2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[StartOrien]

Greenfaith, would you put Dumars or Payton on D-Wade? I've been debating this internally for a good ten minutes and would like to see your take.

(I swear this isn't a trap or anything, just curious)

[StartOrien]

I'll say this:

I, like everyone else, love my team, and I really think they'd perform well and would have a great chance of winning this thing, BUT...

I don't think I could beat the Lakers. It's that one team in the hypothetical playoff bracket that I'd want to avoid. Tank a few games in the regular season to change my bracket position in order to best avoid them.

They match up to my team, really, really well with me, and I hate them for that.

Probably would have to limit Marion's numbers and hope to get more offense out of the 3.

[GreenFaith1819]

Greenfaith, would you put Dumars or Payton on D-Wade? I've been debating this internally for a good ten minutes and would like to see your take.

(I swear this isn't a trap or anything, just curious)

Either one, to be honest.

Any time Michael Jordan gives a player props for slowing him down, I trust Joe Dumars on any player here.

[mgent]

Greenfaith, would you put Dumars or Payton on D-Wade? I've been debating this internally for a good ten minutes and would like to see your take.

(I swear this isn't a trap or anything, just curious)

Either one, to be honest.

Any time Michael Jordan gives a player props for slowing him down, I trust Joe Dumars on any player here.

Didn't Payton hold Jordan and the Bulls to their lowest offensive output in an NBA Finals?

[mgent]

Yupp:

In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.

I was gonna say Payton anyway.  Can't go wrong with Dumars though.

[GreenFaith1819]

Yupp:

In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.

I was gonna say Payton anyway.  Can't go wrong with Dumars though.

TP for the assist, mgent. I'm on break from class and couldn't answer you right away.

But I'll take your word for it, as far as Payton vs Jordan in 96 Finals.

Too bad that SEA team only had Kemp and GP to really shoulder the load then.

[Who]

Yupp:

In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.

I was gonna say Payton anyway.  Can't go wrong with Dumars though.

Not sure if I am remembering this right ... but didn't George Karl keep Gary Payton off of Michael Jordan until Game 3 or 4 in that series. Trying not to wear him out defensively and keep him fresh offensively.

Then after finally switching Gary onto Michael + some home-cooking ... Seattle finally woke up and gave Chicago a real game for the rest of the series.

[Redz]

http://Portland: I like the make up of your team, I think you have a good mesh.  How do you see Yao fairing against other bigs? As a lot of them are more agile and athletic than he is.

I'm really not looking for a lot from Yao.  Maybe 15-20 to keep his brittle bones from crumbling.  With Thurmond to pick up the slack defensively off the pine, I'm really just asking Yao to stick around the perimeter, draw the opponents bigs out of the paint, and hit his shots.  On D...just take up some space, and grab some boards that Thurmond misses.  Alter some shots.  Guard the hoop.

I think you should keep Yao glued to the bench when facing quick opposing centers. Use Nate Thurmond against those backup C's.

Hmm ... no other backup bigs, I would have liked to have seen you pickup a power forward to play a couple of minutes there when you wish to sit Yao down.

--------------------------------------

Oh, you have Larry Bird. Okay, that will work. He can give you some minutes as a backup PF in those situations.

Oooh, keep Tiny on the floor and stick Bernard King + Sam Jones or Andrew Toney at the two. Spread the floor out and let (1) Tiny attack off the dribble (2) Bird take advantage of his perimeter skills and quickness versus backup PF (3) let B.King do his thing.

That would be a fun second unit lineup (when Yao doesn't work for defensive reasons due to a lack of quickness).

Oh, you have Brandon Roy too, he'd work as a creative ball-handling guard too. Can give Tiny some rest. A B.Roy / L.Bird pick and roll would be murder to defend against. Tiny's quickness in a similar pick and roll would also be deadly. Especially with only one big man (N.Thurmond or D.Robinson) on the floor with loads of space for Tiny or Roy to exploit. 

Fun team !!

Just sifting through the many pages of comments today (you guys really are unbelievable with the depth of conversation!)...Anyhow found your comments Who.

It is a fun team and that was my main focus in this thing: to have fun and pick players that I like.

I like my team versatility and the opportunities to offset offensive minded guys with defensive minded guys.

[GreenFaith1819]

I'll say this:

I, like everyone else, love my team, and I really think they'd perform well and would have a great chance of winning this thing, BUT...

I don't think I could beat the Lakers. It's that one team in the hypothetical playoff bracket that I'd want to avoid. Tank a few games in the regular season to change my bracket position in order to best avoid them.

They match up to my team, really, really well with me, and I hate them for that.

Probably would have to limit Marion's numbers and hope to get more offense out of the 3.

Don't sell yourself short...my team (and everyone else's here, for that matter) would have trouble vs ANY team with Russell.

Bill had such an effect on his teammates...I think that with Charles Barkley (or Shawn Kemp) Russell would be perhaps one of a very few that could get the absolute best out of those two at all times.

Both of them were already great players - but Russell had a way with leadership to get every single drop of potential out of you or a team.

The ONLY other players (IMO) that seemed to do that in my memory?

Magic

Larry

KG

Russell

Michael

Isiah

Lebron (to a certain point, but he is still rather young)

Maybe a few others I'm short on time.

But yeah Bill Russell elevates your already great team, period.

[Who]

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

I think Jerry West can defend the point but I am not wild about Chicago's wing defense with Magic + Durant. I think they are going to be vulnerable there.

When Dennis Rodman enters the game, he'll shore up that weakness some.

You may have missed the team profile area where I discussed how I was using my SFs:

I am with you on Dave Debusschere defending both forward positions at a high level.

Not convinced he or Magic can defend talented quick guards (PGs or SGs) at an above average level though. J.West can only cover one of those positions at a time. I think you'll have to give something up there defensively (not to say that your lineup overall necessarily gets outplayed).

-----------------------------------------

Dennis Rodman can defend those quicker guards though.

However, I do have concerns with Rodman when matched against elite team defenders. I am worried about his offensive limitations when matched up against an elite help defender on the opposite team. Someone like Scottie Pippen.

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

Against non-elite team defenders, I have no qualms about playing Rodman at small forward.

Still have an issue (defensively) with Magic with Rodman on the court since most teams have quality offensive players at all three perimeter positions. He is going to be tough to hide defensively. Although, of course, Magic adds more than enough elsewhere to make up for his limitations.

[Roy H.]

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

That's basically my point.  I don't think the Bulls' offense is good enough to go up against teams 4-on-5, which is essentially what they'd be doing with Rodman (especially if Rodman is out on the perimeter as a SF).  Having a guy like Pippen or Lebron or Bird or whoever else roam and help on the Bulls' other four players is going to hurt.

For instance, look at the Bulls against Portland:

Moncrief can adequately defend West
Robinson can adequately defend Walton
Webber can adequately defend Reed

The one mismatch would seem to be Magic against Tiny.  However, with Rodman chilling on the perimeter, Bird is free to help on Magic, mitigating the Bulls perceived advantage.  

Inserting Rodman into the starting lineup means that your starting small forward will be outscored by 15 points every night, and opposing teams will be able to limit your other four starters because they'll be using five defenders to do so.

EDIT:  Or, even worse, match up Chicago against Seattle.

Olajuwon limits Walton
Lucas limits Reed
Pippen or Reggie limits West
Kidd limits Magic

That allows either Pippen or Reggie Lewis to literally be a disruptor all over the court.  That's going to be killer for Chicago's offense.

[mgent]

Yupp:

In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.

I was gonna say Payton anyway.  Can't go wrong with Dumars though.

Not sure if I am remembering this right ... but didn't George Karl keep Gary Payton off of Michael Jordan until Game 3 or 4 in that series. Trying not to wear him out defensively and keep him fresh offensively.

Then after finally switching Gary onto Michael + some home-cooking ... Seattle finally woke up and gave Chicago a real game for the rest of the series.

I don't know if he just switched PG and SG duties strategically (I think game 4) or if it was his plan all along, but Bill Walton claimed Karl was hiding him from Jordan.

In game 6 Payton played 47 minutes and Jordan missed 14 of his 19 shots, finishing with a career Finals low 22 points.  He never was held to under 30 points more than twice in a Finals series again, which the Sonics did 5 times (out of 6 games).

[mgent]

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

That's basically my point.  I don't think the Bulls' offense is good enough to go up against teams 4-on-5, which is essentially what they'd be doing with Rodman (especially if Rodman is out on the perimeter as a SF).  Having a guy like Pippen or Lebron or Bird or whoever else roam and help on the Bulls' other four players is going to hurt.

For instance, look at the Bulls against Portland:

Moncrief can adequately defend West
Robinson can adequately defend Walton
Webber can adequately defend Reed

The one mismatch would seem to be Magic against Tiny.  However, with Rodman chilling on the perimeter, Bird is free to help on Magic, mitigating the Bulls perceived advantage. 

Inserting Rodman into the starting lineup means that your starting small forward will be outscored by 15 points every night, and opposing teams will be able to limit your other four starters because they'll be using five defenders to do so.

Agree about Rodman, but wouldn't Moncrief on Magic and Tiny on West make more sense?

[nickagneta]

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

I think Jerry West can defend the point but I am not wild about Chicago's wing defense with Magic + Durant. I think they are going to be vulnerable there.

When Dennis Rodman enters the game, he'll shore up that weakness some.

You may have missed the team profile area where I discussed how I was using my SFs:

I am with you on Dave Debusschere defending both forward positions at a high level.

Not convinced he or Magic can defend talented quick guards (PGs or SGs) at an above average level though. J.West can only cover one of those positions at a time. I think you'll have to give something up there defensively (not to say that your lineup overall necessarily gets outplayed).

-----------------------------------------

Dennis Rodman can defend those quicker guards though.

However, I do have concerns with Rodman when matched against elite team defenders. I am worried about his offensive limitations when matched up against an elite help defender on the opposite team. Someone like Scottie Pippen.

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

Against non-elite team defenders, I have no qualms about playing Rodman at small forward.

Still have an issue (defensively) with Magic with Rodman on the court since most teams have quality offensive players at all three perimeter positions. He is going to be tough to hide defensively. Although, of course, Magic adds more than enough elsewhere to make up for his limitations.

I agree with everything you said here which is why I left the small forward position in flux. Rodman would start and play most of the minutes versus the super elite play making SF's in the league. Against elite defender types it is more than likely that Durant gets the start and DeBusschere backs him up directly. Against other SFs it would be DeBusschere starting with Durant or Rodman coming in depending on the game situation and matchups. I think it the best way to maximize the total team performance when matching up against the SFs in this league due to the elite performance levels that different starting SFs here can provide against the Bulls.

Magic's defense I have to live with due to everything else he brings to the table but I believe that lineups that have Walton, Reed, Camby, Rodman, DeBusschere, West and DJ will more than make up for any shortcomings that Magic presents.

[Roy H.]

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

That's basically my point.  I don't think the Bulls' offense is good enough to go up against teams 4-on-5, which is essentially what they'd be doing with Rodman (especially if Rodman is out on the perimeter as a SF).  Having a guy like Pippen or Lebron or Bird or whoever else roam and help on the Bulls' other four players is going to hurt.

For instance, look at the Bulls against Portland:

Moncrief can adequately defend West
Robinson can adequately defend Walton
Webber can adequately defend Reed

The one mismatch would seem to be Magic against Tiny.  However, with Rodman chilling on the perimeter, Bird is free to help on Magic, mitigating the Bulls perceived advantage. 

Inserting Rodman into the starting lineup means that your starting small forward will be outscored by 15 points every night, and opposing teams will be able to limit your other four starters because they'll be using five defenders to do so.

Agree about Rodman, but wouldn't Moncrief on Magic and Tiny on West make more sense?

Yeah, I'm not sure how Redz would do it.  Since West is a more explosive scorer, I'd tend to put Moncrief on him, but yeah, Tiny's quickness might give West some problem's, while Moncrief could at least limit Magic.