2011 CB draft: How does my team look?/division rankings

[Roy H.]

Anyone wanna waste their time in a divisional breakdown?

It's not a "breakdown", but here's a very quick sketch of how I see the divisions breaking down.  This is done on incomplete information, though -- if team rosters weren't updated in the official thread, I went by memory.  In other words, if I massively underrated your team, it's your own fault.

Atlantic:

1. Boston*
2. Philly*
------------------ (gap)
3. Knicks*
4. Nets*

Central:

1. Pawnee*   
2. El Salvador*
----------------------- (gap)
3. Detroit
4. Chicago

Southeast:

1. Washington*
--------------------- (gap)
2. Orlando*
3. Miami
--------------------- (gap)
4. Atlanta

=================================================

Southwest:

1. Memphis*
2. Cleveland*
--------------- (gap)
3. San Antonio
4. Dallas

Northwest:

1. Denver*
2. Portland*
------------------ (gap)
3. OKC*
4. Utah

Pacific:

1. Sacramento*
2. Golden State*
----------------------- (gap)
3. Phoenix*
-----------------------
4. Los Angeles


I had a hard time finding eight playoff teams in the East, and I had trouble limiting myself to eight teams in the West.  I think the West is both deeper and has more contenders than the East.

Wow, a team with solid defense, a great passer, good rebounding (on both sides) rebounding, athletic and can score in the last place?

Atlanta has probably on of the best passers and penetration-guy in the game in Rondo.

Yes Caron will play outside to stretch the floor. He's a 37% 3 point shooter but he will play to shoot behind the rainbow. And this team have Jamal Crawford who, even at 36% percent is still a respected outside shooter to bring in if Caron is not hitting shots.

A PF who even though has maturity and laziness on defense issues is still a close double-double machine, with still enough potential to improve more, as he is improving every year.

A team who, it's starting 5 alone is averaging a career 8 offensive rebounds a game will create a lot of second chance opportunities.

A team with great defense (PF being the only liability but can be covered up by a tenacious SF and C), shot blockers/alterers and can create turnovers.

I understand not making the playoffs but last place? C'mon.

Your starting big men are Jermaine "I Played 24 Hobbled Games Last Season" O'Neal and Andray "I Care More About Stats Than Winning" Blatche.  Your starting SG is playing out of position, and only played 29 games last year.  I like Rondo and Wallace, and don't mind Crawford, but your team has some pretty serious flaws, in my opinion.  It's why the three people who have ranked your team have it in 4th, 4th, and 3rd.

[nickagneta]

To be fair Yoki, The Pawnee and El Salvador have clearly superior teams to yours which just leaves the question as to who is better in that division, Atlanta or Detroit?

I think the answer is Detroit for a few reasons.

1. They have a clear strategy of what they are going to do on the floor, judging from their player selections. They are going young, they are going athletic and they are running. They are all good players if nothing more than a collection of #3 and #4 options on contending teams.

2. You do not have a clear strategy even though with Rondo, you have the best player on either team. You team appears to be an odd collection of players that have little in common regarding the style they would play best in. Also, Crawford and Blatche tend to be selfish, self absorbed players that like to throw up stats but care little about winning.

3. You have two guys coming off injury riddled seasons. That is never going to be a good thing for a team, especially two guys you are relying on so prominently for production.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Anyone wanna waste their time in a divisional breakdown?

It's not a "breakdown", but here's a very quick sketch of how I see the divisions breaking down.  This is done on incomplete information, though -- if team rosters weren't updated in the official thread, I went by memory.  In other words, if I massively underrated your team, it's your own fault.

Atlantic:

1. Boston*
2. Philly*
------------------ (gap)
3. Knicks*
4. Nets*

Central:

1. Pawnee*   
2. El Salvador*
----------------------- (gap)
3. Detroit
4. Chicago

Southeast:

1. Washington*
--------------------- (gap)
2. Orlando*
3. Miami
--------------------- (gap)
4. Atlanta

=================================================

Southwest:

1. Memphis*
2. Cleveland*
--------------- (gap)
3. San Antonio
4. Dallas

Northwest:

1. Denver*
2. Portland*
------------------ (gap)
3. OKC*
4. Utah

Pacific:

1. Sacramento*
2. Golden State*
----------------------- (gap)
3. Phoenix*
-----------------------
4. Los Angeles


I had a hard time finding eight playoff teams in the East, and I had trouble limiting myself to eight teams in the West.  I think the West is both deeper and has more contenders than the East.

Wow, a team with solid defense, a great passer, good rebounding (on both sides) rebounding, athletic and can score in the last place?

Atlanta has probably on of the best passers and penetration-guy in the game in Rondo.

Yes Caron will play outside to stretch the floor. He's a 37% 3 point shooter but he will play to shoot behind the rainbow. And this team have Jamal Crawford who, even at 36% percent is still a respected outside shooter to bring in if Caron is not hitting shots.

A PF who even though has maturity and laziness on defense issues is still a close double-double machine, with still enough potential to improve more, as he is improving every year.

A team who, it's starting 5 alone is averaging a career 8 offensive rebounds a game will create a lot of second chance opportunities.

A team with great defense (PF being the only liability but can be covered up by a tenacious SF and C), shot blockers/alterers and can create turnovers.

I understand not making the playoffs but last place? C'mon.

Your starting big men are Jermaine "I Played 24 Hobbled Games Last Season" O'Neal and Andray "I Care More About Stats Than Winning" Blatche.  Your starting SG is playing out of position, and only played 29 games last year.  I like Rondo and Wallace, and don't mind Crawford, but your team has some pretty serious flaws, in my opinion.  It's why the three people who have ranked your team have it in 4th, 4th, and 3rd.

Blatche is still a 16-8 guy and I don't mind if he only cares about stats, he gives solid contributions. Especially with Rondo being a better passer than John Wall, he'll inflate that stats and contribute more. Jeramaine is still solid no matter fragile he is. I can still draft a back up C but we could all agree that JO can give any team a solid 20-25 minutes of shot altering, tough defense. And will let him post up more. Caron is capable of playing 2. He's fast enough. But I agree that it's still his natural position, so I will start Crawford to "fix the problem".

[Roy H.]

Blatche is still a 16-8 guy and I don't mind if he only cares about stats, he gives solid contributions.

I guess that's the biggest source of disagreement.  I think a guy like Andray Blatche kills a team, because he won't play defense, he won't pass, he won't sacrifice, etc.  I just haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he's on the cusp of growing up, unlike, say, Zach Randolph last year.

With JO, if he's healthy, he'll help your team.  How many games do you think he'll play in, though, especially when he's shrugging off surgery this off-season?  My guess is he'll miss 30+ games next year.

[KCattheStripe]

The moral of the story is Taj Gibson is awesome.

[action781]

Wow, a team with solid defense, a great passer, good rebounding (on both sides) rebounding, athletic and can score in the last place?

Atlanta has probably on of the best passers and penetration-guy in the game in Rondo.

Yes Caron will play outside to stretch the floor. He's a 37% 3 point shooter but he will play to shoot behind the rainbow. And this team have Jamal Crawford who, even at 36% percent is still a respected outside shooter to bring in if Caron is not hitting shots.

A PF who even though has maturity and laziness on defense issues is still a close double-double machine, with still enough potential to improve more, as he is improving every year.

A team who, it's starting 5 alone is averaging a career 8 offensive rebounds a game will create a lot of second chance opportunities.

A team with great defense (PF being the only liability but can be covered up by a tenacious SF and C), shot blockers/alterers and can create turnovers.

I understand not making the playoffs but last place? C'mon.

Your team "can score" in the sense that, yeah, they'll put up over 80 points per game.  Your team would be in the bottom 5 in the league in terms of scoring ability, though.  I mean most teams have a 20ppg scorer on their team.  You have one offensive liability on your team (meaning his defender can leave him to help on other players) in Rondo and JO is only considered a decent offensive option because it's relative to his position where there are very good few offensive players.  Then you have 3 other players who none of which are even a top 10 scorer at their position.  Jamal Crawford I like, but he can create offense himself and doesn't need Rondo.

Bottom line:  If this team was healthy and clicking on all cylinders, I think this team would very likely sneak into the bottom seeds of the playoffs.  But I have little faith that Jermaine Oneal can be counted on for 50 games in a regular season.  So you still need to draft two serviceable centers to play in all those games that he misses and that pool is thinning out.

[Roy H.]

The moral of the story is Taj Gibson is awesome.

Since he's a former CrotoNat, I'll concur.

[KCattheStripe]

The moral of the story is Taj Gibson is awesome.

Since he's a former CrotoNat, I'll concur.

Healthiest. Crotornat. Ofalltime.

[Roy H.]

The moral of the story is Taj Gibson is awesome.

Since he's a former CrotoNat, I'll concur.

Healthiest. Crotornat. Ofalltime.

Haha.  Taj and Jrue Holiday seem to have survived the injury kiss of death.

_____ + ____ + Manu + JO + ____ + ______ + _______, not so much.  Even _______ missed a lot of games this year.

EDIT...  sorry, no names.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Blatche is still a 16-8 guy and I don't mind if he only cares about stats, he gives solid contributions.

I guess that's the biggest source of disagreement.  I think a guy like Andray Blatche kills a team, because he won't play defense, he won't pass, he won't sacrifice, etc.  I just haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he's on the cusp of growing up, unlike, say, Zach Randolph last year.

With JO, if he's healthy, he'll help your team.  How many games do you think he'll play in, though, especially when he's shrugging off surgery this off-season?  My guess is he'll miss 30+ games next year.

I don't think he'll kill a team. Especially with a good passer like Rondo, he'll be open if not most of the time so he does not have to create shots for himself like he's doing in Washington. He has improved every year (even maturity wise although just a tiny bit) and that's good evidence that he can still grow. And with Rondo's ability and leadership, as much as he lacks defense, that offensive potential will be put to use.

I won't disagree with you on JO though. But like I said he's still solid and it will help this team (and Blatche) on the interior defense. Limiting his minutes will probably help him keep fresh. There's still a bunch of big men I can snatch to help him with that.

[action781]

Blatche is still a 16-8 guy and I don't mind if he only cares about stats, he gives solid contributions. Especially with Rondo being a better passer than John Wall, he'll inflate that stats and contribute more. Jeramaine is still solid no matter fragile he is. I can still draft a back up C but we could all agree that JO can give any team a solid 20-25 minutes of shot altering, tough defense. And will let him post up more. Caron is capable of playing 2. He's fast enough. But I agree that it's still his natural position, so I will start Crawford to "fix the problem".

If you think Blatche is a 16-8 guy, then your team will win 20 games in my opinion.

JO can definitely give a team a solid 20-25 min of shot altering tough defense, but not for 82 games.  And like I said, I'm not even he can for 50 games.  Didn't he elect to NOT have surgery to fix the knee problem that he's been having?  So there will be no structural improvement to his knee which means he will miss many games again.

My advice:  You want to be a running team with Rondo?  That's cool.  Then start Wallace at the 4.  Start Butler at the 2 or 3, it doesn't matter; he's a "wing" and can guard either position.  Keep Crawford coming off the bench; he accels in that role as scorer off the bench and can create his own offense.  Draft a best available athletic 2/3 as your other starter.  Move Blatche to the bench or trade him to a team that is in absolute dire need of offense.  And you still need two more centers.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Blatche is still a 16-8 guy and I don't mind if he only cares about stats, he gives solid contributions. Especially with Rondo being a better passer than John Wall, he'll inflate that stats and contribute more. Jeramaine is still solid no matter fragile he is. I can still draft a back up C but we could all agree that JO can give any team a solid 20-25 minutes of shot altering, tough defense. And will let him post up more. Caron is capable of playing 2. He's fast enough. But I agree that it's still his natural position, so I will start Crawford to "fix the problem".

If you think Blatche is a 16-8 guy, then your team will win 20 games in my opinion.

JO can definitely give a team a solid 20-25 min of shot altering tough defense, but not for 82 games.  And like I said, I'm not even he can for 50 games.  Didn't he elect to NOT have surgery to fix the knee problem that he's been having?  So there will be no structural improvement to his knee which means he will miss many games again.

My advice:  You want to be a running team with Rondo?  That's cool.  Then start Wallace at the 4.  Start Butler at the 2 or 3, it doesn't matter; he's a "wing" and can guard either position.  Keep Crawford coming off the bench; he accels in that role as scorer off the bench and can create his own offense.  Draft a best available athletic 2/3 as your other starter.  Move Blatche to the bench or trade him to a team that is in absolute dire need of offense.  And you still need two more centers.

In my opinion I think your selling Blatche short. I get that he is selfish and a cancer but he's a solid offensive player and will thrive more with a great passer like Rondo. Plus he's not the first option, Jamal is now. But then again, every body plays around Rondo. Rondo will create, and if he can't, ball will be given it to Jamal to create.

But going back to Blatch, he's big, a great finisher, athletic and solid rebounder offensively (while calling himself soft, he averages close to 3 OR's last season) and a decent mid range game. Rondo can and will find him open, and it'll help him be more efficient and score. He doesn't have to create for himself on this team but even if he does from time to time, he's agile and tall and can give mismatches against shorter or slower 4's. He'll be open and knock shots inside and out.

[Kane3387]

Wow... Everyone has Utah last? Seriously? Gasol and pierce get no love.

[action781]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48

I get that he is selfish and a cancer

Then you get why many of us aren't high on him.  Even if he was to get his 16-8 like you say, I'll take that, but it will take him 15 fga to get that.  So that makes me think Gerald Wallace and Caron Butler are only combining for 30ppg.

[indeedproceed]

In my opinion, Kyle Lowry is a better PG than Billups in every possible sense.

Experience?  Leadership?  Shooting?  Efficiency?  Getting to the line?  Playing off the ball?

Can't debate it: Experience, getting to the line, playing off the ball

Will debate it/not a clear winner: Shooting, efficiency, leadership

Leadership I almost put in the first catagoery, but I'm telling you Lowry made me a believer after the (diva volume scoring PG who wore an awesome draft suit) fiasco/trade. He almost single handedly hauled that Rockets team kicking and screaming into the playoffs.

EDIT: Actually nevermind. Billups is a better leader if only by virtue of his past accomplishments. I just don't think its a 'weakness' in Lowry. He's just not on Billups level there.

Shooting?  How can you argue shooting?  Lowry is a career 32% 3pt shooter.  Billups has averaged 2 a game for like the past 10 years while shooting 39% is probably second only to Nash as far as PGs go.

Billups is among the best shooters in the league both off the dribble and spotting up, from any distance.

Billups shot 42% last year and 40% from deep. Lowry shot 42% last year and 38% from deep.

But, that's not really the point. Lowry was a different player towards the end of the season than he was when he started it, and those #'s go up to 45% from the field, and 41% from deep.

Billups on the other hand, he only shot 40% from the floor while in New York, and 33% from deep.

He's getting older. Lowry is getting better.

So what you gentlemen have basically shown is that in intangibles Lowry is a more efficient player and a better shooter. IP has already admitted that Chauncey already is a better leader, gets to the whole better and plays better off the ball.

I admitted Chauncey is a better player off the ball, better leader, and has more experience. I'd never say Chauncey gets to the hole better, because that's a complete fallacy.

And you're expecting Chauncey to get better assist numbers on the reasoning that his #'s dipped because MELO was too ball-dominant?

Because Melo was too ball dominant? And LeBron is going to be less ball-dominant?

Is this the new 'meta humor' I keep hearing the kids talk about?