We can kill the Mashon Brooks talks now

[ozman]

I have alot of optimism with Johnson. I think his body build has been blown out of proportion too.


His listed as 221 lbs, when KG was drafted he was listed as 217 lbs. More weight and muscle will be added over time, but even at this weight i think he could contribute. Tyrus Thomas is listed as 225 lbs and he has been somewhat effective when healthy.

At the very least this year, he could match 08 leon powe production.

[LooseCannon]

His listed as 221 lbs, when KG was drafted he was listed as 217 lbs. More weight and muscle will be added over time, but even at this weight i think he could contribute. Tyrus Thomas is listed as 225 lbs and he has been somewhat effective when healthy.

The main problem with that comparison is that KG was drafted out of high school while Johnson was a college senior.  Johnson also reportedly put on 10-15 pounds for his senior year, so there may be a limit to what he can gain.

His future in the NBA probably relies more on becoming a stretch four than shifting to small forward, so he should work on extending his range.

[ozman]

His listed as 221 lbs, when KG was drafted he was listed as 217 lbs. More weight and muscle will be added over time, but even at this weight i think he could contribute. Tyrus Thomas is listed as 225 lbs and he has been somewhat effective when healthy.

The main problem with that comparison is that KG was drafted out of high school while Johnson was a college senior.  Johnson also reportedly put on 10-15 pounds for his senior year, so there may be a limit to what he can gain.

His future in the NBA probably relies more on becoming a stretch four than shifting to small forward, so he should work on extending his range.

Yeah true i didn't actually think about that. I don't by any means expect him to become KG, i was just making the point that even with his build he can contribute.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Jujuan will be a beast in 3 years. I love his game


steal of the draft

I hope he is, because MarShon as of now is looking like the steal of the draft.

[Celtics4ever]

Bigs take longer to develop most of them need 15-20 lbs before they have an NBA body.  Not to mention post D and post moves development.   I wish we had Clifford Ray to work with him.

[Eja117]

So if JJJ is better why is he buried behind Steamy on the bench? Etwaun isn't.

Call me crazy, but could it be because they all play different positions, and because they've got different players in front of them?

One guy has the perpetually injured Jermaine O'Neal in front of him.  The other has KG, Bass, and Wilcox.  The third has...  Avery Bradley right now.

With all due respect, that's not even a serious argument.

I agree. PF position (considering health) has got to be our most solid position at the moment

Oh I didn't realize a first round pick and recent Big Ten defensive and Big Ten player of the year with cat like quickness and a good outside shot couldn't be expected to beat out a slower untalented career d leaguer at the center position in both their rookie years in the league

This is why folks sometimes accuse you of hyperbole and/or baiting, eja.  You dang well know that power forward ≠ center, but you're pretending otherwise.  You're better / smarter than that.

You're fully capable of making a legit argument, but you're playing silly games here.  I mean, seriously?  E'Twaun Moore gets minutes, so that means that JuJuan Johnson sucks?  Why even waste everyone's time typing that?  You hold legitimate opinions, so back them up with logic, rather than nonsense.

I'm not going to get into who is smarter than what or who is condescending or gives who credit.
I would have thought that people would see the Etwaun point of how Doc has never had a problem playing rookies that can help be they lowly 2nd rounders, nbdl guys or whatever. Maybe sometimes when I think I'm being very clear I'm just not getting through.

Without even looking at his weight I'm guessing JJJ is very similarly sized to Marcus Camby or Duncan when he joined the league or Calvin Booth.  Steamsma doesn't dwarf him and I always thought of quickness and good shooting as skills that would help a center.

I can't believe I wrote that. Quickness and shooting are skills that would help a center. We see guys play out of position all the time in this league, especially in small line ups and one would logically think if Doc thinks JJJ is part of the future and Steams isn't then he would try to get JJJ PT.  The guy played the position in college. I don't see the big deal there.

[Eja117]

So if JJJ is better why is he buried behind Steamy on the bench? Etwaun isn't.

Call me crazy, but could it be because they all play different positions, and because they've got different players in front of them?

One guy has the perpetually injured Jermaine O'Neal in front of him.  The other has KG, Bass, and Wilcox.  The third has...  Avery Bradley right now.

With all due respect, that's not even a serious argument.

I agree. PF position (considering health) has got to be our most solid position at the moment

Oh I didn't realize a first round pick and recent Big Ten defensive and Big Ten player of the year with cat like quickness and a good outside shot couldn't be expected to beat out a slower untalented career d leaguer at the center position in both their rookie years in the league

This is why folks sometimes accuse you of hyperbole and/or baiting, eja.  You dang well know that power forward ≠ center, but you're pretending otherwise.  You're better / smarter than that.

Ok. I'm just trying to look to the implications here. Power forward = center.  So just hypothetically if during his rookie year an evil coach for no good reason had made KG play lots of minutes at center would that have stunted his growth or something? Would KG not have been able to contribute at that position? Especially if the alternative was a slow nbdl guy? I'm just not getting this statement at all. Maybe I'm not smarter than that.  I guess I come from the Bill Belichick school of sports where sometimes you look around at an Edelmen and say "get on the field and do your best at DB (or any other position I tell you. You were a QB in college or high school right?). It'll be good for you and good for us".

Maybe this is where people say something about apples and oranges because we're in a playoff hunt and Minnesotta wasn't. I don't know.  We need help at center where Jermaine O'Neal plays. JJJ supposedly has all this talent both offensive and defensive, and maybe with a good player next to him.....I don't see the problem.

I guess my mistake was thinking everyone comes from the Belichick school. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Roy H.]

So if JJJ is better why is he buried behind Steamy on the bench? Etwaun isn't.

Call me crazy, but could it be because they all play different positions, and because they've got different players in front of them?

One guy has the perpetually injured Jermaine O'Neal in front of him.  The other has KG, Bass, and Wilcox.  The third has...  Avery Bradley right now.

With all due respect, that's not even a serious argument.

I agree. PF position (considering health) has got to be our most solid position at the moment

Oh I didn't realize a first round pick and recent Big Ten defensive and Big Ten player of the year with cat like quickness and a good outside shot couldn't be expected to beat out a slower untalented career d leaguer at the center position in both their rookie years in the league

This is why folks sometimes accuse you of hyperbole and/or baiting, eja.  You dang well know that power forward ≠ center, but you're pretending otherwise.  You're better / smarter than that.

You're fully capable of making a legit argument, but you're playing silly games here.  I mean, seriously?  E'Twaun Moore gets minutes, so that means that JuJuan Johnson sucks?  Why even waste everyone's time typing that?  You hold legitimate opinions, so back them up with logic, rather than nonsense.

I'm not going to get into who is smarter than what or who is condescending or gives who credit.
I would have thought that people would see the Etwaun point of how Doc has never had a problem playing rookies that can help be they lowly 2nd rounders, nbdl guys or whatever. Maybe sometimes when I think I'm being very clear I'm just not getting through.

Without even looking at his weight I'm guessing JJJ is very similarly sized to Marcus Camby or Duncan or when he joined the league or Calvin Booth.  Steamsma doesn't dwarf him and I always thought of quickness and good shooting as skills that would help a center.

I can't believe I wrote that. Quickness and shooting are skills that would help a center. We see guys play out of position all the time in this league, especially in small line ups and one would logically think if Doc thinks JJJ is part of the future and Steams isn't then he would try to get JJJ PT.  The guy played the position in college. I don't see the big deal there.

Doc gave E'Twaun Moore minutes because Rondo and Dooling were both injured, though.  He was 4th string on the depth chart, and now he's second string due to injuries.  Basically, he's playing out of necessity.

JJ's situation is similar.  He's got multiple players in front of him.  If KG and Bass get hurt, I'm sure JJ will get more minutes, just like Moore.

In terms of Stiemsma vs. JJ, Stiemsma has played in a total of 8 more games, and about 4 more minutes per game; it's not like Stiemer is a huge contributor.  However, he was given a shot because he has legit size for an NBA center; he's listed at 260 pounds.  Johnson is listed at 221, which is extremely slight for a center.  Therefore, when the team needs size, it makes sense they'd put in the bigger player, essentially as a space filler.

Johnson has performed when given time, despite it being in very, very limited minutes.  He's shooting 63%, and is averaging 26.5 points per 36 minutes.  Again, that's an extremely small sample size, but at least it shows glimpses that the kid has some legit talent.

[Cman]

I'd trade JJJ for Marshon in a nano second

Maybe I'm a blind optimist, but I'm willing to gamble on JJ.

I'm willing to gamble on JJJ... and that future 2nd rounder from the Nets (depending on the protections on it).

[Roy H.]

So if JJJ is better why is he buried behind Steamy on the bench? Etwaun isn't.

Call me crazy, but could it be because they all play different positions, and because they've got different players in front of them?

One guy has the perpetually injured Jermaine O'Neal in front of him.  The other has KG, Bass, and Wilcox.  The third has...  Avery Bradley right now.

With all due respect, that's not even a serious argument.

I agree. PF position (considering health) has got to be our most solid position at the moment

Oh I didn't realize a first round pick and recent Big Ten defensive and Big Ten player of the year with cat like quickness and a good outside shot couldn't be expected to beat out a slower untalented career d leaguer at the center position in both their rookie years in the league

This is why folks sometimes accuse you of hyperbole and/or baiting, eja.  You dang well know that power forward ≠ center, but you're pretending otherwise.  You're better / smarter than that.

Ok. I'm just trying to look to the implications here. Power forward = center.  So just hypothetically if during his rookie year an evil coach for no good reason had made KG play lots of minutes at center would that have stunted his growth or something? Would KG not have been able to contribute at that position? Especially if the alternative was a slow nbdl guy? I'm just not getting this statement at all. Maybe I'm not smarter than that.  I guess I come from the Bill Belichick school of sports where sometimes you look around at an Edelmen and say "get on the field and do your best at DB (or any other position I tell you. You were a QB in college or high school right?). It'll be good for you and good for us".

Maybe this is where people say something about apples and oranges because we're in a playoff hunt and Minnesotta wasn't. I don't know.  We need help at center where Jermaine O'Neal plays. JJJ supposedly has all this talent both offensive and defensive, and maybe with a good player next to him.....I don't see the problem.

I guess my mistake was thinking everyone comes from the Belichick school. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, apples and oranges, both between rebuilding Minnesota and quasi-contending Boston, and between football and basketball.

Doc wants to put his rookies in a position to succeed.  Having a 220 pound, skinny rookie play center when there are more physically ready options on the roster is a bad idea.

[Eja117]

So if JJJ is better why is he buried behind Steamy on the bench? Etwaun isn't.

Call me crazy, but could it be because they all play different positions, and because they've got different players in front of them?

One guy has the perpetually injured Jermaine O'Neal in front of him.  The other has KG, Bass, and Wilcox.  The third has...  Avery Bradley right now.

With all due respect, that's not even a serious argument.

I agree. PF position (considering health) has got to be our most solid position at the moment

Oh I didn't realize a first round pick and recent Big Ten defensive and Big Ten player of the year with cat like quickness and a good outside shot couldn't be expected to beat out a slower untalented career d leaguer at the center position in both their rookie years in the league

This is why folks sometimes accuse you of hyperbole and/or baiting, eja.  You dang well know that power forward ≠ center, but you're pretending otherwise.  You're better / smarter than that.

Ok. I'm just trying to look to the implications here. Power forward = center.  So just hypothetically if during his rookie year an evil coach for no good reason had made KG play lots of minutes at center would that have stunted his growth or something? Would KG not have been able to contribute at that position? Especially if the alternative was a slow nbdl guy? I'm just not getting this statement at all. Maybe I'm not smarter than that.  I guess I come from the Bill Belichick school of sports where sometimes you look around at an Edelmen and say "get on the field and do your best at DB (or any other position I tell you. You were a QB in college or high school right?). It'll be good for you and good for us".

Maybe this is where people say something about apples and oranges because we're in a playoff hunt and Minnesotta wasn't. I don't know.  We need help at center where Jermaine O'Neal plays. JJJ supposedly has all this talent both offensive and defensive, and maybe with a good player next to him.....I don't see the problem.

I guess my mistake was thinking everyone comes from the Belichick school. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, apples and oranges, both between rebuilding Minnesota and quasi-contending Boston, and between football and basketball.

Doc wants to put his rookies in a position to succeed.  Having a 220 pound, skinny rookie play center when there are more physically ready options on the roster is a bad idea.

So not to put words in anyone's mouth, but you're saying Steams is more physically ready?  JON is better physically?  I'm not really totally disagreeing, but not agreeing either.

And the bench is a better position to succeed? So Etwaun is playing because we have less options there and he's in a better position to succeed?

So what would "failure" for JJJ be in this year, and what would be the consequences? I mean say the idea is that JJJ has a significant future here completely different from Jerome Moiso and instead of giving Steams 7 minutes a night they gave those to JJJ or gave him 5 of them. What is the thing that would happen that makes those minutes critical?

Plus you didn't really answer my hypothetical KG question. Maybe I just asked it again in a different way.

Please don't make me resort to an apples to pineapples comparison of bringing in the 3rd baseman to pitch or pulling a goalie, cause I don't want to be that obtusely petty this early in the morning. That's a prime time argument. I haven't even had coffee yet

[SHAQATTACK]

Basically the last few games have KG and PP returning to playing form ....but I hope Doc notices  how Rondo dribbles the ball way too much , often kills the flow of the game and how being a poor shooter shrinks the floor and how we need the the energy of Moore , JJ, and AB on the court to keep the team energy and ball movement up.

[TBreezy]

Bigs take longer to develop most of them need 15-20 lbs before they have an NBA body.  Not to mention post D and post moves development.   I wish we had Clifford Ray to work with him.

I think the better way to phrase this is swing men, often don't need long to develop / adjust.  Points and Bigs always have a ton to develop and learn (very few DRoses - and even he improved exponentially between y1 and y2)

[Roy H.]

So not to put words in anyone's mouth, but you're saying Steams is more physically ready?  JON is better physically?  I'm not really totally disagreeing, but not agreeing either.

Yes, the 260 pound muscular guy is more physically ready to bang in the post than the 220 pounds soaking wet power forward.

And the bench is a better position to succeed? So Etwaun is playing because we have less options there and he's in a better position to succeed?

What's the confusion you're having?  Doc will play rookies when they've got no competition in front of them.  However, he's not going to play them out of position, especially when there are other options there.

So what would "failure" for JJJ be in this year, and what would be the consequences? I mean say the idea is that JJJ has a significant future here completely different from Jerome Moiso and instead of giving Steams 7 minutes a night they gave those to JJJ or gave him 5 of them. What is the thing that would happen that makes those minutes critical?

There are two concerns in terms of force-feeding JJ minutes.  First, if you're asking him to defend the post as our defense relies upon, it's going to hurt the team.  Hurting the team when we want to win now doesn't make a lot of sense.  Second, if you put Johnson in and ask him to play out of position, you damage his confidence and potentially stunt his growth.  You've seen with Avery Bradley how much confidence can help a kid's game, and I'm sure Doc is trying to preserve that.

Plus you didn't really answer my hypothetical KG question. Maybe I just asked it again in a different way.

Please don't make me resort to an apples to pineapples comparison of bringing in the 3rd baseman to pitch or pulling a goalie, cause I don't want to be that obtusely petty this early in the morning. That's a prime time argument. I haven't even had coffee yet

I'm not really into hypotheticals.  I will say, though, that I'm not one of the members on here that thinks comparisons between KG and JJ are remotely fair.  I like JJ's potential, but using him in the same sentence as a top-50 player of all-time does both players a disservice.

[Eja117]

I don't usually say stuff like this but I think you might be thinking about this too deep.  I don't think JJJ is gaining confidence sitting on the bench watching Steams play.