Hoopsworld: Rondo for Gasol?

[birdbrady]

I haven't really read through this thread, but I'm going to post my thoughts on a 'Rondo-for-Gasol' swap, which I feel has legs.

First off, Danny has always had a high opinion of Gasol.  Back, I believe, in 2007, when Pierce was injured - there were serious rumors that we were going to trade Paul for a then 26 year old Pau.

Now, this deal on paper is tempting.  We are still a very underrated team here, and I believe we are 'in the mix' to an extent.  However, as currently constituted we are not a real contender because we don't close well at the end of games and execute when it matters (partially due to Rondo), and more importantly we are a below average rebounding team.  To quote a Hall of Fame Lakers head coach - "No rebounds, no rings" (that was Pat Riley if you don't want to look it up.)  Having Gasol would solve that almost immediately.  Gasol is still a great rebounder.  In terms of executing at the end of games, we'd have four plus passers at their position, including two of the five best passing bigs in the league with KG and Gasol.  The whole league is wide open, and this year is really going to come down to who stays healthy.  Never has an NBA season been more a crapshoot.  I still, in my heart of hearts believe the Miami-Chicago ECF will decide the title.  But as we have seen, some big names this year have been dropping like flies so a Rose injury (who's already had minor injuries himself) changes the whole complextion of the conference, much like what happened when we lost Garnett for the year in 2009 - as that Celtics team was well on their way to meeting the Lakers in the Finals again.  A good, but not great Orlando team represented the conference that year, and that very well could happen again this year.  I know Danny and Doc believe that too.  And that's what it'd even interest me to take a run at it with 4 HOFrs in your starting lineup, with two of them still in their primes (Pierce and Gasol), and one still playing at a high level (Allen).

However, after consideration - I just don't feel Rondo for Gasol is the play.  I'd be more interested in Gasol if I firmly believed we were a player away from being no-question-about-it top three contenders.  That *could* be the case, but it's a coinflip at best.  If it doesn't work, and all it gets us is a second round exit - this team is all of a sudden barren of any talent on the right side of 30.  Rondo is overrated by some Celtics fans, and I believe he should be dealt in the right deal.  He has some flaws that I just don't feel like you can win with him being your second best player, and absolutely not your first.  This team doesn't execute well at the end of games because of him.  They play one style of basketball for 42 minutes, and then have to play another style for the last 6 because he can't shoot, he can't make his FTs, and the defense tightens up so his knack for the fancy pass comes with second thoughts because you can't be that careless with the basketball at crucial times.  Back in 2008, Rondo was not even on the floor at the end of the games of, BY FAR, the two most important wins of those playoffs - Game 7 ECSF v. Clev (House, Ray, Pierce, Brown, Garnett)  and Game 4 Finals @ LA (House, Ray, Pierce, Posey, Garnett.)  Oddly enough, those were the two best games in which we closed the deal.  I think there's some of us that overrate Rondo, and some of us that are frustrated with him like me.  After the 2009 and ESPECIALLY the 2010 Playoffs, we all felt Rondo was the next generation Celtic that would be the bridge to another championship Celtic team - just as how Havlicek was the bridge guy from the Russell teams to the Cowens teams.  But Rondo just isn't that guy.  Too many flaws, and he has to be on the perfect team, where he's the third best player (like a Kobe-Bynum Lakers team, more in that in a moment.)

Rondo should be dealt in the right deal.  He should either be dealt to a team that overvalues him for younger pieces so this team can acquire multiple assets during its rebuild - OR, you wait for another Chris Paul type star to come on the market, and hope that said team values some of our other assets and takes them in a Rondo package for Superstar X (like New Orleans was going to do until they worked out that original deal with the Lakers and Rockets at the last moment.)

Also, Rondo on LA I believe would be perfect for them, AND perfect for Rondo.  They already have one of the great closers of all time (hint: his initials are KB), and already have a franchise center in place.  Bynum has developed into one of the dominant bigs in the game.  I see him being like this for at least six years.  Rondo would have a perfect big man running mate in Bynum to run the floor with.  Even after Bryant fades away, the Lakers finding another dynamite wing (doesn't have to be an all-timer like Kobe - just an athletic wing, like a Rudy Gay) would have them back as one of the elite teams immediately.

Also, for those of you who think the Lakers are dealing Dwight for Bynum - I don't see it happening.  The Lakers owner, Jim Buss, loves Bynum and is even hesitating trading him for Dwight straight up much less Bynum AND Gasol for Dwight (which it is rumored that Kupchak actually wants to deal both.)  Dwight is going to be a Net.  Since the Magic aren't getting back both Gasol and Bynum, they are waiting until the conclusion of the All Star Game (being played in Orlando, and they don't want Dwight coming back in another uniform) - and they will most likely send him to New Jersey.  The Nets can take back for more bad contracts than the Lakers can (who only have that TPE), as they have large expirings (Okur, Humphries), and can throw in more top notch draft picks (their own, and I believe they own a Rockets first rounder which I think is only top 10 protected.)  Also, Dwight's #1 choice is New Jersey (Brooklyn.)

But then, if you're LA.  If you're able to swing Gasol for Rondo - that is probably better.  What would you rather have, Kobe+Dwight and a roster full of overpaid, and mostly below average role players, or Rondo-Kobe-Bynum? Kobe+Dwight plus all their other junk (Fisher, Artest, Walton) leaves them with a roster much like this Knicks roster.  They'd be locked into a five seed for the forseeable future and won't be able to do anything until guys like Artest's contract expires.  Or do you take a run with Rondo (not being paid the max), Kobe and Bynum?

So all in all, this isn't the right deal for Rondo - trading him for a win-now player in Gasol when it's just a coinflip at best if it'd make us a legit contender this year (despite the fact we VERY WELL could be one, the odds just aren't worth it).  And to top it off, we'd very well help our hated rivals who are just one championship behind us.

One word:

No

[fairweatherfan]

Only if we can get Fisher back too, just to see how many posters' heads explode. 

Seriously though, I don't see it happening - Rondo's just too good of an asset to ship to our biggest rival for a questionable shot at one more ring.

[LooseCannon]

How many times have we traded with the Lakers?

The only one I remember was Mihm for Payton and we got the draft pick that became Rondo as a throw in.

At least three times.  I say "at least" because I am not sure if they list multi-team trades.

As I noted in another thread, I suspect that the basis for this rumor might be that Ainge tried to get it on the Chris Paul trade, possibly trying to take over Houston's role after the veto.  If Ainge couldn't get the Hornets to bite on a Rondo-centric package for Chris Paul, then maybe he could effectively trade that package to the Lakers for Gasol, who would then add more value and swap it to New Orleans for CP3.

[Tai]

Just heard this on the Sports Hub. Sounds like the smoke is starting to blow around as the deadline looms near. Doesn't make much sense for us, unless we intend on going after Deron or ERic Bledsoe in the offseason. Still doesn't make sense...Uh, and trading with the Lakers...just signifies a changing of the guard as we obviously don't expect to see each other in the finals this year.

Three is no real smoke here.  It is completely speculation by a blogger, with very little to go on (and IMO, just misinterpreted what was meant as a subtle dig at Stern for killing the Chris Paul deal).

I think it is a fascinating discussion of whether this deal makes any sense, but this is no more a legit rumor than anything found in the trade ideas thread that involved someone just playing around with the trade machine.

Actually, if you look on twitter, you will see that Eric Pincus has stuck to his story that the C's are interested in Gasol.

EricPincus Eric Pincus
Actually @LarryCoon - I found the sourced info on Boston interest before I noticed the Kupchak comment

This also means that he had the source anyways...BUT..

EricPincus Eric Pincus
@
@Mr_Rosenthal if you read my article the source says it's the Celtics who want Gasol -I'm just using Kupcak's own words to translate 2 Rondo

So, all he really claims (according to his sources) is that the C's want Gasol, but he's trying to put it together that the C's may want to give up Rondo for Gasol.

I understand that Eric Pincus isn't the most credible writer/blogger out there, and I wouldn't lose sleep if this trade ends up never happening, but let me put it this way; if the Perkins trade was rumored before it was confirmed, would you have tried to downplay that in anyway you can, too? Cause that's what I sense a lot of people doing now, and I dunno about you, but "Oh I don't like it, that means the rumor is BS" can only go so far in the grand scheme of things.

[csfansince60s]

I haven't really read through this thread, but I'm going to post my thoughts on a 'Rondo-for-Gasol' swap, which I feel has legs.

First off, Danny has always had a high opinion of Gasol.  Back, I believe, in 2007, when Pierce was injured - there were serious rumors that we were going to trade Paul for a then 26 year old Pau.

Now, this deal on paper is tempting.  We are still a very underrated team here, and I believe we are 'in the mix' to an extent.  However, as currently constituted we are not a real contender because we don't close well at the end of games and execute when it matters (partially due to Rondo), and more importantly we are a below average rebounding team.  To quote a Hall of Fame Lakers head coach - "No rebounds, no rings" (that was Pat Riley if you don't want to look it up.)  Having Gasol would solve that almost immediately.  Gasol is still a great rebounder.  In terms of executing at the end of games, we'd have four plus passers at their position, including two of the five best passing bigs in the league with KG and Gasol.  The whole league is wide open, and this year is really going to come down to who stays healthy.  Never has an NBA season been more a crapshoot.  I still, in my heart of hearts believe the Miami-Chicago ECF will decide the title.  But as we have seen, some big names this year have been dropping like flies so a Rose injury (who's already had minor injuries himself) changes the whole complextion of the conference, much like what happened when we lost Garnett for the year in 2009 - as that Celtics team was well on their way to meeting the Lakers in the Finals again.  A good, but not great Orlando team represented the conference that year, and that very well could happen again this year.  I know Danny and Doc believe that too.  And that's what it'd even interest me to take a run at it with 4 HOFrs in your starting lineup, with two of them still in their primes (Pierce and Gasol), and one still playing at a high level (Allen).

However, after consideration - I just don't feel Rondo for Gasol is the play.  I'd be more interested in Gasol if I firmly believed we were a player away from being no-question-about-it top three contenders.  That *could* be the case, but it's a coinflip at best.  If it doesn't work, and all it gets us is a second round exit - this team is all of a sudden barren of any talent on the right side of 30.  Rondo is overrated by some Celtics fans, and I believe he should be dealt in the right deal.  He has some flaws that I just don't feel like you can win with him being your second best player, and absolutely not your first.  This team doesn't execute well at the end of games because of him.  They play one style of basketball for 42 minutes, and then have to play another style for the last 6 because he can't shoot, he can't make his FTs, and the defense tightens up so his knack for the fancy pass comes with second thoughts because you can't be that careless with the basketball at crucial times.  Back in 2008, Rondo was not even on the floor at the end of the games of, BY FAR, the two most important wins of those playoffs - Game 7 ECSF v. Clev (House, Ray, Pierce, Brown, Garnett)  and Game 4 Finals @ LA (House, Ray, Pierce, Posey, Garnett.)  Oddly enough, those were the two best games in which we closed the deal.  I think there's some of us that overrate Rondo, and some of us that are frustrated with him like me.  After the 2009 and ESPECIALLY the 2010 Playoffs, we all felt Rondo was the next generation Celtic that would be the bridge to another championship Celtic team - just as how Havlicek was the bridge guy from the Russell teams to the Cowens teams.  But Rondo just isn't that guy.  Too many flaws, and he has to be on the perfect team, where he's the third best player (like a Kobe-Bynum Lakers team, more in that in a moment.)

Rondo should be dealt in the right deal.  He should either be dealt to a team that overvalues him for younger pieces so this team can acquire multiple assets during its rebuild - OR, you wait for another Chris Paul type star to come on the market, and hope that said team values some of our other assets and takes them in a Rondo package for Superstar X (like New Orleans was going to do until they worked out that original deal with the Lakers and Rockets at the last moment.)

Also, Rondo on LA I believe would be perfect for them, AND perfect for Rondo.  They already have one of the great closers of all time (hint: his initials are KB), and already have a franchise center in place.  Bynum has developed into one of the dominant bigs in the game.  I see him being like this for at least six years.  Rondo would have a perfect big man running mate in Bynum to run the floor with.  Even after Bryant fades away, the Lakers finding another dynamite wing (doesn't have to be an all-timer like Kobe - just an athletic wing, like a Rudy Gay) would have them back as one of the elite teams immediately.

Also, for those of you who think the Lakers are dealing Dwight for Bynum - I don't see it happening.  The Lakers owner, Jim Buss, loves Bynum and is even hesitating trading him for Dwight straight up much less Bynum AND Gasol for Dwight (which it is rumored that Kupchak actually wants to deal both.)  Dwight is going to be a Net.  Since the Magic aren't getting back both Gasol and Bynum, they are waiting until the conclusion of the All Star Game (being played in Orlando, and they don't want Dwight coming back in another uniform) - and they will most likely send him to New Jersey.  The Nets can take back for more bad contracts than the Lakers can (who only have that TPE), as they have large expirings (Okur, Humphries), and can throw in more top notch draft picks (their own, and I believe they own a Rockets first rounder which I think is only top 10 protected.)  Also, Dwight's #1 choice is New Jersey (Brooklyn.)

But then, if you're LA.  If you're able to swing Gasol for Rondo - that is probably better.  What would you rather have, Kobe+Dwight and a roster full of overpaid, and mostly below average role players, or Rondo-Kobe-Bynum? Kobe+Dwight plus all their other junk (Fisher, Artest, Walton) leaves them with a roster much like this Knicks roster.  They'd be locked into a five seed for the forseeable future and won't be able to do anything until guys like Artest's contract expires.  Or do you take a run with Rondo (not being paid the max), Kobe and Bynum?

So all in all, this isn't the right deal for Rondo - trading him for a win-now player in Gasol when it's just a coinflip at best if it'd make us a legit contender this year (despite the fact we VERY WELL could be one, the odds just aren't worth it).  And to top it off, we'd very well help our hated rivals who are just one championship behind us.

One word:

No

TP for the LONG though well thought out post.

I agree with you on many points, but not on your conclusion.

I would trade Rondo/JO for Gasol and their two number 1st rounders this year.

LA gets a young upper echelon point guard, which they despeartely need on an extremely reasonable contract. They also move a large, long contract and a guy who right now has not been thrilled about his inclusion in trade talks that started at the beginning of the season and continue in Gasol.

LA also gets an expiring in JO and anything performance wise he gives them is gravy. He would do well as a backup to lend stability to a second unit and spell Bynum.

For the above reasons, I would hold out for the first round picks. There are 3-4 very good point guards in the top 30 picks whom we could groom.

[birdbrady]

TP for the LONG though well thought out post.

I agree with you on many points, but not on your conclusion.

I would trade Rondo/JO for Gasol and their two number 1st rounders this year.

I seriously doubt that would be on the table.  At best, I'd see us getting a first, but not both.  The Lakers have arguably the worst roster in the league 4-15.  I watch the Lakers a lot, and lately Goudelock has played well for them.  He looks like a keeper, but outside of that, the rest of their guys are below average at best, and some are downright hideous (Artest, Fisher.)  To top it off, most of them are making way too much money and they are signed for quite some time too.  The Lakers are going to need those firsts to either draft two decent players, or to be able to package them elsewhere to get a decent role player.  They wouldn't throw in two #1s, and trade a 20+ PER 7 footer who still has a lot left in the tank to fill their need a PG.  Although, of course I do see the Lakers doing an even swap (throw in JOs expiring deal too.)  The Lakers desperately - DESPERATELY - need a PG.  Even more than we need a big.  If for no other reason to replace Fisher.  A player I have no idea why he's even in the league, much less starting (and closing) on a team that's trying to win a championship this season.

LA gets a young upper echelon point guard, which they despeartely need on an extremely reasonable contract. They also move a large, long contract and a guy who right now has not been thrilled about his inclusion in trade talks that started at the beginning of the season and continue in Gasol.

LA also gets an expiring in JO and anything performance wise he gives them is gravy. He would do well as a backup to lend stability to a second unit and spell Bynum.

For the above reasons, I would hold out for the first round picks. There are 3-4 very good point guards in the top 30 picks whom we could groom.

I just don't see LA throwing their two #1s to us.  They really need them.  Even if they had Rondo-Kobe-Howard, or Rondo-Kobe-Bynum, the rest of their roster, save Goudelock, is absolutely pathetic.  They lose leads once their bench comes in late in the first, and Brown is forced to play their starters major minutes and by the end of the games (the Philly game on Monday for example), their players are gassed and they can't finish games.  They need those #1s to sure up some serious depth issues that roster has, either through this year's draft or using those picks to package in a trade.

Also, to the point of getting say a #1, let's say the deal was Rondo, JO (his expiring deal to make the #s work) for Gasol and a #1 - this draft is very weak in PGs.  It's cluttered with wings (which is good because we need some athleticism in that aspect), but there aren't any good PGs.  We'd probably have to find a way to trade for a young PG with the picks rather than draft one because there isn't one in this draft that I am aware of.

[csfansince60s]

TP for the LONG though well thought out post.

I agree with you on many points, but not on your conclusion.

I would trade Rondo/JO for Gasol and their two number 1st rounders this year.

...Also, to the point of getting say a #1, let's say the deal was Rondo, JO (his expiring deal to make the #s work) for Gasol and a #1 - this draft is very weak in PGs.  It's cluttered with wings (which is good because we need some athleticism in that aspect), but there aren't any good PGs.  We'd probably have to find a way to trade for a young PG with the picks rather than draft one because there isn't one in this draft that I am aware of.

I would take any of Marshall, Lilard, Kabongo or Wroten. Those 1st three could come in and contribute right away next year. Wroten may take a little longer to develop, but at 6"5" has the most upside. Satoransky is also underrated and long and extremely athletic (he won the European slam-dunk competition) and seasoned and could contribute quickly as could Waiters.

No spectacular (DRose-pgs) but still a lot of talent.

[Chris]

Just heard this on the Sports Hub. Sounds like the smoke is starting to blow around as the deadline looms near. Doesn't make much sense for us, unless we intend on going after Deron or ERic Bledsoe in the offseason. Still doesn't make sense...Uh, and trading with the Lakers...just signifies a changing of the guard as we obviously don't expect to see each other in the finals this year.

Three is no real smoke here.  It is completely speculation by a blogger, with very little to go on (and IMO, just misinterpreted what was meant as a subtle dig at Stern for killing the Chris Paul deal).

I think it is a fascinating discussion of whether this deal makes any sense, but this is no more a legit rumor than anything found in the trade ideas thread that involved someone just playing around with the trade machine.

Actually, if you look on twitter, you will see that Eric Pincus has stuck to his story that the C's are interested in Gasol.

EricPincus Eric Pincus
Actually @LarryCoon - I found the sourced info on Boston interest before I noticed the Kupchak comment

This also means that he had the source anyways...BUT..

EricPincus Eric Pincus
@
@Mr_Rosenthal if you read my article the source says it's the Celtics who want Gasol -I'm just using Kupcak's own words to translate 2 Rondo

So, all he really claims (according to his sources) is that the C's want Gasol, but he's trying to put it together that the C's may want to give up Rondo for Gasol.

I understand that Eric Pincus isn't the most credible writer/blogger out there, and I wouldn't lose sleep if this trade ends up never happening, but let me put it this way; if the Perkins trade was rumored before it was confirmed, would you have tried to downplay that in anyway you can, too? Cause that's what I sense a lot of people doing now, and I dunno about you, but "Oh I don't like it, that means the rumor is BS" can only go so far in the grand scheme of things.

That's fine.  But like I mentioned before, it should be no shock that Danny would have interest in trading for one of the top big men in the game.  If they didn't have interest in a deal like that, I would be more surprised.  

And let me be clear.  I am not downplaying it because I don't like it for the C's.  I think it would be an absolute home run for the C's.  I am downplaying it because I don't think it makes much sense for the Lakers, and because the actual story is VERY weak, and just another case of a reporter putting two and two together to make something out of nothing, in order to grab headlines.

[Vermont Green]

Intriguing but likely more smoke than fire.  It definitely makes some sense that there could be talk of a trade involving Gasol and Rondo but I don't see it being just Rondo and JO.  That is probably not enough.  The Lakers would end up without a PF.  Now Rondo and Bass with maybe something in additon to Gasol coming back (but something less than a 1-round pick I think) seems more reasonable to me from a Laker perspective.  Bass could start at PF and they would still have a reasonable core.

I would definitely be intrigued by this but I think I would look elsewhere to trade Rondo if you are going to trade him.  Like for example Deron Williams although that may be a pipe dream.

[Chris]

OK, here is my new, completely fantasy scenario:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6m8vvqg

Lakers get: Rondo and JO
Clippers get: Ray
Suns get: Foye, Cook, Bledsoe, and cash (because they love cash)
C's get: Gasol, and Nash

C's lineup:
Nash, Dooling
Pietrus, Bradley, Moore
Pierce, Sasha, Daniels
KG, Bass, Johnson
Gasol, Wilcox, Stiemsma

Sign another wing or backup PG with the last roster spot.  Even if they don't win a championship, that would be a FUN team to watch.

[jdz101]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind this trade? If we throw in a filler will the lakers give us a pick do you reckon?

[Eddie20]

OK, here is my new, completely fantasy scenario:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6m8vvqg

Lakers get: Rondo and JO
Clippers get: Ray
Suns get: Foye, Cook, Bledsoe, and cash (because they love cash)
C's get: Gasol, and Nash

C's lineup:
Nash, Dooling
Pietrus, Bradley, Moore
Pierce, Sasha, Daniels
KG, Bass, Johnson
Gasol, Wilcox, Stiemsma

Sign another wing or backup PG with the last roster spot.  Even if they don't win a championship, that would be a FUN team to watch.

That's pretty good! Offensively that team would be really hard to stop. The Nash/Gasol pick and roll with KG, Pierce, and Pietrus (in the corner) spotting up would be nuts.

[marseye]

no impossible .. Rondo ne bouge pas de là .. he stay here ..

[Chris]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind this trade? If we throw in a filler will the lakers give us a pick do you reckon?

No.  I think the Lakers are the ones who might need the pick.  A lot of people are undervaluing Gasol here.

[Smokeeye123]

OK, here is my new, completely fantasy scenario:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6m8vvqg

Lakers get: Rondo and JO
Clippers get: Ray
Suns get: Foye, Cook, Bledsoe, and cash (because they love cash)
C's get: Gasol, and Nash

C's lineup:
Nash, Dooling
Pietrus, Bradley, Moore
Pierce, Sasha, Daniels
KG, Bass, Johnson
Gasol, Wilcox, Stiemsma

Sign another wing or backup PG with the last roster spot.  Even if they don't win a championship, that would be a FUN team to watch.

Love the trade.