2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[indeedproceed]

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

Scottie would not be the primary scorer, Hakeem would be. Reggie had the midrange jumper and an ability to slash to the hole. Jason Kidd also helps everyone offensively by getting them the ball where they need it, an advantage neither Reggie or Scottie had in their playing days.  Also, whatever we might lack in half-court offensive firepower we more than make up for in our ability to force turnovers and bad shots and score quickly in transition. Reggie's defense is essential to that.

I meant primary scorer on the wing. I even thought to myself "remember to say on the perimeter".

[mgent]

I wanna point out again that Paul isn't exactly an incredibly unselfish PG, at least not compared to someone like Rondo (which someone tried to do last week or so).  He runs the pick and roll, and when the double team comes like it often does on a weak team like the Hornets, he hits an open David West rolling to the basket.  I wouldn't compare him to an always unselfish PG like Rondo who runs an incredibly intricate offense like the Celtics'.  Especially considering that the second the double team doesn't come (which it won't on a team with LeBron, Pierce, and Malone) he typically pulls the jumper.

To tack onto this one of the reasons I was considering taking rondo in this game is exactly because of how he runs the offense.  In this game you have incredible talents coming together and because of they they must take on lesser roles.

 The big three prior to coming together were putting up between 17-20 shots per game.  

In 07-08 Ray, paul, and KG all averaged between 13.5 and 13.9 ppg .  Rondo was able to keep them happy, and balance the offense, something that will be crucial to a teams success in this excercize.

Instead you picked Rose?  

I give you props on the D-Will pick.  I said several years ago that he was gonna pass CP3 and stay ahead of him as the better PG of the future.  I think he absolutely did that when CP3 got hurt, and I still consider him the best PG in the league, despite CP3 returning to his pre-injury form.

He's the better shooter, that's what it really comes down to.  That's why I would've also rather seen him beside LeBron than Paul.  The other huge thing is his size.  I'm taking the taller, stronger PG with roughly the same skill-set every time, and not just for defensive and post-up reasons.  I think when they start older Deron will continue to expand the gap between them.  Chris Paul is just way too reliant on his speed, he'll be nothing without it.  (This also makes speed-reducing injuries a concern for him).

That plus the shooting makes Williams the best PG in my book (and a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better SG which would have made him ideal at playing off the ball with LeBron while taking over the offense when James sits down, Paul could never play SG).

Deron Williams is no where near the defender Chris Paul is.  It isn't close.  

Career 3PT%, Deron Williams 35.5%, Chris Paul 35.9%.  

Rebounding, Paul by a wide margin.

Assists, Paul by a wide margin.  

Steals, Paul and they aren't even in the same stratosphere.

Turnovers, Paul is better.

Fouls, Paul is better.

Even the USG% is nearly identical so it isn't like Paul is a giant ball hog as compared to Williams.

I will give you Deron is bigger, but he is also much slower and isn't nearly as good.  There is no contest in who the better PG by virtually any measure it is Chris Paul and it isn't close.

I think Deron takes a few more 3s and is a better mid-range shooter.  I'd also like to know your definition of a wide margin.

Obviously right now you could argue either way, it's too close, although I can't see the argument that Williams isn't a more versatile player.  But I'm betting at the end of their careers Deron will have been the better player and for longer.

[indeedproceed]

Phoenix:

Explain to me how Grant Hill or Chris Webber would’ve helped your squad. (kidding)

I wonder here though a little about Marion’s usefulness. I know we’ve talked the Matrix to just about exhaustion, and I’ve been one of his bigger supporters…but in 05-06 Marion played the majority of his minutes at the PF.  He was effective there because he was quicker and as long as PF’s and that ability allowed him to get to rebounds, loose balls, and shots he could not have blocked as a traditional PF. Explain to me how he’s better used as a SF here, and why that wasted speed advantage is not going to hurt your team.

Indiana will answer on Phoenix's behalf.

In 05-06 a very efficient MATRIX played a great deal of small forward as the team started Boris Diaw at the 4 and Kurt Thomas (later in the playoffs, brother Tim) at the center.

The speed advantage isn't 'wasted' here as the team still is starting young, athletic Charles Barkley at the power forward

If you have any doubt that the summer draft leaves impressions, me pulling PHO out there is proof it does.

But you sir are incorrect.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506PHO2.HTM

The frontlines were Marion/Diaw, or Marion/Thomas, much more often than they were Marion/Diaw/Thomas, and even than, while listing Diaw as a SF is ridiculous based on his size, Marion sure played like a 4, and was usually defended by 4's due to his lack of outside shooting.

[Donoghus]

I have also been thinking about Who's suggestion of starting Manu and having Gervin off the bench as 6th man.

It was Roy's idea. He deserves the credit for the idea.

I just seconded it.

Dallas was a team that used its greatest players in its starting lineup, but I thought that Manu might actually be a better starter, since he's more of a facilitator than Gervin ever was. 

I would third that move.  From a running the offense standpoint, I think Manu is a better fit since he is pretty exceptional in regards to moving without the ball while Gervin was a notrious ballhawk.

[KCattheStripe]

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

Scottie would not be the primary scorer, Hakeem would be. Reggie had the midrange jumper and an ability to slash to the hole. Jason Kidd also helps everyone offensively by getting them the ball where they need it, an advantage neither Reggie or Scottie had in their playing days.  Also, whatever we might lack in half-court offensive firepower we more than make up for in our ability to force turnovers and bad shots and score quickly in transition. Reggie's defense is essential to that.

I meant primary scorer on the wing. I even thought to myself "remember to say on the perimeter".

I think that's less of a problem when you have Hakeem on the blocks, but even so as the primary scorer he led a team to 55 wins. I think he'll be fine as the best wing scorer in the starting line up and the starter's second best scorer.

[indeedproceed]

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

Scottie would not be the primary scorer, Hakeem would be. Reggie had the midrange jumper and an ability to slash to the hole. Jason Kidd also helps everyone offensively by getting them the ball where they need it, an advantage neither Reggie or Scottie had in their playing days.  Also, whatever we might lack in half-court offensive firepower we more than make up for in our ability to force turnovers and bad shots and score quickly in transition. Reggie's defense is essential to that.

I meant primary scorer on the wing. I even thought to myself "remember to say on the perimeter".

I think that's less of a problem when you have Hakeem on the blocks, but even so as the primary scorer he led a team to 55 wins. I think he'll be fine as the best wing scorer in the starting line up and the starter's second best scorer.

After looking at Philly's lineup again, Scottie was a lot less of a reach than I think people gave you credit for. Scottie couldn't have run the show for anyone, but he complements just about everyone as long as they aren't another SF. I don't think there is a team outside maybe of Redz's that would have a problem justifying Pippen as a 2nd round pick...finally seeing how these teams fit together.

[mgent]

IP, my goal is to play the entire season avoiding a half-court set.  

[Moranis]

I wanna point out again that Paul isn't exactly an incredibly unselfish PG, at least not compared to someone like Rondo (which someone tried to do last week or so).  He runs the pick and roll, and when the double team comes like it often does on a weak team like the Hornets, he hits an open David West rolling to the basket.  I wouldn't compare him to an always unselfish PG like Rondo who runs an incredibly intricate offense like the Celtics'.  Especially considering that the second the double team doesn't come (which it won't on a team with LeBron, Pierce, and Malone) he typically pulls the jumper.

To tack onto this one of the reasons I was considering taking rondo in this game is exactly because of how he runs the offense.  In this game you have incredible talents coming together and because of they they must take on lesser roles.

 The big three prior to coming together were putting up between 17-20 shots per game.  

In 07-08 Ray, paul, and KG all averaged between 13.5 and 13.9 ppg .  Rondo was able to keep them happy, and balance the offense, something that will be crucial to a teams success in this excercize.

Instead you picked Rose?  

I give you props on the D-Will pick.  I said several years ago that he was gonna pass CP3 and stay ahead of him as the better PG of the future.  I think he absolutely did that when CP3 got hurt, and I still consider him the best PG in the league, despite CP3 returning to his pre-injury form.

He's the better shooter, that's what it really comes down to.  That's why I would've also rather seen him beside LeBron than Paul.  The other huge thing is his size.  I'm taking the taller, stronger PG with roughly the same skill-set every time, and not just for defensive and post-up reasons.  I think when they start older Deron will continue to expand the gap between them.  Chris Paul is just way too reliant on his speed, he'll be nothing without it.  (This also makes speed-reducing injuries a concern for him).

That plus the shooting makes Williams the best PG in my book (and a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better SG which would have made him ideal at playing off the ball with LeBron while taking over the offense when James sits down, Paul could never play SG).

Deron Williams is no where near the defender Chris Paul is.  It isn't close.  

Career 3PT%, Deron Williams 35.5%, Chris Paul 35.9%.  

Rebounding, Paul by a wide margin.

Assists, Paul by a wide margin.  

Steals, Paul and they aren't even in the same stratosphere.

Turnovers, Paul is better.

Fouls, Paul is better.

Even the USG% is nearly identical so it isn't like Paul is a giant ball hog as compared to Williams.

I will give you Deron is bigger, but he is also much slower and isn't nearly as good.  There is no contest in who the better PG by virtually any measure it is Chris Paul and it isn't close.

I think Deron takes a few more 3s and is a better mid-range shooter.  I'd also like to know your definition of a wide margin.

Obviously right now you could argue either way, it's too close, although I can't see the argument that Williams isn't a more versatile player.  But I'm betting at the end of their careers Deron will have been the better player and for longer.

So because Deron shoots more threes (.8 per game more over their careers), but hits them at a lesser rate that makes him a better shooter.  You were wrong, just admit it and move on.  Paul is a better 3 Point shooter then Deron.

Rebounding career 4.6 to 3.2.  The TRB% (rebound rates) are 7.4 to 5.5.  That is a wide margin.

Assists career 9.9 to 9.2.  AST% 46.6 to 42.2.  Perhaps wide margin was a bit of an exaggeration, but Paul is still better.


It isn't close right now.  Paul is significantly better then Williams in virtually every measurable category both offensively and defensively.  Not only does Paul have better totals, he is more efficient in virtually every measurable category as well.  

[KCattheStripe]

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

Scottie would not be the primary scorer, Hakeem would be. Reggie had the midrange jumper and an ability to slash to the hole. Jason Kidd also helps everyone offensively by getting them the ball where they need it, an advantage neither Reggie or Scottie had in their playing days.  Also, whatever we might lack in half-court offensive firepower we more than make up for in our ability to force turnovers and bad shots and score quickly in transition. Reggie's defense is essential to that.

I meant primary scorer on the wing. I even thought to myself "remember to say on the perimeter".

I think that's less of a problem when you have Hakeem on the blocks, but even so as the primary scorer he led a team to 55 wins. I think he'll be fine as the best wing scorer in the starting line up and the starter's second best scorer.

After looking at Philly's lineup again, Scottie was a lot less of a reach than I think people gave you credit for. Scottie couldn't have run the show for anyone, but he complements just about everyone as long as they aren't another SF. I don't think there is a team outside maybe of Redz's that would have a problem justifying Pippen as a 2nd round pick...finally seeing how these teams fit together.

YEah, I think especially if you designed a team like mine Scottie wasn't a reach at all.

[Rondo2287]

I wanna point out again that Paul isn't exactly an incredibly unselfish PG, at least not compared to someone like Rondo (which someone tried to do last week or so).  He runs the pick and roll, and when the double team comes like it often does on a weak team like the Hornets, he hits an open David West rolling to the basket.  I wouldn't compare him to an always unselfish PG like Rondo who runs an incredibly intricate offense like the Celtics'.  Especially considering that the second the double team doesn't come (which it won't on a team with LeBron, Pierce, and Malone) he typically pulls the jumper.

To tack onto this one of the reasons I was considering taking rondo in this game is exactly because of how he runs the offense.  In this game you have incredible talents coming together and because of they they must take on lesser roles.

 The big three prior to coming together were putting up between 17-20 shots per game.  

In 07-08 Ray, paul, and KG all averaged between 13.5 and 13.9 ppg .  Rondo was able to keep them happy, and balance the offense, something that will be crucial to a teams success in this excercize.

Instead you picked Rose?  

I give you props on the D-Will pick.  I said several years ago that he was gonna pass CP3 and stay ahead of him as the better PG of the future.  I think he absolutely did that when CP3 got hurt, and I still consider him the best PG in the league, despite CP3 returning to his pre-injury form.

He's the better shooter, that's what it really comes down to.  That's why I would've also rather seen him beside LeBron than Paul.  The other huge thing is his size.  I'm taking the taller, stronger PG with roughly the same skill-set every time, and not just for defensive and post-up reasons.  I think when they start older Deron will continue to expand the gap between them.  Chris Paul is just way too reliant on his speed, he'll be nothing without it.  (This also makes speed-reducing injuries a concern for him).

That plus the shooting makes Williams the best PG in my book (and a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better SG which would have made him ideal at playing off the ball with LeBron while taking over the offense when James sits down, Paul could never play SG).

Deron Williams is no where near the defender Chris Paul is.  It isn't close.  

Career 3PT%, Deron Williams 35.5%, Chris Paul 35.9%.  

Rebounding, Paul by a wide margin.

Assists, Paul by a wide margin.  

Steals, Paul and they aren't even in the same stratosphere.

Turnovers, Paul is better.

Fouls, Paul is better.

Even the USG% is nearly identical so it isn't like Paul is a giant ball hog as compared to Williams.

I will give you Deron is bigger, but he is also much slower and isn't nearly as good.  There is no contest in who the better PG by virtually any measure it is Chris Paul and it isn't close.

I think Deron takes a few more 3s and is a better mid-range shooter.  I'd also like to know your definition of a wide margin.

Obviously right now you could argue either way, it's too close, although I can't see the argument that Williams isn't a more versatile player.  But I'm betting at the end of their careers Deron will have been the better player and for longer.

So because Deron shoots more threes (.8 per game more over their careers), but hits them at a lesser rate that makes him a better shooter.  You were wrong, just admit it and move on.  Paul is a better 3 Point shooter then Deron.

Rebounding career 4.6 to 3.2.  The TRB% (rebound rates) are 7.4 to 5.5.  That is a wide margin.

Assists career 9.9 to 9.2.  AST% 46.6 to 42.2.  Perhaps wide margin was a bit of an exaggeration, but Paul is still better.


It isn't close right now.  Paul is significantly better then Williams in virtually every measurable category both offensively and defensively.  Not only does Paul have better totals, he is more efficient in virtually every measurable category as well.  

[StartOrien]

Phoenix:

Explain to me how Grant Hill or Chris Webber would’ve helped your squad. (kidding)

I wonder here though a little about Marion’s usefulness. I know we’ve talked the Matrix to just about exhaustion, and I’ve been one of his bigger supporters…but in 05-06 Marion played the majority of his minutes at the PF.  He was effective there because he was quicker and as long as PF’s and that ability allowed him to get to rebounds, loose balls, and shots he could not have blocked as a traditional PF. Explain to me how he’s better used as a SF here, and why that wasted speed advantage is not going to hurt your team.

Indiana will answer on Phoenix's behalf.

In 05-06 a very efficient MATRIX played a great deal of small forward as the team started Boris Diaw at the 4 and Kurt Thomas (later in the playoffs, brother Tim) at the center.

The speed advantage isn't 'wasted' here as the team still is starting young, athletic Charles Barkley at the power forward

If you have any doubt that the summer draft leaves impressions, me pulling PHO out there is proof it does.

But you sir are incorrect.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506PHO2.HTM

The frontlines were Marion/Diaw, or Marion/Thomas, much more often than they were Marion/Diaw/Thomas, and even than, while listing Diaw as a SF is ridiculous based on his size, Marion sure played like a 4, and was usually defended by 4's due to his lack of outside shooting.

MATRIX shot an un-amazing, though respectable .331 from downtown on 4.5 attempts that year, so its not as if his shooting was abysmal. But you're right, I'm wrong, he was clearly the PF-y guy that season.

Throughout his career, MATRIX is shown he is capable of scoring well at both the 3 and the 4. While the 21.8 and .525 shooting were his career bests, it wasn't as if they were aberrations.  He was (and now is again for some reason) a pretty talented scorer. While mismatches certainly worked to his benefit often, he's got enough of a body of work to show he's capable of playing the 3 at a high level.

[mgent]

I never said he was a better 3pt shooter, I said he was a better shooter.

And are you really acting like .004 is a victory?  I mean call 3pt shooting a wash but don't act like .004 is really better, especially when he's shooting almost 1/3 less 3s.

[StartOrien]

I posted this on my profile, but how had I not seen this play before last night? This is LATRIX so I'm not showing it to hype up my team, I was just amazed by how good of a bounce pass that was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cporxUZxqNA

[Who]

Shawn Marion is a much better offensive player as a power forward.

He is a much tougher matchup at that position due to his elite small forward type explosive athleticism + the perimeter skills (jump-shooting, ball-handling, slashing) that were fairly mediocre for a SF where well above average for the PF position.  

Shawn Marion's scoring totals are pretty good at SF but his scoring efficiency was also mediocre to below average. In that 51-54% true shooting percentage range.

In this fantasy game, Shawn Marion, the small forward, should always be the fourth or fifth option. In starters minutes, a 12-14ppg type scorer mainly of hustle baskets (transition, offensive rebounds, drive and kicks/dumps, cuts to the rim + the odd one-on-one drive here and there). That is fine, his main value is his elite level defense + rebounding at the SF position.

Edit: Marion had the elite athleticism to be a top scorer at the SF position but he lacked the skill-level. Too average skill-wise, offensively, relative to the position. Why he wasn't a high quality scorer.

[Donoghus]

Shawn Marion is a much better offensive player as a power forward.

He is a much tougher matchup at that position due to his elite small forward type explosive athleticism + the perimeter skills (jump-shooting, ball-handling, slashing) that were fairly mediocre for a SF where well above average for the PF position. 

Shawn Marion's scoring totals are pretty good at SF but his scoring efficiency was also mediocre to below average. In that 51-54% true shooting percentage range.

In this fantasy game, Shawn Marion, the small forward, should always be the fourth or fifth option. In starters minutes, a 12-14ppg type scorer mainly of hustle baskets (transition, offensive rebounds, drive and kicks/dumps, cuts to the rim + the odd one-on-one drive here and there). That is fine, his main value is his elite level defense + rebounding at the SF position.

He belongs at the SF (as a backup) in this game.

Given the talent at the PF position here, he'd get killed.