How's my Historical Team? (Awesome right!)

[StartOrien]

Refresh my memory, did Jamal Mashburn suffer some horrific injury that cut his career short? I was shocked, SHOCKED I SAY, to see his numbers were as good as they were at the end of his career.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, some interesting arguments made for/against AI.

I still believe he'd flourish on the team he has in THIS format, though.

Sports Illustrated ran one of these Historical Drafts last year - I think they called theirs "Ultimate Draft." Once they drafted their players, they made use of some fancy software that plugged in every player's statistics, tendencies, etc - and came out with likely scenarios, playoff seedings, champions, etc.

That software generated some VERY interesting scenarios - and they all made sense.

I can't remember this program that SI used for the life of me, but I'm betting that once everything was accounted for, AI would put up solid numbers in THIS format.

My memory of AI was that not only Larry Brown loved the guy, but our own RED AUERBACH, did, too.

So with Red, I suppose that even HE realized that if you got a player as talented as AI in the RIGHT setting, he'd flourish.

I just believe that when it's all said and done, Allen Iverson will be in the HOF.

Dennis Rodman made it in - and remember he had BETTER teammates, too - in their primes.

[Rondo2287]

They were traded for each other in the middle of the season. 


Detroit went from a contender to collapsing.

Denver went from pretender to a threat. 

Ahem....

Correct.


These players win or lose titles based on the teammates.

Its really not a contradiction, both Denver and Detroit had ensemble teams. Lots of talented players but no MVP or even true All-NBA caliber guys anymore.

Losing a facilitating and efficient PG (who was also a better defender) from one group to the other had a massive impact. The impact was out of proportion to the actual talent difference due to the make up of the teams.

Well I think there is a bit of a contradiction there, but I also think different players age differently.  Some drop off significantly very fast and others age gracefully.  I saw this as a perfect representation of that.  AI was the more talented player but his skillset took a big hit as he aged because of the beating his body took over the years.

I don't even think its age, I don't think his skillset/stule is suited for team play with other talented offensive players.

Iverson wasn't pushed out because his talent had fallen so far off the map in NBA. He was out of the NBA because he refused to play a complimentary role.

I agree but I think he was asked to play a complimentary roll because his talent had fallen off.  AI in his prime shouldnt play a complimentary roll, he should be a top 2 option offensively.

[Fafnir]

They were traded for each other in the middle of the season. 


Detroit went from a contender to collapsing.

Denver went from pretender to a threat. 

Ahem....

Correct.


These players win or lose titles based on the teammates.

Its really not a contradiction, both Denver and Detroit had ensemble teams. Lots of talented players but no MVP or even true All-NBA caliber guys anymore.

Losing a facilitating and efficient PG (who was also a better defender) from one group to the other had a massive impact. The impact was out of proportion to the actual talent difference due to the make up of the teams.

Well I think there is a bit of a contradiction there, but I also think different players age differently.  Some drop off significantly very fast and others age gracefully.  I saw this as a perfect representation of that.  AI was the more talented player but his skillset took a big hit as he aged because of the beating his body took over the years.

I don't even think its age, I don't think his skillset/stule is suited for team play with other talented offensive players.

Iverson wasn't pushed out because his talent had fallen so far off the map in NBA. He was out of the NBA because he refused to play a complimentary role.

I agree but I think he was asked to play a complimentary roll because his talent had fallen off.  AI in his prime shouldnt play a complimentary roll, he should be a top 2 option offensively.

Honestly in this league I don't think he'd be more than a third option. (even that might be pushing it)

That's not something Iverson ever showed he was capable of handling.

[Bahku]

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

A big part of the issue with Iverson is that he didn't make other players better around him.

He always was an individual rather than a team player. He racked up assists not by running the pick and roll and creating dunks for others, but by holding the ball and dribbling till there wasn't any air in it.

Did you watch him in college? You honestly think he didn't make his team-mates better? And why did Deke's scoring numbers suddenly jump when he went from Atlanta to playing with AI in Philly from 2000 to 2002, yet playing the same, (or even fewer), minutes?

Third option?!? Wow.

I guess you didn't watch him play much.

[KCattheStripe]

Refresh my memory, did Jamal Mashburn suffer some horrific injury that cut his career short? I was shocked, SHOCKED I SAY, to see his numbers were as good as they were at the end of his career.

Knee issues that flared up the following year.

[Moranis]

Well, couldn't we make a similar argument for Lebron? D Rose? etc...

Nope because there isn't a consistent pattern of those teams trading scorers because they couldn't get along with the star.  The only player Cleveland traded away was Ricky Davis (who clearly was a head case as evident by all his stops, including Boston).  Chicago hasn't traded away any scorers because of Rose and certainly no one mid-season.

To some extent, those players named have had myriad lineup changes, trades, in an effort to build a cohesive unit.

All teams undergo lineup changes.  I mean Oklahoma City added Perk mid-season last year for Jeff Green for basketball reasons.  They didn't trade away Green because he didn't get along with Durant.  They also still have Westbrook and Harden and didn't trade them away because they couldn't get along with Durant.  Contending teams trade away role players, they don't trade away their second best player, like Philly did year after year because of Iverson.  

CP3, too.

CP3's had Tyson Prime, David West Prime, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Caron Butler, etc - and the farthest he's been in the playoffs, still, is to the WCF's.

What does that have to do with anything?  West left as a free agent, Paul and Griffin get along fine.  There weren't these mass of mid-season trades involving Paul's teams where the Hornets got rid of their second best player because him and Paul couldn't get along.  

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

Who said anything about fairing well.  Iverson's Philly teams were actually pretty good, the question is how Iverson would fit with a team full of superstars in a league full of superstar teams, and in that I think he would fair incredibly poorly based on how he interacted with other "star" players throughout his entire career.  

[StartOrien]

Your Boston Celtics:

PG: Chris Paul ( 08-09) Tyreke Evans (09-10), Devin Harris (08-09)

SG: Vince Carter (00-01) Reggie Lewis (91-92)

SF: Jamal Mashburn (02-03) James Posey (03-04)

PF: Dirk Nowitzki (05-06) Juwan Howard (95-96) Antawn Jamison (07-08)

C: Marc Gasol (11-12) Andrew Bogut (07-08) Kendrick Perkins (08-09)

I agree with you all. This team leaves you speechless.

Would've liked to see you add some speed at either the center of power forward. I don't think you needed much, but something to counter faster lineups with in case team-speed was too much for you. Had you had that piece I'd say you'd be the team to beat. As it is, you're still a very, very good team.

Also, Tyreke Evans is the worst

[Fafnir]

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

A big part of the issue with Iverson is that he didn't make other players better around him.

He always was an individual rather than a team player. He racked up assists not by running the pick and roll and creating dunks for others, but by holding the ball and dribbling till there wasn't any air in it.

Did you watch him in college? You honestly think he didn't make his team-mates better? And why did Deke's scoring numbers suddenly jump when he went from Atlanta to playing with AI in Philly from 2000 to 2002, yet playing the same, (or even fewer), minutes?

Third option?!? Wow.

I guess you didn't watch him play much.

He didn't make his team mates better, he was always a scorer, not a facilitator on offense. That's fine you can be a scoring PG and succeed in basketball but as far as scoring PGs go Iverson was particularly inefficient.

His best Philly teams were always poor offensive teams that went as far as their defense could take them, they were like that in large part because Iverson's ball domination and inability to play with other talented scorers.

The biggest reason Mtumbo improved his scoring averages was that in Philly they had him crash the offensive glass more. This gave him more putbacks, easy shots, and free throw attempts. Iverson drawing help certainly would be a part of that (forcing a smaller player to box out Deke).

I watched Iverson play a lot, never liked his game. It was always selfish individual play.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, couldn't we make a similar argument for Lebron? D Rose? etc...

Nope because there isn't a consistent pattern of those teams trading scorers because they couldn't get along with the star.  The only player Cleveland traded away was Ricky Davis (who clearly was a head case as evident by all his stops, including Boston).  Chicago hasn't traded away any scorers because of Rose and certainly no one mid-season.

To some extent, those players named have had myriad lineup changes, trades, in an effort to build a cohesive unit.

All teams undergo lineup changes.  I mean Oklahoma City added Perk mid-season last year for Jeff Green for basketball reasons.  They didn't trade away Green because he didn't get along with Durant.  They also still have Westbrook and Harden and didn't trade them away because they couldn't get along with Durant.  Contending teams trade away role players, they don't trade away their second best player, like Philly did year after year because of Iverson.  

CP3, too.

CP3's had Tyson Prime, David West Prime, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Caron Butler, etc - and the farthest he's been in the playoffs, still, is to the WCF's.

What does that have to do with anything?  West left as a free agent, Paul and Griffin get along fine.  There weren't these mass of mid-season trades involving Paul's teams where the Hornets got rid of their second best player because him and Paul couldn't get along.  

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

Who said anything about fairing well.  Iverson's Philly teams were actually pretty good, the question is how Iverson would fit with a team full of superstars in a league full of superstar teams, and in that I think he would fair incredibly poorly based on how he interacted with other "star" players throughout his entire career.  

So you REALLY believe that Allen Iverson would perform poorly with a team of Mitch Richmond and Amar'e Prime?

I'd like to think that THOSE two were better than ANY other combo that Allen Iverson played with.

IMO, it is just TOO arbitrary to come up with a summary to say that Allen Iverson wouldn't flourish in THIS format. If I were AI, in THIS format, I'd wake up with a smile on my face every day knowing I had Mitch and amar'e to carry the load.

That's why even Micheal Jordan's greatness can be called into question in some regards. The man played with one of the best SF's of all time in Scottie....CERTAINLY the BEST Defensive SF to ever play the game.

Look at Michael's teams throughout his career - the ONE constant has been Scottie and Phil. Everyone else (including Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Tony Kukoc) have been a variable.

Too bad AI never had Scottie.

[wdleehi]

Well, couldn't we make a similar argument for Lebron? D Rose? etc...

Nope because there isn't a consistent pattern of those teams trading scorers because they couldn't get along with the star.  The only player Cleveland traded away was Ricky Davis (who clearly was a head case as evident by all his stops, including Boston).  Chicago hasn't traded away any scorers because of Rose and certainly no one mid-season.

To some extent, those players named have had myriad lineup changes, trades, in an effort to build a cohesive unit.

All teams undergo lineup changes.  I mean Oklahoma City added Perk mid-season last year for Jeff Green for basketball reasons.  They didn't trade away Green because he didn't get along with Durant.  They also still have Westbrook and Harden and didn't trade them away because they couldn't get along with Durant.  Contending teams trade away role players, they don't trade away their second best player, like Philly did year after year because of Iverson.  

CP3, too.

CP3's had Tyson Prime, David West Prime, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Caron Butler, etc - and the farthest he's been in the playoffs, still, is to the WCF's.

What does that have to do with anything?  West left as a free agent, Paul and Griffin get along fine.  There weren't these mass of mid-season trades involving Paul's teams where the Hornets got rid of their second best player because him and Paul couldn't get along.  

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

Who said anything about fairing well.  Iverson's Philly teams were actually pretty good, the question is how Iverson would fit with a team full of superstars in a league full of superstar teams, and in that I think he would fair incredibly poorly based on how he interacted with other "star" players throughout his entire career.  

So you REALLY believe that Allen Iverson would perform poorly with a team of Mitch Richmond and Amar'e Prime?

I'd like to think that THOSE two were better than ANY other combo that Allen Iverson played with.

IMO, it is just TOO arbitrary to come up with a summary to say that Allen Iverson wouldn't flourish in THIS format. If I were AI, in THIS format, I'd wake up with a smile on my face every day knowing I had Mitch and amar'e to carry the load.

That's why even Micheal Jordan's greatness can be called into question in some regards. The man played with one of the best SF's of all time in Scottie....CERTAINLY the BEST Defensive SF to ever play the game.

Look at Michael's teams throughout his career - the ONE constant has been Scottie and Phil. Everyone else (including Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Tony Kukoc) have been a variable.

Too bad AI never had Scottie.

They will never get enough touches.

[Bahku]

Well, couldn't we make a similar argument for Lebron? D Rose? etc...

Nope because there isn't a consistent pattern of those teams trading scorers because they couldn't get along with the star.  The only player Cleveland traded away was Ricky Davis (who clearly was a head case as evident by all his stops, including Boston).  Chicago hasn't traded away any scorers because of Rose and certainly no one mid-season.

To some extent, those players named have had myriad lineup changes, trades, in an effort to build a cohesive unit.

All teams undergo lineup changes.  I mean Oklahoma City added Perk mid-season last year for Jeff Green for basketball reasons.  They didn't trade away Green because he didn't get along with Durant.  They also still have Westbrook and Harden and didn't trade them away because they couldn't get along with Durant.  Contending teams trade away role players, they don't trade away their second best player, like Philly did year after year because of Iverson. 

CP3, too.

CP3's had Tyson Prime, David West Prime, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Caron Butler, etc - and the farthest he's been in the playoffs, still, is to the WCF's.

What does that have to do with anything?  West left as a free agent, Paul and Griffin get along fine.  There weren't these mass of mid-season trades involving Paul's teams where the Hornets got rid of their second best player because him and Paul couldn't get along. 

In other words, there is definitely more to AI's teams not fairing well than what is on the surface.

Who said anything about fairing well.  Iverson's Philly teams were actually pretty good, the question is how Iverson would fit with a team full of superstars in a league full of superstar teams, and in that I think he would fair incredibly poorly based on how he interacted with other "star" players throughout his entire career. 

Really?

Which stars?

Because there were very few "stars" that he didn't get along with or have trouble with.

There were far more stars that he did work well with, (he and Deke were best friends).

There are soooooooooooo many players in this draft who have had similar issues with others, including coaches.

Tere's just a whole different standard being applied here because of negative sentiment, bad press, and a popular dislike for a guy because of his problems outside the game.

The issues pretaining to interaction with team-mates and coaches have always been blown out of proportion, (though he did have beefs with owners, and legitimate ones at times).

[KCattheStripe]

Your Boston Celtics:

PG: Chris Paul ( 08-09) Tyreke Evans (09-10), Devin Harris (08-09)

SG: Vince Carter (00-01) Reggie Lewis (91-92)

SF: Jamal Mashburn (02-03) James Posey (03-04)

PF: Dirk Nowitzki (05-06) Juwan Howard (95-96) Antawn Jamison (07-08)

C: Marc Gasol (11-12) Andrew Bogut (07-08) Kendrick Perkins (08-09)

I agree with you all. This team leaves you speechless.

Would've liked to see you add some speed at either the center of power forward. I don't think you needed much, but something to counter faster lineups with in case team-speed was too much for you. Had you had that piece I'd say you'd be the team to beat. As it is, you're still a very, very good team.

Also, Tyreke Evans is the worst

Yeah, I'm going to lose a track meet amongst bigs, but given that I was more scared of the Shaqs and Ewings than I was Dwight Howards and Robinsons, I opted for bulk. I feel like in the playoffs I win a lot more low post battles because of the depth and size I have at the bigs.

[GreenFaith1819]

But Wdleehi - my own Chauncey, for the year I'm choosing - only averaged 6 assists.

He was still a very good distributor. For my team, we are fortunate enough to have exceptional distributors in KG and Yao, among others.

It is still too subjective for me to believe that AI's teammates in this format wouldn't get enough touches.

[wdleehi]

But Wdleehi - my own Chauncey, for the year I'm choosing - only averaged 6 assists.

He was still a very good distributor. For my team, we are fortunate enough to have exceptional distributors in KG and Yao, among others.

It is still too subjective for me to believe that AI's teammates in this format wouldn't get enough touches.

Assists are a deceptive stat.  On a team that shared the ball, one player may not average a lot of assist.  His job was to start the offense and be a part of it.