Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[18isGREATERthan72]

wait, this is absolutely not true. he's below average, and that's still the consistent knock on him. he COULD be the best due to his size/athleticism combo, but pretty much everyone recognizes he's not there yet.

Someone hasn't watched games this year.

More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Rose is particularly effective in defending isolation sequences, where he allows just 0.61 points per possession. Rose’s lateral quickness becomes a huge asset when opponents go one-on-one. In this sequence, watch how Rose goes over the pick with the Sixers’ Jrue Holiday, and yet still stays with him step for step as he drives into the lane:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


I can pull up other numbers if you'd like. His dRTG is 103, among the best for point guards.

Would you say Rose is one of the best, if not the best scoring point guards in the league?  I'd say so.  This will sound idiotic, but his points per possession could be due to the fact that he was the only PG in the league that didn't have to defend Derrick Rose.

His dRTG could be chalked up to the fact that the Bulls were the best defensive team in the league.

[indeedproceed]

Would you say Rose is one of the best, if not the best scoring point guards in the league?  I'd say so.  This will sound idiotic, but his points per possession could be due to the fact that he was the only PG in the league that didn't have to defend Derrick Rose.

It doesn't sound idiotic, but its wrong (but trust me, I've had the same thought before regarding LeBron James vs other small forwards). At most D-Rose would've played himself 4 times (now that sounds stupid), and that would still only account for 5% of his total game data. On top of that, most of his competition only played him twice (since he has 15 opponents in the West, and only 14 in the East), so the biggest group of those who 'had to defend Derrick Rose' only did that for at most 2.5% of their total data collected.

His dRTG could be chalked up to the fact that the Bulls were the best defensive team in the league.

This is at once true and irrelevant. Yes, Derrick Rose benefited from one of the best 2 or 3 help defenders in the league in Joakim Noah, and arguably the best defensive schemes in the league, but so did Rondo for the last 4 years. If we're pretending that Rose's stellar defensive metrics are a product of a system, than we need to make the same assumption about Rondo's.

[BballTim]

What the playoffs show is that Miami is really good, Boston is really old, and Chicago is really thin after Rose when matched up against a team as good as Miami.

Rose carried Chicago all season and through 2 playoff rounds.  Every team goes in trying to stop Rose but most couldn't.  Miami could becasue they are that much better than Indiana or Atlanta.

Switch Rose and Rondo and I think the Celtics beat the Heat and the Bulls don't have home court even in the playoffs.  I can't prove that with any stats but it is what I see when I watch the games.

  Switch a healthy Rondo for Rondo and we're still playing.

Playing where? Surely not in the playoffs. Did Games 1 and 2 not happen?

  This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Did game 1 in the Heat/Bulls series not happen? Surely the Heat are going to get a lot of golf in while the Bulls are in the finals.

People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

  Clearly you're well in the minority in your opinion.

[indeedproceed]

People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

  Clearly you're well in the minority in your opinion.

People didn't think ROndo's defense was all that after 07-08 though either, despite numbers that said otherwise.

I don't know where Rose ranks in defense in the league, but I imagine he's not the porous defender he was 2 years ago. He's improved a lot, and he trusts his coach's plan and his teammates (you know, when Boozer isn't on the floor).

[BballTim]

wait, this is absolutely not true. he's below average, and that's still the consistent knock on him. he COULD be the best due to his size/athleticism combo, but pretty much everyone recognizes he's not there yet.

Someone hasn't watched games this year.

More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Rose is particularly effective in defending isolation sequences, where he allows just 0.61 points per possession. Rose’s lateral quickness becomes a huge asset when opponents go one-on-one. In this sequence, watch how Rose goes over the pick with the Sixers’ Jrue Holiday, and yet still stays with him step for step as he drives into the lane:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


I can pull up other numbers if you'd like. His dRTG is 103, among the best for point guards.

  First of all those numbers are from mid January. Secondly, even then he probably wasn't as good as Rondo because he allows more assists, more rebounds and forces fewer turnovers. Secondly, aside from Rondo trumping Rose in all defense and DPOY voting, his numbers are much better than Roses. PPP, assists and rebounds allowed, DRtg, Defensive win shares. Go ahead and pull up your numbers, I'm fairly confident of what they'll show.

[BballTim]

People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

  Clearly you're well in the minority in your opinion.

People didn't think ROndo's defense was all that after 07-08 though either, despite numbers that said otherwise.

I don't know where Rose ranks in defense in the league, but I imagine he's not the porous defender he was 2 years ago. He's improved a lot, and he trusts his coach's plan and his teammates (you know, when Boozer isn't on the floor).

  A lot of people did think Rondo's defense was good in 07-08. And I'm not saying Rose is a poor defender, but certainly not the best.

[indeedproceed]

wait, this is absolutely not true. he's below average, and that's still the consistent knock on him. he COULD be the best due to his size/athleticism combo, but pretty much everyone recognizes he's not there yet.

Someone hasn't watched games this year.

More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Rose is particularly effective in defending isolation sequences, where he allows just 0.61 points per possession. Rose’s lateral quickness becomes a huge asset when opponents go one-on-one. In this sequence, watch how Rose goes over the pick with the Sixers’ Jrue Holiday, and yet still stays with him step for step as he drives into the lane:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


I can pull up other numbers if you'd like. His dRTG is 103, among the best for point guards.

  First of all those numbers are from mid January. Secondly, even then he probably wasn't as good as Rondo because he allows more assists, more rebounds and forces fewer turnovers. Secondly, aside from Rondo trumping Rose in all defense and DPOY voting, his numbers are much better than Roses. PPP, assists and rebounds allowed, DRtg, Defensive win shares. Go ahead and pull up your numbers, I'm fairly confident of what they'll show.

I feel betrayed by just believing numbers when people post them.

Rondo: 100 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS
Rose: 103 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS

From Synergy Sports:

Rondo PPP: .79
Rose PPP: .78

Rondo Defending Iso Plays: .67 PPP
Rose Defending Iso Plays: .64 PPP

Numbers bear out that they're pretty equal.

People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

  Clearly you're well in the minority in your opinion.

People didn't think ROndo's defense was all that after 07-08 though either, despite numbers that said otherwise.

I don't know where Rose ranks in defense in the league, but I imagine he's not the porous defender he was 2 years ago. He's improved a lot, and he trusts his coach's plan and his teammates (you know, when Boozer isn't on the floor).

  A lot of people did think Rondo's defense was good in 07-08. And I'm not saying Rose is a poor defender, but certainly not the best.

Well yeah they thought he was good, but not 'the best'. I think its similar now..people think Rose is 'pretty good', but not the best defender out there.

[snively]

This year's playoffs showed the danger of building your team around score-first point guards.  Westbrook and Rose had moments of brilliance, but they suffered terribly in efficiency against playoff defense and magnified the problem by ramping up their usage. 

They got their teammates less involved and tried to take more of the scoring burden when things got tough.  They were consistently frustrated by help defenders in the paint and baited into bad jump shots.

Rose (not so much Westbrook) still has the advantage over Rondo in things he can theoretically do to help his team win (score efficiently in volume, hit 3s, draw fouls and hit free throws), but Rondo still does the less glamorous things better (rebounding, good shot selection, controlling the pace, setting up scorers, applying defensive pressure).

Given how much positive affirmation Rose has received for being the top gunner, I would be surprised if he shifted gears and focused on improvement as a floor general and possession generator.  Thus, I feel Rondo will be a more effective player for his team in the foreseeable future.

[BballTim]

wait, this is absolutely not true. he's below average, and that's still the consistent knock on him. he COULD be the best due to his size/athleticism combo, but pretty much everyone recognizes he's not there yet.

Someone hasn't watched games this year.

More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Rose is particularly effective in defending isolation sequences, where he allows just 0.61 points per possession. Rose’s lateral quickness becomes a huge asset when opponents go one-on-one. In this sequence, watch how Rose goes over the pick with the Sixers’ Jrue Holiday, and yet still stays with him step for step as he drives into the lane:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


I can pull up other numbers if you'd like. His dRTG is 103, among the best for point guards.

  First of all those numbers are from mid January. Secondly, even then he probably wasn't as good as Rondo because he allows more assists, more rebounds and forces fewer turnovers. Secondly, aside from Rondo trumping Rose in all defense and DPOY voting, his numbers are much better than Roses. PPP, assists and rebounds allowed, DRtg, Defensive win shares. Go ahead and pull up your numbers, I'm fairly confident of what they'll show.

I feel betrayed by just believing numbers when people post them.

Rondo: 100 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS
Rose: 103 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS

From Synergy Sports:

Rondo PPP: .79
Rose PPP: .78

Rondo Defending Iso Plays: .67 PPP
Rose Defending Iso Plays: .64 PPP

Numbers bear out that they're pretty equal.

  Also factor in more rebounds and assists and fewer turnovers for Rondo's opponents. And the DWS number accumulates over time. Rondo played about 20% fewer minutes than Rose, his number is that much better than Rose's.

People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

  Clearly you're well in the minority in your opinion.

People didn't think ROndo's defense was all that after 07-08 though either, despite numbers that said otherwise.

I don't know where Rose ranks in defense in the league, but I imagine he's not the porous defender he was 2 years ago. He's improved a lot, and he trusts his coach's plan and his teammates (you know, when Boozer isn't on the floor).

  A lot of people did think Rondo's defense was good in 07-08. And I'm not saying Rose is a poor defender, but certainly not the best.

Well yeah they thought he was good, but not 'the best'. I think its similar now..people think Rose is 'pretty good', but not the best defender out there.

  I don't think any pgs are seen as "the best" at that point in their careers, and Rose is a year past that already. Rondo was second team all defense at Rose's age and level of experience, and many people did consider him to be the best defensive pg in the game. The number of point guards that had multiple 1st team all-defenses at Rondo's age or level of experience is extremely short.

[Celtics18]

I think that Rondo is the best defensive PG in the league with Westbrook number two. At 38 years of age, I've been blown away by the defense I've seen from J. Kidd in these playoffs, as well.

Despite making the defensive all first team for a second straight year, I actually thought Rondo's defensive and 50/50 ball playmaking was down somewhat this year.  I think this can be in large part attributed to the plantar fasciitis he struggled with all season long.

As a matter of fact, I think the foot problems contributed more than is generally acknowledged to his overall down year.

I expect him to come back healthy next year and take over where he left off the previous season. 

Our point guard is mind-bogglingly brilliant when he's healthy and on his game.  I can't wait for next year.

[indeedproceed]

 I don't think any pgs are seen as "the best" at that point in their careers, and Rose is a year past that already. Rondo was second team all defense at Rose's age and level of experience, and many people did consider him to be the best defensive pg in the game. The number of point guards that had multiple 1st team all-defenses at Rondo's age or level of experience is extremely short.

Well yeah, but the number of 22 yr old point guards that get to start 77 regular season games with some combination of James Posey (when he cared about defense), a rededicated Paul Pierce, Kendrick "I ain't hurt yet" Perkins, Tony Allen, PJ Brown, and Kevin Garnett in a DPOY year is also a pretty small one.

Rondo was allowed to be a riverboat gambler that first season because Garnett was still healthy, angry, and ringless.

Remember, Joakim Noah wasn't really considered a defensive force until about halfway through last season, and Thibs coming on really locked Chicago into gear.

Rondo though only had one year to suffer through with crappy defense and a shoddy supporting cast. Rose had a few more.

[Celtics18]

 I don't think any pgs are seen as "the best" at that point in their careers, and Rose is a year past that already. Rondo was second team all defense at Rose's age and level of experience, and many people did consider him to be the best defensive pg in the game. The number of point guards that had multiple 1st team all-defenses at Rondo's age or level of experience is extremely short.

Well yeah, but the number of 22 yr old point guards that get to start 77 regular season games with some combination of James Posey (when he cared about defense), a rededicated Paul Pierce, Kendrick "I ain't hurt yet" Perkins, Tony Allen, PJ Brown, and Kevin Garnett in a DPOY year is also a pretty small one.

Rondo was allowed to be a riverboat gambler that first season because Garnett was still healthy, angry, and ringless.

Remember, Joakim Noah wasn't really considered a defensive force until about halfway through last season, and Thibs coming on really locked Chicago into gear.

Rondo though only had one year to suffer through with crappy defense and a shoddy supporting cast. Rose had a few more.

But, Rondo won the starting point guard job in his rookie season on that crappy team primarily due to his abilities as a defensive disruptor.  His offense was pretty raw then.  If it hadn't been for his defense, we might have Sebastian Telfair or Delonte West as our starting point guard right now. 

[BballTim]

I feel betrayed by just believing numbers when people post them.

Rondo: 100 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS
Rose: 103 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS

From Synergy Sports:

Rondo PPP: .79
Rose PPP: .78

Rondo Defending Iso Plays: .67 PPP
Rose Defending Iso Plays: .64 PPP

Numbers bear out that they're pretty equal.

  By the way, it's worth pointing out that Rondo's play was significantly impacted by health issues for most of the year while Rose was having the best year of his career. I'd be willing to bet that Rondo's numbers were better before his late season slump and better still before the foot problems started hobbling him in December.

[BballTim]

 I don't think any pgs are seen as "the best" at that point in their careers, and Rose is a year past that already. Rondo was second team all defense at Rose's age and level of experience, and many people did consider him to be the best defensive pg in the game. The number of point guards that had multiple 1st team all-defenses at Rondo's age or level of experience is extremely short.

Well yeah, but the number of 22 yr old point guards that get to start 77 regular season games with some combination of James Posey (when he cared about defense), a rededicated Paul Pierce, Kendrick "I ain't hurt yet" Perkins, Tony Allen, PJ Brown, and Kevin Garnett in a DPOY year is also a pretty small one.

  Off the top of my head I'd say 40-50 point guards fit that criteria.

  Seriously, could you make it any more specific?

Rondo though only had one year to suffer through with crappy defense and a shoddy supporting cast. Rose had a few more.

  When Rondo was a rookie the Celts defense was 8.3 points better with him on the court and he led the league in steal%. His numbers in that rookie year (from 82games) look to be somewhat better than Rose's rookie year on a playoff team.

[hpantazo]

I think that Rondo is the best defensive PG in the league with Westbrook number two. At 38 years of age, I've been blown away by the defense I've seen from J. Kidd in these playoffs, as well.

Despite making the defensive all first team for a second straight year, I actually thought Rondo's defensive and 50/50 ball playmaking was down somewhat this year.  I think this can be in large part attributed to the plantar fasciitis he struggled with all season long.

As a matter of fact, I think the foot problems contributed more than is generally acknowledged to his overall down year.

I expect him to come back healthy next year and take over where he left off the previous season. 

Our point guard is mind-bogglingly brilliant when he's healthy and on his game.  I can't wait for next year.

This is the single biggest reason why we can still win 18 next year. Rondo was brilliant to start off this past season, then got plantar fascitis and never really recovered, and of course, the elbow injury in the playoffs. Add to this the wear and tear he had from playing a ton of minutes the year before up through game 7 of the finals and then trying out for team usa instead of resting. Once Rondo recovers this summer, we are automatically a much improved team regardless of who we sign or draft.