Would you make this trade? Rondo for Westbrook

[MBz]

I don't know.  It would be interesting, he attacks the basket very well.  Good foul shooter, his FG% has improved each year.  Rondo does take care of the ball better and does defend a little better.  I think he's a better scorer than Rondo and I do think we need some more scoring out of the position if we're going to continue with the center by committee concept.

[action781]

Rondo is the best passing and defending PG in the league.

Is Westbrook the best at anything?

I'd say that Nash is the best passing PG in the league.  And if I had my pick of PGs in the league to defend an elite pg on the last possession of the game, Rondo would rank probably around 3rd.

Westbrook is a better overall player than Rondo I think.  I think this was clearly shown in November when Westbrook led a Durant-less team of bums to a victory over Rondo and a stacked celtics team IN BOSTON.  Westbrook clearly showed he's a better player than Rondo that game.  I haven't had a doubt since.

Are you serious?

Rondo and Nash are clearly the two best. You can take the 38-year-old, I'll take the 25-year-old. Nash is more consistent though, I'll give him that.

How can you put Rondo third "defending an elite PG in the last possession of the game," and not name them? Maybe because they don't exist? If they do, they are yours. I'll take Rondo for 48 minutes a game, 82 games a year.

And did you really bring up one game in November? I guess there isn't a doubt in your mind that a Durant-less Thunder team are better than the C's? Besides, Rondo fouled out that game IIRC. Joke of a game, bigger joke of an argument.

Yes, I'm serious.  Is that OK for me to have an opinion that differs from you?  Or did I mistake that your two initial statements were not opinions, but rather facts?

I would say Rondo is "around 3rd" because I think that he, D-Will, Rose, and CP are the 4 best defensive point guards in the league.  If I were to order them, it would go: CP, Rose, Rondo, D-Will but I find them all very very close.  So I say he is "around 3rd".  Westbrook is actually up there too IMO and D-Will is slipping the more I think about it.

  So, let me get this straight. The game in Boston, where Westbrook scored 31 and OKC won showed he was a better overall player than Rondo, and not the game at OKC when Westbrook scored 16 and the Thunder *lost*. Makes sense, I guess. Luckily Rondo was suffering from plantar fascitis at the time or we may never have known for sure.

  Westbrook's 2 game totals to go along with those points? 16 assists and 15 turnovers. Now *that's* and all-around player.

 Yeah, that is the game which showed me.  Westbrook absolutely dominated that game and had absolutely nobody to help him.  Here's a relation:  Take a look at the Celtics/Cavs playoffs series of last year.  When the celtics beat the cavs, did everybody say, "Celts beat the cavs, that goes to show that Pierce is better than Lebron"?  No, because everybody knows that Pierce's teammates were far superior.  But, if the Cavs had won, would it have been fair to say "Cavs beat the celts, that shows that Lebron is much better than Pierce"?  Yes, because they would have won despite him having an inferior cast.  That's how I see the comparison between Rondo/Westbrook in those 2 games this season.

p.s. 16 assists in 2 games isn't a bad total... Rondo only had 17 in those 2 games and he scored less than half as many points as Westbrook did

[BballTim]

 Yeah, that is the game which showed me.  Westbrook absolutely dominated that game and had absolutely nobody to help him.  Here's a relation:  Take a look at the Celtics/Cavs playoffs series of last year.  When the celtics beat the cavs, did everybody say, "Celts beat the cavs, that goes to show that Pierce is better than Lebron"?  No, because everybody knows that Pierce's teammates were far superior.  But, if the Cavs had won, would it have been fair to say "Cavs beat the celts, that shows that Lebron is much better than Pierce"?  Yes, because they would have won despite him having an inferior cast.  That's how I see the comparison between Rondo/Westbrook in those 2 games this season.

  Ok, if you think that the only time Westbrook's ever dominated Rondo is the one game that matters and ignore the fact that Rondo was struggling with injuries at the time I don't think anything I say will sway you.

p.s. 16 assists in 2 games isn't a bad total... Rondo only had 17 in those 2 games and he scored less than half as many points as Westbrook did

  Haha. No, 16 assists in two games isn't a horrible total for a point guard, but it looks pretty bad sitting next to a total of 15 turnovers. A 1/1 assist/turnover is, well, really bad.

[KungPoweChicken]

Yes, I'd probably make the trade, but that doesn't mean OKC would.

[Eddie20]

Yeah, I'll do it, but I'll ask for a future pick or two.

Rondo's back and feet (plantar fasciitis) are a concern as he ages.

Westbrook is 2 years younger. It may not sound like much, but the improvements he can make from 22 to 24 can't be measured.

We would have an extra 5M per year in the summer of 2012 to work with, as Westbrook is still under his rookie contract, and the qualifying offer for him that summer will be 6.7M. We could extend the qualifying offer with the wink-wink promise that we will offer him the extension after we sign some major FA's.

[Celtics18]

Yeah, I'll do it, but I'll ask for a future pick or two.

Rondo's back and feet (plantar fasciitis) are a concern as he ages.

Westbrook is 2 years younger. It may not sound like much, but the improvements he can make from 22 to 24 can't be measured.

We would have an extra 5M per year in the summer of 2012 to work with, as Westbrook is still under his rookie contract, and the qualifying offer for him that summer will be 6.7M. We could extend the qualifying offer with the wink-wink promise that we will offer him the extension after we sign some major FA's.

I don't know about the back, but I wouldn't be concerned about the feet for the long term.  I've had plantar fascitiis, and while it can be extraordinarily painful while you have it, the good thing is that it goes away.

[rtifishul]

Westbrook is a gunner, there's no way I take him even in today's NBA. The guy is Marbury 2.0

[Eja117]

I don't watch enough of Westbrook to know.

I have to wonder what the rest of the league thinks of Rondo

If I'm OKC I might answer the phone like this....."Straight up?  Wait a minute. Rondo can't shoot a free throw. He can't shoot a jumper. He has attitude issues.  And he has a messed up elbow.  Let's see him shoot over 65% from the line, over 33% from 3 point land and hit jumpers somewhat consistently and then we can discuss straight up"

[cityceltic]

Only if u plan on having Westbook play shooting guard because he is not a point! dont believe he would work well with a veteran group that the celtics have.

[BballTim]

I don't watch enough of Westbrook to know.

I have to wonder what the rest of the league thinks of Rondo

If I'm OKC I might answer the phone like this....."Straight up?  Wait a minute. Rondo can't shoot a free throw. He can't shoot a jumper. He has attitude issues.  And he has a messed up elbow.  Let's see him shoot over 65% from the line, over 33% from 3 point land and hit jumpers somewhat consistently and then we can discuss straight up"

  What if Presti didn't learn most of what he knows about Rondo in the celticsblog forums? It would probably be an entirely different conversation.

[action781]

 Yeah, that is the game which showed me.  Westbrook absolutely dominated that game and had absolutely nobody to help him.  Here's a relation:  Take a look at the Celtics/Cavs playoffs series of last year.  When the celtics beat the cavs, did everybody say, "Celts beat the cavs, that goes to show that Pierce is better than Lebron"?  No, because everybody knows that Pierce's teammates were far superior.  But, if the Cavs had won, would it have been fair to say "Cavs beat the celts, that shows that Lebron is much better than Pierce"?  Yes, because they would have won despite him having an inferior cast.  That's how I see the comparison between Rondo/Westbrook in those 2 games this season.

  Ok, if you think that the only time Westbrook's ever dominated Rondo is the one game that matters and ignore the fact that Rondo was struggling with injuries at the time I don't think anything I say will sway you.

p.s. 16 assists in 2 games isn't a bad total... Rondo only had 17 in those 2 games and he scored less than half as many points as Westbrook did

  Haha. No, 16 assists in two games isn't a horrible total for a point guard, but it looks pretty bad sitting next to a total of 15 turnovers. A 1/1 assist/turnover is, well, really bad.

You say that's the only game Westbrook has ever dominated Rondo... I'd say 21/10/2 turnovers (on a weaker team I emphasize) compared to 16/10/4 turnovers (on a stronger celtics team) in a Thunder win in March '10 was another game you could say Westbrook dominated Rondo. 

And even if you say that's not a "dominating" performance, why is one game not enough?  Can you find me a single game that Rondo has dominated Westbrook?  Rondo has never outscored Westbrook and in the last 2 seasons (essentially taking away Westbrook's rookie season when Westbrook wasn't even always a starter), their assist numbers were 6-4, 11-10, 10-10, 7-6.  So, I'd say that Westbrook has dominated Rondo at least once, and Rondo has never dominated Westbrook.  And that game was in their most recent matchup.

You're probably right; I think my opinion just won't be swayed.  While watching that game, my mind had been made up and it would take me seeing Rondo outplay Westbrook to bring them back to a level playing field in my mind.

[BballTim]

 Yeah, that is the game which showed me.  Westbrook absolutely dominated that game and had absolutely nobody to help him.  Here's a relation:  Take a look at the Celtics/Cavs playoffs series of last year.  When the celtics beat the cavs, did everybody say, "Celts beat the cavs, that goes to show that Pierce is better than Lebron"?  No, because everybody knows that Pierce's teammates were far superior.  But, if the Cavs had won, would it have been fair to say "Cavs beat the celts, that shows that Lebron is much better than Pierce"?  Yes, because they would have won despite him having an inferior cast.  That's how I see the comparison between Rondo/Westbrook in those 2 games this season.

  Ok, if you think that the only time Westbrook's ever dominated Rondo is the one game that matters and ignore the fact that Rondo was struggling with injuries at the time I don't think anything I say will sway you.

p.s. 16 assists in 2 games isn't a bad total... Rondo only had 17 in those 2 games and he scored less than half as many points as Westbrook did

  Haha. No, 16 assists in two games isn't a horrible total for a point guard, but it looks pretty bad sitting next to a total of 15 turnovers. A 1/1 assist/turnover is, well, really bad.

You say that's the only game Westbrook has ever dominated Rondo... I'd say 21/10/2 turnovers (on a weaker team I emphasize) compared to 16/10/4 turnovers (on a stronger celtics team) in a Thunder win in March '10 was another game you could say Westbrook dominated Rondo. 

  Rondo had 5 more steals and a couple more rebounds than Westbrook that game. I'd call it a draw.

And even if you say that's not a "dominating" performance, why is one game not enough?  Can you find me a single game that Rondo has dominated Westbrook? 

  Here's where we tend to disagree. Rondo's value to the team goes beyond how many points he scores or his stats because he makes the other players on the team better. Westbrook doesn't. I posted this somewhere today, but the Thunder are 5-0 when Westbrook takes 20 or less shots in the playoffs and 2-4 when he takes more than 20 shots. He's scoring 27 a game in losses and 20 a game in wins. You look at those games and see dominating performances by a great player, I see a somewhat inefficient scorer hurting his team by shooting too much and not passing enough. You want the pg who puts up better numbers, I want the pg that helps the team win more.

[Chris]

That would be a very interesting trade.  On the one hand, I think Westbrook is a significantly better player to build around in the long term.  He has a game like Dwayne Wade or Derek Rose, and those guys are easier to build around IMO than a guy like Rondo.  You can surround them with defensive role players and spot shooters, and have a very good team pretty quickly.  With a guy like Rondo, I really think you need to surround him with more talented offensive players, and those guys are harder to come by.

On the other hand, Westbrook is a bad fit with the Big 3, and I think it would actually give them a worse chance at contending again next year.

So, I think if they did make that trade, I would prefer that they went with more of the blow it up approach.  And I am not sure I am ready for that right now...but maybe ask me again next year.

[LB3533]

For Rondo you need to have an established defense with some young legs to get the transition game going.

Other than that you need to surround Rondo with skilled shooters in the halfcourt.

Pairing Rondo with a low post presence will KILL Rondo's game and the team's offense.

If you are building for long term success, you trade Rondo for CP3 if at all possible.

[paulcowens]

Pairing Rondo with a low post presence would be brilliant, as we saw with Shaq.  He loves to pass to the Bigs down low, and to penetrate and lay off to them.

Interestingly, Westbrook pulled a Rondo tonight and it helped OKC.  We seem to be on the right track on this thread, though I'd like to keep Rondo.

I think that Rondo has untold upside.  He's a visionary.  Just needs to shoot better and to be more aggressive more consistently.