How's my Historical Team? (Awesome right!)

[Moranis]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

[Rondo2287]

Question, if running two seperate offenses in Denver makes AI selfish, and the poster child for "Me first basketball".  What does forcing a guy that coached 23 seasons with the same team to resign, and forcing out a teams head coach and GM make Dwight and Deron?

Magic Johnson forced out a coach

Jordon forced out a coach.


Is this a new thing for top line players?  


Does anyone blame Howard for being unhappy with the basketball minds that put that team around him?  Trading for Gilbert?  Bring back Hedo?  Overpaying aging role players?

Jerry Sloan and SVG are two of the best coaches in the NBA over the past 10 years, Jerry for longer than that.  They didnt force them out because of lack of success or ability, its becuase they are both selfish diva's.

Also from most reports Dwight asked for those players around him.  

In my mind, what separates their cases is that it didn't appear to effect their abilities on-court.

AND as pointed out, there was only 'beef' when things were going poorly for them. I guess you could factor this in if you view the respected teams they're on (I haven't looked at the roster), but I don't see it impacting rankings that much - if the team is bad, maybe they'll be slightly worse

EDIT: Also, who are your sources, Rondo? Dwight never EVER asked for SVG's dismissal.

Honsetly im not sure it will effect WDLEEHI's team to much, I actually really like the players that he surounded his two diva's with because I think those other guys will help reduce drama.  

[Rondo2287]

Question, if running two seperate offenses in Denver makes AI selfish, and the poster child for "Me first basketball".  What does forcing a guy that coached 23 seasons with the same team to resign, and forcing out a teams head coach and GM make Dwight and Deron?

Magic Johnson forced out a coach

Jordon forced out a coach.


Is this a new thing for top line players?  


Does anyone blame Howard for being unhappy with the basketball minds that put that team around him?  Trading for Gilbert?  Bring back Hedo?  Overpaying aging role players?

Jerry Sloan and SVG are two of the best coaches in the NBA over the past 10 years, Jerry for longer than that.  They didnt force them out because of lack of success or ability, its becuase they are both selfish diva's.

Also from most reports Dwight asked for those players around him. 

Isn't this the 2nd time Stan has been forced out?


This is why I am make the player choices, not Dwight. 

But what happens when dwight starts to pout when he doesnt have his Binkies around and he demands you trade for them?

I don't have to worry about that.  I built a team around him that is going to win.

you had better hope so or you will probably wind up without a job.

[Bahku]

If you're making a statistical argument for AI you can't discount his high turnovers and his lousy FG% / efficiency.

Actually, high trunover rates are common with most players who pass the ball a great deal, as is evident with almost any other prominent PG or SG of our time, (AI's TO rate: 3.6/game for his career, Magic Johnson's: 3.9). Turnover rate really just supports the fact that he was a passer.

An assist to turnover ratio of 7.9 : 4.6 is very bad, though.

But weren't we talking about his willingness to share the ball?

Besides, if Rondo were scoring 30.7 points/game, I think we'd all live with a bit higher turnover-to-assist ratio.

We would be upset because the Celtics have shown to be a better team when Rondo is passing the ball versus trying to be a volume scorer. 


Not to mention AI is no where close to the passer Rondo is.

Yeah, he avreages a whole 1.9 more assists/game, 0.9 fewer TOs, while scoring 15.9 fewer points.

Thankfully we haven't needed Rondo to be a volume scorer ... yet.

If we ever do, we'll be in deep doo-doo.

Very few perfectly balanced players in the history of this game, but AI was far from the ball-hog he's been made out as.

[Bahku]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

[GreenFaith1819]

I've read some of the AI concerns.

In fairness to him, though - in THIS format, couldn't we all agree that his turnovers/assists ration would NOT be quite as high than say those PHI and DEN teams he was on?

I mean - AI's team in THIS format features Mitch Richmond and Amar'e Prime, right?

Just like I made a similar argument for DRose's team a few days ago - "If you have the teammates, you will/can pass the ball"......

"You WILL be a better player than you already were", IMO.

That us what makes these games SO FUN. This is also why I asked about drafting Coaches here, too, like we've done in the past.

Another example of how teams can be constructed - Take for instance my team, here.

Has KG EVER played with a talented center like Yao Ming?

To me, that is almost like one of my favorite comic books that I read when I was young - called 'Marvel Teamup"

[Moranis]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

but your analysis has been comparing him to other shooting guards, when he should be compared to other point guards.

And Stephon Marbury averaged over 8 assists for 7 of his first 9 seasons (the other two were over 7), and most people would call him selfish as a player.  Looking at assist totals and using them as an example of an unselfish player is quite misleading so I'd be careful there.

[StartOrien]

This was really hard to do, and probably worthless because I'm sure the minute breakdown would change significantly based on match up but this is an idea of how I'd use my team.  

C: Vlade Divac (35)/ Chris Webber (13 ) / Theo Ratliff
PF: Chris Webber (22) / Kenyon Martin (11) / Lamar Odom (15)
SF: Shawn Marion (35) / Andre Iguodala (7) / Lamar Odom (6) / Toni Kukoc
SG: Manu Ginobli (35) / Andre Iguodala (13 ) / Jason Richardson
PG: Baron Davis (30 )/ Stephon Marbury (10) / Kirk Hinrich (8 )

I know some people will suggest Marion should get some minutes at the 4. I'm not sure it'll matter that much what 'position' he's listed at, as he'll share some minutes on the court with Odom (whose more likely to play like a 3)

[Bahku]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

but your analysis has been comparing him to other shooting guards, when he should be compared to other point guards.

And Stephon Marbury averaged over 8 assists for 7 of his first 9 seasons (the other two were over 7), and most people would call him selfish as a player.  Looking at assist totals and using them as an example of an unselfish player is quite misleading so I'd be careful there.

No, I haven't just been comparing SGs, I've been comparing point guards, too ... please read my whole posts, not just part, (Rondo, Magic, etc.). And assist totals, when talking about passing, is one of the least misleading stats there is.

Thing is, you'll never see me defending his off-court antics, or how he's handled his personal life, or some of the decisions he's made, but those things aren't a part of the fantasy draft thing, and I still have not seen proof of the horribly selfish player who doesn't pass the ball or help make his team and team-mates better.

And as GF so pointed out, the team I've built around him here is a team more condusive to development of a cohesive unit and defensive strength.

Yes, his assist/turnover ratio wasn't great, but every player has shortcomings, and I'll take the trade-off there and keep a guy who was an NBA MVP, Rookie-of-the-Year, eleven-time All-Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Champion, 3-time NBA Steals Leader, 2-time NBA All-Star MVP, and three-time All-NBA First Team.

[wdleehi]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

but your analysis has been comparing him to other shooting guards, when he should be compared to other point guards.

And Stephon Marbury averaged over 8 assists for 7 of his first 9 seasons (the other two were over 7), and most people would call him selfish as a player.  Looking at assist totals and using them as an example of an unselfish player is quite misleading so I'd be careful there.

No, I haven't just been comparing SGs, I've been comparing point guards, too ... please read my whole posts, not just part, (Rondo, Magic, etc.). And assist totals, when talking about passing, is one of the least misleading stats there is.

Thing is, you'll never see me defending his off-court antics, or how he's handled his personal life, or some of the decisions he's made, but those things aren't a part of the fantasy draft thing, and I still have not seen proof of the horribly selfish player who doesn't pass the ball or help make his team and team-mates better.

And as GF so pointed out, the team I've built around him here is a team more condusive to development of a cohesive unit and defensive strength.

Yes, his assist/turnover ratio wasn't great, but every player has shortcomings, and I'll take the trade-off there and keep a guy who was an NBA MVP, Rookie-of-the-Year, eleven-time All-Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Champion, 3-time NBA Steals Leader, 2-time NBA All-Star MVP, and three-time All-NBA First Team.

And a 2 time quitter when it didn't go his way.

[Bahku]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

but your analysis has been comparing him to other shooting guards, when he should be compared to other point guards.

And Stephon Marbury averaged over 8 assists for 7 of his first 9 seasons (the other two were over 7), and most people would call him selfish as a player.  Looking at assist totals and using them as an example of an unselfish player is quite misleading so I'd be careful there.

No, I haven't just been comparing SGs, I've been comparing point guards, too ... please read my whole posts, not just part, (Rondo, Magic, etc.). And assist totals, when talking about passing, is one of the least misleading stats there is.

Thing is, you'll never see me defending his off-court antics, or how he's handled his personal life, or some of the decisions he's made, but those things aren't a part of the fantasy draft thing, and I still have not seen proof of the horribly selfish player who doesn't pass the ball or help make his team and team-mates better.

And as GF so pointed out, the team I've built around him here is a team more condusive to development of a cohesive unit and defensive strength.

Yes, his assist/turnover ratio wasn't great, but every player has shortcomings, and I'll take the trade-off there and keep a guy who was an NBA MVP, Rookie-of-the-Year, eleven-time All-Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Champion, 3-time NBA Steals Leader, 2-time NBA All-Star MVP, and three-time All-NBA First Team.

And a 2 time quitter when it didn't go his way.

Oh come on, man, there was a lot more to his leaving than that, and far from all his doing.

And if you want to go the route of players complaining when things weren't going great, well, that would be an incredibly long list, with a couple of players from your own team, I might add.

That's another one of those generic "I hate Iverson" lines ... it really has no bearing on a fantasy team, or it's success/failure ... the things I listed here do.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Is there a possibility that AI shoots too much because his teammates doesn't want to shoot?  As Stephen A always said when he said he interviewed AI? Because, on this team, I don't think his teammates will shy away from shooting.

 I've seen some prime AI games where he was sharing the basketball, to an extent.

[GreenFaith1819]

Is there a possibility that AI shoots too much because his teammates doesn't want to shoot?  As Stephen A always said when he said he interviewed AI? Because, on this team, I don't think his teammates will shy away from shooting.

 I've seen some prime AI games where he was sharing the basketball, to an extent.

Additionally, one has to remember that the PHI AI team had Dikembe and.............who?

Who else on those PHI's teams would help AI score the ball?

And the DEN AI team?

Carmelo Anthony (while an excellent player, but a volume shooter sometimes), and Chauncey Billups in decline?

IMO, AI was a great player on those DEN teams (as well as the PHI teams), but with DEN he actually had some scoring assistance.

If I'm not mistaken (can't pull up the stats right now), he was an overall better player in DEN because he HAD better teammates.

AI (along with my ill-fated John Stockton pick ), was on my list of PGs to draft. I went with Chauncey Prime because he not only had won a championship, but he did everything VERY well. I loved that trait with Chauncey.

But AI was on my shortlist for a while.

[KCattheStripe]

Your Boston Celtics:

PG: Chris Paul ( 08-09) Tyreke Evans (09-10), Devin Harris (08-09)

SG: Vince Carter (00-01) Reggie Lewis (91-92)

SF: Jamal Mashburn (02-03) James Posey (03-04)

PF: Dirk Nowitzki (05-06) Juwan Howard (95-96) Antawn Jamison (07-08)

C: Marc Gasol (11-12) Andrew Bogut (07-08) Kendrick Perkins (08-09)

[Moranis]

The problem with Iverson is, he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he was small and not a very good shooter.  Sure if you could a shooting guard with almost 8 assists a game you would take it, but you would also want that shooting guard to shoot better than 30.8% from three whose eFG% was just 45%.  It should also be noted that that year, Iverson was clearly the PG for the Sixers, so I think there is a problem with using that season and then putting Iverson in as a shooting guard as he was a PG that year.

Iverson is my starting POINT guard, and listed as such.

but your analysis has been comparing him to other shooting guards, when he should be compared to other point guards.

And Stephon Marbury averaged over 8 assists for 7 of his first 9 seasons (the other two were over 7), and most people would call him selfish as a player.  Looking at assist totals and using them as an example of an unselfish player is quite misleading so I'd be careful there.

No, I haven't just been comparing SGs, I've been comparing point guards, too ... please read my whole posts, not just part, (Rondo, Magic, etc.). And assist totals, when talking about passing, is one of the least misleading stats there is.

Thing is, you'll never see me defending his off-court antics, or how he's handled his personal life, or some of the decisions he's made, but those things aren't a part of the fantasy draft thing, and I still have not seen proof of the horribly selfish player who doesn't pass the ball or help make his team and team-mates better.

And as GF so pointed out, the team I've built around him here is a team more condusive to development of a cohesive unit and defensive strength.

Yes, his assist/turnover ratio wasn't great, but every player has shortcomings, and I'll take the trade-off there and keep a guy who was an NBA MVP, Rookie-of-the-Year, eleven-time All-Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Champion, 3-time NBA Steals Leader, 2-time NBA All-Star MVP, and three-time All-NBA First Team.

And a 2 time quitter when it didn't go his way.

Oh come on, man, there was a lot more to his leaving than that, and far from all his doing.

And if you want to go the route of players complaining when things weren't going great, well, that would be an incredibly long list, with a couple of players from your own team, I might add.

That's another one of those generic "I hate Iverson" lines ... it really has no bearing on a fantasy team, or it's success/failure ... the things I listed here do.

Iverson totally flamed out of Denver when he had to share the ball with another ball dominant player and that is after Philly tired of him and traded him mid-season to Denver.  Iverson then quit on the Pistons when he didn't get his way (and the team was forced to remove him from the team).  He signs with Memphis to come off the bench and then complains about coming off the bench and left the team.  All of that absolutely is relevant to this sort of thing where a lot of alpha dog personalities have to coexist.  Iverson has consistently shown that when things don't go his way he whines and complains and if they don't get "fixed" he quits on his team.  

Iverson was a great player, but in this sort of thing, he isn't the sort of player you want.  He is much too alpha dog to really fit in with a team.  I can't blame you for drafting, his talent is unquestioned, but there is a reason he lasted as long as he did.