2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Who]

I haven't really compared teams to one another yet but I would have expected Chicago to be one of the best offensive teams in this fantasy league.

Magic Johnson was one of the most influential offensive players of All-Time with his exceptional passing ability and highly efficient scoring. He was the leading scorer on a Championship team and the second leading scorer on two more title winning sides. 

Jerry West and Kevin Durant gives the team two 30ppg scorers on the wings and two of the most beautiful jump shooters around. Jerry West was the second leading scorer on a title winning side and the leading scorer on a team that made the Finals on several occasions while playing alongside one of the game's great scorers at the time in Elgin Baylor. West was also a terrific passer + generally regarded as one of the most clutch players to ever play the game.

Bill Walton was the second best scorer on a title winning team + arguably the best passing center to ever play the game. Then Willis Reed as the fifth option in the starting lineup, a solid scorer himself. Also led the Knicks in scoring for their 1970 Championship.

[Moranis]

After giving a tongue-bath to the Lakers, let me ask LA a question:

You've continuously pointed out that 'defense wins championship,' is there any concern that you might not have enough offense?

being someone who has the same philosophy I think it fair to say that great defense, truly great team defense, creates its own offense.

Its easy to look at these stats and figure that's about what those players will do but put those same players against elite defensive teams and things change, sometimes drastically.

Turnovers, defensive rebounding lead to extra possessions and more points, many times easy points. I think that gets lost in these things.

Look at the 2008 Celtics.Not outstanding offense but their defense could create offense and dictate a game and limit other teams that had an offensive philosophy, sometime dominating them because of that defense and transition offense caused by it.

I would have grave concerns that your elite defense won't have anywhere near the impact you think it will playing against elite offenses.  Defense win championships, but when you are playing teams with much better offenses and still having an elite defense, I don't think your slight defensive edge is going to be enough.

[Who]

I never said he was a better 3pt shooter, I said he was a better shooter.

And are you really acting like .004 is a victory?  I mean call 3pt shooting a wash but don't act like .004 is really better, especially when he's shooting almost 1/3 less 3s.

well Paul is the better foul shooter as well and since you don't think .004 is worth anything then the .003 they are separated from 2 point land doesn't mean anything either. 

Acting like Williams is so much a better shooter (like you were doing) isn't borne in reality and that frankly is the only area they are even close.  Paul is significantly better in every other aspect of basketball.  Unless of course defense, rebounding, and passing don't matter.

I don't think I was acting like he was SO much of a better shooter, he was when they entered the league but Paul has improved.  I said he was a better shooter, that's it, and I still think that's true as he relies more on the mid-range whereas Paul prefers to get into the paint.  I also don't think more 3 pointers made at a similar percentage is indicative of a worse 3pt shooter, it's pretty much a wash.

I said at the moment it could go either way all right?  If your opinion is Paul is better, that's fine with me, you're not the only one.  I think by the end of their careers, Williams will be considered better, and he will play at his top level longer than Paul will.  It's just speculation on my part.

To say that it's not even close and that Paul is clearly and significantly better in every aspect isn't a fair evaluation, and I don't think you'll find a lot of people that would agree with that.

well I didn't see anyone else mentioning Williams as the best PG since Stockton, yet quite a few thought Paul was.  I think you are the only person on this blog that thinks Williams and Paul are even close.

It's a pretty hot debate, the Deron Williams vs Chris Paul argument.

Lots of divided opinion about which player is better.

--------------------------------------------------

Personally, I think Deron Williams is better and have thought so since the end of the first month of their second seasons.

I have considered Deron Williams the best PG in the NBA since that time (end of first month of his second season) although his seat has come under question this season. 

[Who]

Not sure I'd consider Chicago a top defensive team.

I expect they'll rank as an elite rebounding team (at first glance, Chicago + Denver look best rebounding teams) + a top offensive team.

Not too sure where they will rank defensively yet. A lot of other teams out there with strong claims to their own defensive talent.

[GreenFaith1819]

After giving a tongue-bath to the Lakers, let me ask LA a question:

You've continuously pointed out that 'defense wins championship,' is there any concern that you might not have enough offense?

being someone who has the same philosophy I think it fair to say that great defense, truly great team defense, creates its own offense.

Its easy to look at these stats and figure that's about what those players will do but put those same players against elite defensive teams and things change, sometimes drastically.

Turnovers, defensive rebounding lead to extra possessions and more points, many times easy points. I think that gets lost in these things.

Look at the 2008 Celtics.Not outstanding offense but their defense could create offense and dictate a game and limit other teams that had an offensive philosophy, sometime dominating them because of that defense and transition offense caused by it.

I would have grave concerns that your elite defense won't have anywhere near the impact you think it will playing against elite offenses.  Defense win championships, but when you are playing teams with much better offenses and still having an elite defense, I don't think your slight defensive edge is going to be enough.

I think any time you have the ability to make a team shoot 5-10% FG% less than normal, that puts you in a better position to win.

Look at the 07-08 Lakers...Boston had a great team, no doubt, but LA had the prettiest looking offense, with Kobe, Lamar and Gasol.

Boston beat them in 6 games.

And in this draft format, IMO, say in a match between Rodman and Lebron, Rodman takes Lebron out of the picture somewhat...doesn't stop him, no one can...but limits his output.

I think Rodman (or Prime KG) and maybe a few other defenders on here would do that to Lebron.

And in KG limiting Lebron, he would still be able to get his offense...Prime KG was that good.

That's why I love my team as is...Moses (or Shaq) could limit Kareem somewhat, but then our team isn't dependent on just Kareem scoring 30 pts a night.

My offense was not geared around one or two offensively-gifted players, but 7 or 8 very capable ones who also excelled defensively.

[Redz]

I think Rodman limitations makes him very vulnerable against a guy like that when standing 17+ feet away from the rim ... because Pippen is just going to completely ignore Rodman, play 10+ feet off of him when he doesn't have the ball and play a free safety against all your other offensive players. Doing quite a bit of damage to your offense.

In those situations, against elite team / help defenders, I think it's debatable as to whether Dennis Rodman is adding enough with his defense / rebounding to make up for what he is costing you offensively.

That's basically my point.  I don't think the Bulls' offense is good enough to go up against teams 4-on-5, which is essentially what they'd be doing with Rodman (especially if Rodman is out on the perimeter as a SF).  Having a guy like Pippen or Lebron or Bird or whoever else roam and help on the Bulls' other four players is going to hurt.

For instance, look at the Bulls against Portland:

Moncrief can adequately defend West
Robinson can adequately defend Walton
Webber can adequately defend Reed

The one mismatch would seem to be Magic against Tiny.  However, with Rodman chilling on the perimeter, Bird is free to help on Magic, mitigating the Bulls perceived advantage.  

Inserting Rodman into the starting lineup means that your starting small forward will be outscored by 15 points every night, and opposing teams will be able to limit your other four starters because they'll be using five defenders to do so.

Agree about Rodman, but wouldn't Moncrief on Magic and Tiny on West make more sense?

Yeah, I'm not sure how Redz would do it.  Since West is a more explosive scorer, I'd tend to put Moncrief on him, but yeah, Tiny's quickness might give West some problem's, while Moncrief could at least limit Magic.

That's what I have this guy for...

Way to avoid the question Redz....I approve wholeheartedly

I further deflect all answers regarding game strategy to this guy:



You can send all questions to his email address:

Pat@about-2-win-another-ring-only-this-time-as-a-team-president-instead-of-as-a-player-or-coach.com

I guess if was going for a more subtle deflection I could have opted for less plaid.  

But seriously...How do even answer a question like that?  It's like a super hero argument.  You like who you like.

Butttttttttttttttt...Since there are some 50-odd pages of answers to those very kinds of questions, I'll take a stab at it (lest I rely solely on Tommy's infinite wisdom).

I think I'd stick Moncrief on West and let Tiny do his best with Magic. It's almost easier to try to defend Magic's receivers than to try and stop him from his passing wizardry.  Try to make Magic shoot the rock.  This method worked to some degree early in his career, unfortunately Magic learned how to shoot the ball a bit.  So really, what are you supposed to do?

HE'S MAGIC FLIPPIN JOHNSON WITH JERRY WEST ON THE WING!!!


Which leads me back to my original deflection (with less plaid)



Show me the way Tommy

[Who]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

There are only three teams that can consider defending Magic with their starting PGs. Boston with W.Frazier, Los Angeles with G.Payton and Seattle with J.Kidd. Even then, I'd much rather have someone with more size, small forward type physique, to stick onto Magic.

And every team outside of those guys needs to put one of their wings on Magic leaving their PG on Jerry West. And nobody with an undersized PG (6-1 or smaller) should feel any bit comfortable at the thought of their little guard having to defend a two guard of Jerry West scoring prowess. Because frankly, pretty much none of them have any real experience guarding an offensive threat like Jerry West.

Edit: Oh sorry, missed Oscar Robertson. Four teams.

[Redz]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

There are only three teams that can consider defending Magic with their starting PGs. Boston with W.Frazier, Los Angeles with G.Payton and Seattle with J.Kidd. Even then, I'd much rather have someone with more size, SF size, to stick onto Magic.

And every team outside of those guys needs to put one of their wings on Magic leaving their PG on Jerry West. And nobody with an undersized PG (6-1 or smaller) should feel any bit comfortable at the thought of their little guard having to defend a two guard of Jerry West scoring prowess. Because frankly, pretty much none of them have any real experience guarding an offensive threat like Jerry West.

Better yet.  Never mind Tommy. I'll just put Who behind the bench  

As long as I don't have to make any decisions I'm ok with it.

[Roy H.]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

He won't if Larry is helping on Magic, though.

[nickagneta]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

There are only three teams that can consider defending Magic with their starting PGs. Boston with W.Frazier, Los Angeles with G.Payton and Seattle with J.Kidd. Even then, I'd much rather have someone with more size, SF size, to stick onto Magic.

And every team outside of those guys needs to put one of their wings on Magic leaving their PG on Jerry West. And nobody with an undersized PG (6-1 or smaller) should feel any bit comfortable at the thought of their little guard having to defend a two guard of Jerry West scoring prowess. Because frankly, pretty much none of them have any real experience guarding an offensive threat like Jerry West.

Better yet.  Never mind Tommy. I'll just put Who behind the bench  

As long as I don't have to make any decisions I'm ok with it.

Dang it. And here I was thinking I would try to hire Who as my asst. coach in charge of CB strategy debates.

[Redz]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

He won't if Larry is helping on Magic, though.

Why don't we just let Larry go one on one to a hundred with Magic and we'll settle the whole thing.

Now come on people, wouldn't you drop this entire exercise to see that?

Hmmm...which begs the best question who win the All Time One-on-One tournament?

(that could be good for another hundred pages alone  )

[nickagneta]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

He won't if Larry is helping on Magic, though.

Why don't we just let Larry go one on one to a hundred with Magic and we'll settle the whole thing.

Now come on people, wouldn't you drop this entire exercise to see that?

Hmmm...which begs the best question who win the All Time One-on-One tournament?

(that could be good for another hundred pages alone  )

In the 80's you could have sold out arenas across the country if Larry and Magic decided to have a best of three, half court game of one on one and toured doing just that during the off season.

I might still pay to see it. Though not nearly as much

[nickagneta]

Imagine an offseason tour of Dirk versus Lebron, one on one, half court setting with a three point line, games of 31. Best of three games.

I would go see it.

[Redz]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

He won't if Larry is helping on Magic, though.

Why don't we just let Larry go one on one to a hundred with Magic and we'll settle the whole thing.

Now come on people, wouldn't you drop this entire exercise to see that?

Hmmm...which begs the best question who win the All Time One-on-One tournament?

(that could be good for another hundred pages alone   )

In the 80's you could have sold out arenas across the country if Larry and Magic decided to have a best of three, half court game of one on one and toured doing just that during the off season.

I might still pay to see it. Though not nearly as much

Although I guess the true beauty of their games would be lost in one on one.

[33-00-32]

You can't stick Nate Archibald on Magic Johnson. He'll kill him in the post.

There are only three teams that can consider defending Magic with their starting PGs. Boston with W.Frazier, Los Angeles with G.Payton and Seattle with J.Kidd. Even then, I'd much rather have someone with more size, small forward type physique, to stick onto Magic.

And every team outside of those guys needs to put one of their wings on Magic leaving their PG on Jerry West. And nobody with an undersized PG (6-1 or smaller) should feel any bit comfortable at the thought of their little guard having to defend a two guard of Jerry West scoring prowess. Because frankly, pretty much none of them have any real experience guarding an offensive threat like Jerry West.

Edit: Oh sorry, missed Oscar Robertson. Four teams.

I don't think the home team is getting enough love. We actually match up against teams like Chicago very well. Magic is a freak at the point so nobody alone is stopping him but with Frazier and Hondo and Vincanity we match up with their size and quickness on both ends. That leaves things in the big guys hands and when we match up Walton and Ewing I see a close battle, give and take, both have size and athletic ability in their given years. So that brings things to Reed versus Duncan (no contest both ends of the floor, total domination by Duncan) and the benches which again I see as pretty even matchup to matchup. So when this plays out I see it coming down to game 7 and Timmy putting things on his shoulders and the Celts bringing in #18.