Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[StartOrien]

You leave Chris Bosh outta this. He's gone through enough without me embarrassing him in a basketball debate.

At this point you know I'm just looking for an excuse to use that picture, right?

[BballTim]

BTW last year, Paul's opponents had a PER of 16.3, Rondo's was 17.5.  Turnovers were the same, shooting percentage about the same.  Paul's guy had more assists and slightly less rebounds and committed more fouls.  Paul's guy shot less (hence more passes and turnovers) and likewise scored less.

I'd says statistically they were pretty darn similar on the defensive end of the floor, at least according to 82games.com.

  According to opponent counterpart production on 82games, Rondo's opponents had an efg% of .450, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 4.4 turnovers and a PER of 13.3, Paul's opponents had an efg% of .501, 4.4 rebounds, 9 assists, 4.1 turnovers and a PER of 16.3. In 08/09, when CP3 was 1st team all-defense, his opponents had an efg% of .471, 5 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 2.9 turnovers and a PER of 17.2. If you check opponent's efficiency (points/shots+to+.44*fta), Rondo allowed .80 ppp, CP3 allowed .88 ppp, 08/09 CP3 allowed .88 ppp. So,about 10% less efficient from Rondo's opponents.

[Celtics4ever]

I don't know if you could ever call Vince Carter a threat when it matters...

[BballTim]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

"The NBA Skills Competition: Not Giving A Crap Since 2001"

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

Well, that's not the case. What precludes Rondo from being the 'arbitrarily anointed best defensive PG' in my mind is that he is in fact not the best defensive PG. Neither is Chris Paul. Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in basketball right now. But, Paul and Rondo are right there.

But point guard is a hard position to gauge defensively anyways. Its a lot easier to see who the bad ones are than the good ones.   

  I didn't see a ton of Lowry but when I did see him I don't remember being that excited about his defense.

[indeedproceed]

BTW last year, Paul's opponents had a PER of 16.3, Rondo's was 17.5.  Turnovers were the same, shooting percentage about the same.  Paul's guy had more assists and slightly less rebounds and committed more fouls.  Paul's guy shot less (hence more passes and turnovers) and likewise scored less.

I'd says statistically they were pretty darn similar on the defensive end of the floor, at least according to 82games.com.

  According to opponent counterpart production on 82games, Rondo's opponents had an efg% of .450, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 4.4 turnovers and a PER of 13.3, Paul's opponents had an efg% of .501, 4.4 rebounds, 9 assists, 4.1 turnovers and a PER of 16.3. In 08/09, when CP3 was 1st team all-defense, his opponents had an efg% of .471, 5 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 2.9 turnovers and a PER of 17.2. If you check opponent's efficiency (points/shots+to+.44*fta), Rondo allowed .80 ppp, CP3 allowed .88 ppp, 08/09 CP3 allowed .88 ppp. So,about 10% less efficient from Rondo's opponents.

That 13.3 opponent PER number stuck out to me too.

I haven't finished doing it yet, but ON/Off the court stats might help too.

Lowry is -4.3, Rondo is +2.1, CP3 is -2.2

That's pretty striking. Boston's defense actually allows LESS points when Rondo is sitting, while both Lowry and CP3 had pretty big impacts on that number.

  I didn't see a ton of Lowry but when I did see him I don't remember being that excited about his defense.

Then you did not watch enough Houston basketball. Lowry down the stretch last year was a top 5 point guard. And, he's been bringing that defense the last 2 years.

[Roy H.]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

"The NBA Skills Competition: Not Giving A Crap Since 2001"

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

Well, that's not the case. What precludes Rondo from being the 'arbitrarily anointed best defensive PG' in my mind is that he is in fact not the best defensive PG. Neither is Chris Paul. Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in basketball right now. But, Paul and Rondo are right there.

But point guard is a hard position to gauge defensively anyways. Its a lot easier to see who the bad ones are than the good ones.  

Yeah, according to synergy sports, Rondo was the better defender between Rondo and Lowry (with CP3 ranking a bit behind Lowry, but neither Rondo nor Lowry being all that impressive).  

Rondo's ranks:

42nd in the NBA in overall  points allowed per possession (0.79; allowed the opponent to score on 35.5% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

43rd in the NBA in isolation points allowed per possession (0.67; allowed the opponent to score on 32.3% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

27th in the NBA in post-up points allowed per possession (0.69; allowed the opponent to score on 31.3% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

Lowry's ranks:

188th in the NBA in overall points allowed per possession (0.88; allowed the opponent to score on 40.8% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

84th in the NBA in isolation points allowed per possession (0.75; allowed the opponent to score on 38.9% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

11th in the NBA in post-up points allowed per possession (0.64; allowed the opponent to score on 32.8% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

Now, a note on these stats:  

Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.

We do not attach an individual defender on offensive rebounds, cuts or transition plays as these are team defense concepts and fault/credit usually cannot be attributed to one person.

The above means that there can be some skewing; since a PG gets the credit or blame for whatever happens after he lets a guy blow by him, presumably a player with a better interior defense (one that blocks shots, for instance, rather than fouling or giving up baskets) will fair better for the exact same defensive effort as a player who has weaker teammates.  The stats also don't measure defensive plays like ball denial and positioning, etc.; the only things that count are shots, turnovers, and trips to the line.  Still, it's an interesting look.

[indeedproceed]

That is interesting. So, one would imagine that overall PPP skews heavily towards the guy with KG and a legitimate center over the guy with some combination of Scola, Patterson, and Hayes.

[BballTim]

BTW last year, Paul's opponents had a PER of 16.3, Rondo's was 17.5.  Turnovers were the same, shooting percentage about the same.  Paul's guy had more assists and slightly less rebounds and committed more fouls.  Paul's guy shot less (hence more passes and turnovers) and likewise scored less.

I'd says statistically they were pretty darn similar on the defensive end of the floor, at least according to 82games.com.

  According to opponent counterpart production on 82games, Rondo's opponents had an efg% of .450, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 4.4 turnovers and a PER of 13.3, Paul's opponents had an efg% of .501, 4.4 rebounds, 9 assists, 4.1 turnovers and a PER of 16.3. In 08/09, when CP3 was 1st team all-defense, his opponents had an efg% of .471, 5 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 2.9 turnovers and a PER of 17.2. If you check opponent's efficiency (points/shots+to+.44*fta), Rondo allowed .80 ppp, CP3 allowed .88 ppp, 08/09 CP3 allowed .88 ppp. So,about 10% less efficient from Rondo's opponents.

That 13.3 opponent PER number stuck out to me too.

I haven't finished doing it yet, but ON/Off the court stats might help too.

Lowry is -4.3, Rondo is +2.1, CP3 is -2.2

That's pretty striking. Boston's defense actually allows LESS points when Rondo is sitting, while both Lowry and CP3 had pretty big impacts on that number.

  I didn't see a ton of Lowry but when I did see him I don't remember being that excited about his defense.

Then you did not watch enough Houston basketball. Lowry down the stretch last year was a top 5 point guard. And, he's been bringing that defense the last 2 years.

  A lot of the on/off numbers have to do with how good your backup is and who's in and out of the game at different times. Lowry allowed a PER of 16 last year, Dragic allowed a PER of 10 on the same team. Also Lowry doesn't play as many minutes or as big a role on offense as Rondo or CP3, but I'm still not convinced.

[indeedproceed]

BTW last year, Paul's opponents had a PER of 16.3, Rondo's was 17.5.  Turnovers were the same, shooting percentage about the same.  Paul's guy had more assists and slightly less rebounds and committed more fouls.  Paul's guy shot less (hence more passes and turnovers) and likewise scored less.

I'd says statistically they were pretty darn similar on the defensive end of the floor, at least according to 82games.com.

  According to opponent counterpart production on 82games, Rondo's opponents had an efg% of .450, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 4.4 turnovers and a PER of 13.3, Paul's opponents had an efg% of .501, 4.4 rebounds, 9 assists, 4.1 turnovers and a PER of 16.3. In 08/09, when CP3 was 1st team all-defense, his opponents had an efg% of .471, 5 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 2.9 turnovers and a PER of 17.2. If you check opponent's efficiency (points/shots+to+.44*fta), Rondo allowed .80 ppp, CP3 allowed .88 ppp, 08/09 CP3 allowed .88 ppp. So,about 10% less efficient from Rondo's opponents.

That 13.3 opponent PER number stuck out to me too.

I haven't finished doing it yet, but ON/Off the court stats might help too.

Lowry is -4.3, Rondo is +2.1, CP3 is -2.2

That's pretty striking. Boston's defense actually allows LESS points when Rondo is sitting, while both Lowry and CP3 had pretty big impacts on that number.

  I didn't see a ton of Lowry but when I did see him I don't remember being that excited about his defense.

Then you did not watch enough Houston basketball. Lowry down the stretch last year was a top 5 point guard. And, he's been bringing that defense the last 2 years.

  A lot of the on/off numbers have to do with how good your backup is and who's in and out of the game at different times. Lowry allowed a PER of 16 last year, Dragic allowed a PER of 10 on the same team. Also Lowry doesn't play as many minutes or as big a role on offense as Rondo or CP3, but I'm still not convinced.

Can't save them all.

[Roy H.]

That is interesting. So, one would imagine that overall PPP skews heavily towards the guy with KG and a legitimate center over the guy with some combination of Scola, Patterson, and Hayes.

Well, I'm not sure that teammates' defense "skew heavily" one way or the other; the system seems to at least take some of the easy criticism away.  Also, keep in mind that the system penalizes a PG when he lets his man get by him and another player fouls him.  Shaq fouled a lot more than Houston's interior defenders, probably based on his lack of mobility; Shaq's PF/36 was 5.7, while none of Houston's primary big men was over 3.5 PF/36.  Therefore, Rondo was punished as much by his big men defenders as he was helped by them, in terms of how the stats are calculated.

Lastly, don't go knocking Chuck Hayes' defense; he's an excellent defender.

[BballTim]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

"The NBA Skills Competition: Not Giving A Crap Since 2001"

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

Well, that's not the case. What precludes Rondo from being the 'arbitrarily anointed best defensive PG' in my mind is that he is in fact not the best defensive PG. Neither is Chris Paul. Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in basketball right now. But, Paul and Rondo are right there.

But point guard is a hard position to gauge defensively anyways. Its a lot easier to see who the bad ones are than the good ones.  

Yeah, according to synergy sports, Rondo was the better defender between Rondo and Lowry (with CP3 ranking a bit behind Lowry, but neither Rondo nor Lowry being all that impressive).  

Rondo's ranks:

42nd in the NBA in overall  points allowed per possession (0.79; allowed the opponent to score on 35.5% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

43rd in the NBA in isolation points allowed per possession (0.67; allowed the opponent to score on 32.3% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

27th in the NBA in post-up points allowed per possession (0.69; allowed the opponent to score on 31.3% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

Lowry's ranks:

188th in the NBA in overall points allowed per possession (0.88; allowed the opponent to score on 40.8% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

84th in the NBA in isolation points allowed per possession (0.75; allowed the opponent to score on 38.9% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

11th in the NBA in post-up points allowed per possession (0.64; allowed the opponent to score on 32.8% of possessions that resulted in a shot, trip to the line, or turnover)

Now, a note on these stats:  

Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.

We do not attach an individual defender on offensive rebounds, cuts or transition plays as these are team defense concepts and fault/credit usually cannot be attributed to one person.

The above means that there can be some skewing; since a PG gets the credit or blame for whatever happens after he lets a guy blow by him, presumably a player with a better interior defense (one that blocks shots, for instance, rather than fouling or giving up baskets) will fair better for the exact same defensive effort as a player who has weaker teammates.  The stats also don't measure defensive plays like ball denial and positioning, etc.; the only things that count are shots, turnovers, and trips to the line.  Still, it's an interesting look.

  Just curious, but how did you get those numbers? Also, do you have the lists of players above them? Not that I want to see the full lists posted, just curious about whether the players ahead of Rondo were generally players that spent a lot of time on the floor.

  Those numbers are interesting but are just how you defend opponents during scoring opportunities. Another interesting thing would be how many opportunities they allowed. Also, some areas of defense that Rondo excels at (ball denial, harassing opponents so they get into their offense later, knocking the ball loose from a player that someone else is guarding) aren't accounted for.

[StartOrien]

Chuck Hayes couldn't take a team with Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol on it to the conference finals.

[Roy H.]

Just curious, but how did you get those numbers? Also, do you have the lists of players above them? Not that I want to see the full lists posted, just curious about whether the players ahead of Rondo were generally players that spent a lot of time on the floor.

  Those numbers are interesting but are just how you defend opponents during scoring opportunities. Another interesting thing would be how many opportunities they allowed. Also, some areas of defense that Rondo excels at (ball denial, harassing opponents so they get into their offense later, knocking the ball loose from a player that someone else is guarding) aren't accounted for.

http://mysynergysports.com/

Type in the player name, and there will be three tabs, one of which is for defense.

I haven't seen an overall defensive list -- perhaps those who subscribe to Synergy can see one -- but from experience anything below 50th or so is very good.

[BballTim]

That is interesting. So, one would imagine that overall PPP skews heavily towards the guy with KG and a legitimate center over the guy with some combination of Scola, Patterson, and Hayes.

  Lowry's opposing ppp (from 82games) was about .90. Rondo's opposing ppp from his rookie year (when his bigs were Perk battling plantar fascitis, Jefferson, Gomes and Scal) was .86.

[BballTim]

Just curious, but how did you get those numbers? Also, do you have the lists of players above them? Not that I want to see the full lists posted, just curious about whether the players ahead of Rondo were generally players that spent a lot of time on the floor.

  Those numbers are interesting but are just how you defend opponents during scoring opportunities. Another interesting thing would be how many opportunities they allowed. Also, some areas of defense that Rondo excels at (ball denial, harassing opponents so they get into their offense later, knocking the ball loose from a player that someone else is guarding) aren't accounted for.

http://mysynergysports.com/

Type in the player name, and there will be three tabs, one of which is for defense.

I haven't seen an overall defensive list -- perhaps those who subscribe to Synergy can see one -- but from experience anything below 50th or so is very good.

  That's great. Thanks, I thought you needed a subscription to see anything.

  Sometime last spring I compared Rondo's opposing ppp (from 82games numbers) to the members of the previous all-defense teams as well as some other point guards and he was the best. It's not surprising that he did better than the bigs and wings from the all-defense teams as he guards point guards, who turn the ball over a lot. That's why I was curious about those rankings, as I would suspect that many of the players ahead of him are subs.

  BTW, not only is he at or near the best ppp (for players with big minutes, and from 82games) but he also allows the fewest assists per48 of the point guards (or at least did as of March or so). I agree that his teammates help with the defense, but he's impressive in his own right.