Author Topic: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread  (Read 685155 times)

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Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3390 on: June 09, 2011, 12:50:32 AM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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In Hakeem's prime(1993-94) there were 27 teams and just not nearly as many top quality big men in the league or that many quality big men per team.

Hakeem's prime was 1 year?

Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Shaq, Vlade Divac..that's 5 probable HOF centers right there. I wouldn't say there was a dearth of big men.
I seriously doubt Motumbo and Divac ever sniff the HOF.


Basketball HoF, Divac absolutely could. 2 silvers and a fiba title.
His HOF probability on basketball-reference.com  is one tenth of one percent, and their formula is usually really accurate.

None of their predictors have anything to do with international success.Sergei A Belov probably wouldn't have ranked at all, but he's in the Hall.
Vlade played 16 years in the NBA. He's not like Arvidis Sabonis who played some here and some there. Particularly his entire work as a basketball player was in the NBA. He's not making the Hall for a couple of international summer tourneys.


2 Olympics and two world champs aren't a couple of tournaments. I don't think you can do that and play in the league for 16 years and not be in the hall.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3391 on: June 09, 2011, 12:51:08 AM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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In Hakeem's prime(1993-94) there were 27 teams and just not nearly as many top quality big men in the league or that many quality big men per team.

Hakeem's prime was 1 year?

Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Shaq, Vlade Divac..that's 5 probable HOF centers right there. I wouldn't say there was a dearth of big men.
I seriously doubt Motumbo and Divac ever sniff the HOF.

Mutumbo's in, come on. 8 straight all-stars, 4 DPOY's with 3 consecutive, 2nd all-time in blocks?

How is that guy gonna miss the Hall, coupled with the fact that everyone loves him and he's a charity monster when it comes to his homeland. He's a homerun if I ever heard it!


+1

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3392 on: June 09, 2011, 01:02:22 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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In Hakeem's prime(1993-94) there were 27 teams and just not nearly as many top quality big men in the league or that many quality big men per team.

Hakeem's prime was 1 year?

Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Shaq, Vlade Divac..that's 5 probable HOF centers right there. I wouldn't say there was a dearth of big men.
I seriously doubt Motumbo and Divac ever sniff the HOF.

Mutumbo's in, come on. 8 straight all-stars, 4 DPOY's with 3 consecutive, 2nd all-time in blocks?

How is that guy gonna miss the Hall, coupled with the fact that everyone loves him and he's a charity monster when it comes to his homeland. He's a homerun if I ever heard it!
I see Mutombo in the same way I do Mark Eaton. One dimensional big man with limited game everywhere else and no championships. Mark Eaton..no Hall. I see the same for Dikembe.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3393 on: June 09, 2011, 01:05:32 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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BTW hasn't Vlade Divac already been out of the league 5 years? Has he even been seriously discussed for the Hall yet or had people mentioning the travesty of his not being in yet?

It's not happening.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3394 on: June 09, 2011, 05:53:04 AM »

Offline Who

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I think Mutombo is in a tough spot because he didn't play for talented enough teams during his prime.

Those Nuggets teams never got further than the second round. Ditto for the Hawks. Finally, in Phily he got an opportunity to play for a Championship but came up short. Then his best years where behind him and he became a part time starter / drifter for a few years.

It's not a Hall of Fame resume for a team winning standpoint.

-----------------------------------------

That said, I am sure his charity work will be a big positive factor for him ... and I think that might put him over the top and get him in the HoF. I don't think they should care about off-court things (positive or negative) but I think that it carries a fair bit of weight around there.

Plus, I think being part of that famous upset over Seattle works in his favour quite a bit also. They were the first eight seed to knock out a first seed, right? I think they were.

----------------------------------------------

The skill-set he had as a perennial DPOY candidate (plus 4 time winner) + one of the league's leading rebounders would have easily translated to Championship level play as a second or more likely third best player on a title winning side ... he just never got enough talent around him.

He never had that major talent alongside him in Denver. He had a couple of very good but not All-NBA caliber talent in Atlanta with Steve Smith and Mookie Blaylock. Allen Iverson was really the only player he got to play with during his prime. By the time he met up with Jason Kidd, Mutombo was only playing 20 minutes a night. Which is a shame.

Deke did have some great playoff performances with Denver, Atlanta and Phily. An elite possession creator / defensive anchor.

It's not like he disappeared or wasn't dominant when he played in those big games. He just didn't have enough firepower around him.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3395 on: June 09, 2011, 06:01:42 AM »

Offline Who

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Vlade Divac might make the HoF because of his international play + being one of the first Euros to come over and make an impact. For paving the way for all the other Euros that come over nowadays.

Based on his playing days in the NBA, Divac doesn't deserve it but I think he has a fair chance of getting in due to those reasons. Not right away but at some point down the road.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3396 on: June 09, 2011, 06:21:28 AM »

Offline Who

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Quote
Historical Draft 2011: LA Lakers: Coach: Glenn "Doc" Rivers

C - Kareem70-71/B. Wallace04-05/J. O'Neal03-04/R. Sampson85-86
PF - KG03-04/B. Wallace04-05/E. Brand05-06/R. Sampson85-86
SF - Worthy87-88/Michael Cooper86-87/KG03-04/E. Jones97-98
SG - J. Dumars88-89/L. Sprewell93-94/E.Jones97-98/M.Cooper86-87
PG - G. Payton95-96/R.Rondo09-10
Hmm ...

Big lineup

PG - Payton
SG - Garnett
SF - Worthy
PF - R.Sampson (jump-shooting), Jermaine O'Neal if more D is required
C - Kareem

Quick Lineup

PG - Payton
SG - EJ
SF - McGrady
PF - Worthy
C - Kareem / Garnett
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:03:04 AM by Who »

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3397 on: June 09, 2011, 06:30:01 AM »

Offline Who

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So - would Hakeem Olajuwon have won those two rings if Michael had played those two years?
Houston had a lot of success against Chicago over the years. I am not sure but I think that Houston won every game on their homecourt against MJ's Bulls for 10-12 years up until about 1998. Nobody caused Chicago's defense more problems than Hakeem Olajuwon did. It's a shame they never met in the Finals.

The Bulls would be favourites but I think the Rockets would have a fighting chance.

Especially in that 1995 campaign after Clyde Drexler joined the team. I think that Hakeem could play MJ to a standstill in a Rockets-Bulls Finals but I view Pippen as the deciding factor and the reason they would be favourites to win in 1994. With Clyde on board in 1995, I think he neutralize that advantage and put the Rockets on even ground.

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3398 on: June 09, 2011, 06:39:17 AM »

Offline Who

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The funny thing with Michael is that lost in the hoopla of how "great" he was (because he was indeed great), is that he needed Scotty.

No way that Michael wins six without Scotty. He'd win maybe two rings (if that) without Scotty Pippen?

Jordan wins no rings without Pippen or some replacement level player.



Well, in short - Yes - Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, and Majerle - are all championship-level players.

Even Patrick Ewing went to a Finals.

.............................................

The unfortunate thing is that these players did not actually defeat Jordan (and Scotty) and win a ring, but they actually competed on that level, and in my eyes they are considered as such.

They competed at a high level but not on the same level of a Michael Jordan or other top Champions.

They were incapable of leading their team to top of the mountain when they had to face a guy like MJ (or a Bird or a Magic Johnson).

They were great player but not that great. Not at that level.

That is my take on it on it anyway. Those teams lost for legitimate reasons and the biggest reason was the talent disparity between the top player on either side (Drexler, Barkley, K.Malone, S.Kemp vs M.Jordan, H.Olajuwon).

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3399 on: June 09, 2011, 08:00:06 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Quote
Historical Draft 2011: LA Lakers: Coach: Glenn "Doc" Rivers

C - Kareem70-71/B. Wallace04-05/J. O'Neal03-04/R. Sampson85-86
PF - KG03-04/B. Wallace04-05/E. Brand05-06/R. Sampson85-86
SF - Worthy87-88/Michael Cooper86-87/KG03-04/E. Jones97-98
SG - J. Dumars88-89/L. Sprewell93-94/E.Jones97-98/M.Cooper86-87
PG - G. Payton95-96/R.Rondo09-10
Hmm ...

Big lineup

PG - Payton
SG - Garnett
SF - Worthy
PF - R.Sampson (jump-shooting), Jermaine O'Neal if more D is required
C - Kareem

Quick Lineup

PG - Payton
SG - JJ
SF - McGrady
PF - Worthy
C - Kareem / Garnett

Who - thank you for the lineup suggestions. Everything except JJ checks out for me. I think with you quick lineup suggestion, you mean:

PG - Payton
SG - Sprewell
SF - Eddie Jones/Cooper
PF - Worthy
C- Kareem / KG

And yes your Big Lineup suggestion is very possible, in that for the year I picked KG (03-04) he was very capable (and often did) of playing all positions on the floor for Sota.

Slightly off-topic, but I think Flip Saunders is an under-rated coach because of this. He saw the talent, considerable skills, and leadership in KG - and allowed him to flourish to that extent.

KG is the main cog in my team that makes it work and allows for multiple matchup problems with opponents.

He also allows us, with the quick lineup, to become one of the fastest teams here in this draft.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:12:21 AM by GreenFaith1819 »

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3400 on: June 09, 2011, 08:01:01 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3401 on: June 09, 2011, 08:11:53 AM »

Offline Who

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Quote
Historical Draft 2011: LA Lakers: Coach: Glenn "Doc" Rivers

C - Kareem70-71/B. Wallace04-05/J. O'Neal03-04/R. Sampson85-86
PF - KG03-04/B. Wallace04-05/E. Brand05-06/R. Sampson85-86
SF - Worthy87-88/Michael Cooper86-87/KG03-04/E. Jones97-98
SG - J. Dumars88-89/L. Sprewell93-94/E.Jones97-98/M.Cooper86-87
PG - G. Payton95-96/R.Rondo09-10
Hmm ...

Big lineup

PG - Payton
SG - Garnett
SF - Worthy
PF - R.Sampson (jump-shooting), Jermaine O'Neal if more D is required
C - Kareem

Quick Lineup

PG - Payton
SG - JJ
SF - McGrady
PF - Worthy
C - Kareem / Garnett

Who - thank you for the lineup suggestions. Everything except JJ checks out for me. I think with you quick lineup suggestion, you mean:

PG - Payton
SG - Eddie Jones
SF - Michael Cooper
PF - Worthy
C- Kareem / KG

And yes your Big Lineup suggestion is very possible, in that for the year I picked KG (03-04) he was very capable (and often did) of playing all positions on the floor for Sota.

Slightly off-topic, but I think Flip Saunders is an under-rated coach because of this. He saw the talent, considerable skills, and leadership in KG - and allowed him to flourish to that extent.

KG is the main cog in my team that makes it work and allows for multiple matchup problems with opponents.

He also allows us, with the quick lineup, to become one of the fastest teams here in this draft.
Ah yes, sorry, I got confused between two teams when I wrote that post. I thought you had Joe Johnson and Tracy McGrady.

I even quoted your team in my post too. Awful. Clearly wasn't awake yet.

-------------------------

Hmm ... okay, I don't like your teams backup wings. Too many SGs. I think you lack balance there and that that limits your teams versatility.

I think your small lineup, with Worthy at PF, will struggle to compete on the wings with Eddie Jones and Michael Cooper. In terms of overall talent relative to the opponent, they are just not good enough. You'll be at a disadvantage there on a regular basis when you use it.

Also, when you go small at the four (with Worthy), ideally you want perimeter players who are strong rebounders to help offset the loss in rebounding (at PF). E.Jones and M.Cooper are average rebounding SGs who will struggle to pickup that slack. Payton gives you a little extra but not enough to make up for the decline in rebounding at the two forward positions. This small lineup would probably struggle on the backboards vs other teams.

Given that, I think I would avoid those small lineups for the most part and stay big. That is where your team's best strengths lie.

Keep Worthy as a full time SF instead of a combo forward. Need his size and rebounding at that position. Keep two bigs on the floor and maintain your interior D + rebounding.

----------------------------------------

In terms of matching up against small lineups, Garnett's defensive range at PF will let you matchup against just about anybody so you can stay big comfortably without being forced to go small. Get or eliminate the matchup advantage that way.

I just enjoy James Worthy as a part time  undersized PF. I was hoping to get him some minutes there. It is not to be.

----------------------------------------

I really like that big lineup and it's ability to create mismatches across the whole perimeter. That will give you a dynamite post up team.

Payton, Garnett and Worthy. Very strong post players especially when you can create a size advantage.

On the big lineup, you can't play Ben Wallace because it will teams to hide their defender on him and keep their PF on KG. Neutralizes the advantage you are trying to create. It needs to be someone with offensive talent (R.Sampson, J.O'Neal, E.Brand).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:20:59 AM by Who »

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3402 on: June 09, 2011, 08:26:33 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Well, Who I honestly don't think there is much of a talent drop off even without the mis-type of Tracy McGrady.

The reason I say this is because even when he was fully healthy and among the top players in the NBA - there always seemed to be questions about why he could take his team beyond the 1st round.

KG did - with lesser talent than T-Mac.

I love T-Mac, but I truly believe that even with the typo here our lineup works.

And please check basketball-ref....Jones and Cooper did in fact play SG/SF, which allows for my versatility here.

Again - I wasn't even considering using such lineups as you suggested until....you suggested :).

But even with the correction, LA is still one of the more versatile teams here in the draft, as I look around at each roster.

Again - this team won't outscore you - I did have plans to draft proven scorers, but in picking players like Alex English, Reggie Miller, Magic or such I had valid concerns with their defensive ability.

I even had J-Kidd on my radar for a bit - until I saw his FG%.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:56:45 AM by GreenFaith1819 »

Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3403 on: June 09, 2011, 08:37:36 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I personally don't see KG as a viable option at SG.  He simply didn't have the speed and quickness to defend all-time greats at the position.


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Re: 2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread
« Reply #3404 on: June 09, 2011, 08:39:50 AM »

Offline Who

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I personally don't see KG as a viable option at SG.  He simply didn't have the speed and quickness to defend all-time greats at the position.
Garnett is 7-1 with long arms. He has the quickness to stand off of them and defend them effectively that way.