2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Moranis]

I never said he was a better 3pt shooter, I said he was a better shooter.

And are you really acting like .004 is a victory?  I mean call 3pt shooting a wash but don't act like .004 is really better, especially when he's shooting almost 1/3 less 3s.

well Paul is the better foul shooter as well and since you don't think .004 is worth anything then the .003 they are separated from 2 point land doesn't mean anything either.  

Acting like Williams is so much a better shooter (like you were doing) isn't borne in reality and that frankly is the only area they are even close.  Paul is significantly better in every other aspect of basketball.  Unless of course defense, rebounding, and passing don't matter.

[Redz]

Portlandia:

Larry Bird and all his wiles and shotmaking ability go up against LeBron James and all his raw athleticism. Who wins, and why? I ask this, because I really don’t have much else to say about your team.

Would a simple "derr"  suffice as a response? 

Larry would make Lebron look silly if he wanted to man up on him on D.  He'd welcome drawing him in to feed the Admiral for a dunk.

[Who]

Shawn Marion is a much better offensive player as a power forward.

He is a much tougher matchup at that position due to his elite small forward type explosive athleticism + the perimeter skills (jump-shooting, ball-handling, slashing) that were fairly mediocre for a SF where well above average for the PF position.  

Shawn Marion's scoring totals are pretty good at SF but his scoring efficiency was also mediocre to below average. In that 51-54% true shooting percentage range.

In this fantasy game, Shawn Marion, the small forward, should always be the fourth or fifth option. In starters minutes, a 12-14ppg type scorer mainly of hustle baskets (transition, offensive rebounds, drive and kicks/dumps, cuts to the rim + the odd one-on-one drive here and there). That is fine, his main value is his elite level defense + rebounding at the SF position.

He belongs at the SF (as a backup) in this game.

Given the talent at the PF position here, he'd get killed.  

I don't know, I think Marion could handle the backup PF duties.

Bobby Jones. Dolph Schayes. Paul Silas. Dave DeBusschere. Tom Heinsohn. I think Marion is a fine matchup against those guys.

He'd struggle against Elton Brand / Jermaine O'Neal, Larry Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Blake Griffin and maybe Jerry Lucas (unsure -- how different was J.Lucas at Cincinnati vs NYK?). Spencer Haywood would be tough too but Marion would be a quality defender against a guy like that. Haywood is just more talented.

So 5/12 are fine matchups for Marion. He'd be serviceable but he'd rank towards the bottom end of backup PFs.

[GreenFaith1819]

IP - I strongly believe that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar plays extremely well vs those centers (Shaq, Moses) that you mentioned.

For the record, I've seen in several sites that Kareem weighed as much as 267 pounds. I'm assuming that that was more towards the latter end of his career, but I'm sure by the time he reached the 80s (Moses) or 90's (Shaq) he'd hold his own.

David Robinson? I love the man, but I really believe that Kareem was every bit as agile and athletic as he was - thus Kareem would not be hampered by him.

Kareem would have no issues getting his skyhook off vs Robinson.

Shaq or Moses would admittedly be able to push Kareem out some...keep him from getting to his sweet spot, but even with that Prime Kareem had more moves than just the skyhook...he could also hit the mid-range J.

In any event we have a full arsenal and variety of Bigs to throw at any threat:

Centers with more mass? We'd utilize Jermaine O'Neal or Ben Wallace more. Plus, don't forget we'd have KG on the floor (03-04 version). The fear of weakside blocks while Moses (or Shaq) are trying to gather himself up to shoot or dunk would cause him to shoot 10-15% less for his FG%.

Fear and intimidation. We have too many master thiefs, long arms, physical bodies for ANY Center to have a field day, in this format.

Plus, Ralph Sampson, in some cases, will bother folks with his length. And he would be handful offensively, too.

Just ask Hakeem Olajuwon who was his HUGE help in beating LA in the WCFs in 85-86.

Dream didn't (couldn't) do it by himself.

They didn't call HOU the TWIN Towers for nothing.

In short, Moses and Shaq would not be able to dominate vs our Bigs. They'd get a fair amoount of points, but as constructed we slow any Big Combo down out there.

And specifically for Kareem - he played Wilt Chamberlain to standstills back in the 70's...and I consider Wilt to be a dominant center in this format.

Kareem will be fine.

JO, Big Ben, Ralph, Elton and KG said so.

[Who]

Centers with more mass? We'd utilize Jermaine O'Neal or Ben Wallace more. Plus, don't forget we'd have KG on the floor (03-04 version). The fear of weakside blocks while Moses (or Shaq) are trying to gather himself up to shoot or dunk would cause him to shoot 10-15% less for his FG%.

Power based centers are easier to disrupt with team defense than highly skilled finesse centers.

-----------------------------------------

I would put a lot a length on the perimeter. Pressure guards, try to delay them initiating the offense, contest the entry pass to the post heavily. Try to force the power five to catch the ball with only 10 seconds on the shot clock instead 14-16 seconds. Don't double on the catch, wait for the dribble, then double. Let him kick it out and look for the re-post. By the time the re-post comes, there is only 6 or so seconds on the shot-clock and more often than not the attacking team will come away with a low percentage shot attempt from their offensive possession.

That is how Chicago beat Shaquille O'Neal and they did primarily with Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan and Ron Harper. Longley and Rodman held Shaq up but they were both dead men walking without the Bulls perimeter defenders. It was their ball pressure, man-to-man defense and help defense on the post that stifled Shaq. And it was incredibly effective.

In contrast, Chicago couldn't do a darn thing with Hakeem Olajuwon (a highly skilled finesse center).

For your team, I would move Kevin Garnett to the SF position and put Jermaine O'Neal in at PF. I'd like to have a bigger two guard than Joe Dumars (too easy to pass over -- again, not an elite defender, above average but not elite) so I'd roll with Eddie Jones. Payton at the point. Loads of length and defensive ability.

[GreenFaith1819]

Centers with more mass? We'd utilize Jermaine O'Neal or Ben Wallace more. Plus, don't forget we'd have KG on the floor (03-04 version). The fear of weakside blocks while Moses (or Shaq) are trying to gather himself up to shoot or dunk would cause him to shoot 10-15% less for his FG%.

Power based centers are easier to disrupt with team defense than highly skilled finesse centers.

Exactly.

And as our team is constructed Kareem wouldn't be left out on an island vs ANY center out there.

[GreenFaith1819]

Centers with more mass? We'd utilize Jermaine O'Neal or Ben Wallace more. Plus, don't forget we'd have KG on the floor (03-04 version). The fear of weakside blocks while Moses (or Shaq) are trying to gather himself up to shoot or dunk would cause him to shoot 10-15% less for his FG%.

Power based centers are easier to disrupt with team defense than highly skilled finesse centers.

I would put a lot a length on the perimeter. Pressure guards, try to delay them initiating the offense, contest the entry pass to the post heavily. Try to force the power five to catch the ball with only 10 seconds on the shot clock instead 14-16 seconds. Don't double on the catch, wait for the dribble, then double. Let him kick it out and look for the re-post. By the time the re-post comes, there is only 6 or so seconds on the shot-clock and more often than not the attacking team will come away with a low percentage shot attempt from their offensive possession.

That is how Chicago beat Shaquille O'Neal and they did primarily with Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan and Ron Harper. Longley and Rodman held Shaq up but they were both dead men walking without the Bulls perimeter defenders. It was their ball pressure, man-to-man defense and help defense on the post that stifled Shaq. And it was incredibly effective.

For your team, I would move Kevin Garnett to the SF position and put Jermaine O'Neal in at PF. I'd like to have a bigger two guard than Joe Dumars so I'd roll with Eddie Jones. Payton at the point.

Sorry - din't get your entire quote the 1st time.

And as constructed, our team can do what you stated to Shaq or Moses.

[nickagneta]

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

Regarding Jerry West, I don't see why West couldn't be athletic enough to guard modern 1's and yet strong and tall enough to guard  modern 2's. Why can't he be both? Is Lebron strong, athletic and tall enough to guard PFs and yet guard SG's? Was Michael Cooper strong, athletic and tall enough to guard SFs the size of Larry Bird and yet guard PGs as well? Was Dennis Rodman strong, athletic and tall enough to guard centers as well as PGs? Can Rondo, who is smaller than West was, guard shooting guards and the occasional SF(he did guard Lebron during a Heat/Celtic game this year that turned the game around in Boston's favor)?

West was a 5 time 1st team All-Defense player. Sure, an All-NBA player occasionally gets on a 1st team All-Defense from popularity and a great year but seldom are players on that 1st team 5 straight years and not be exceptional defenders.

The Bulls defensive assignment in the backcourt will vary depending on matchup. West won't strictly defend 1's or 2's but will defend the player that he better matches up with.

[nickagneta]

BTW the last 30-40 pages of this thread are AWESOME!!!!!!

Congrats people this is great stuff. Feels like I've been sitting around at the bar while people talk about who's better in different positions and different eras and what players could do what against whom.

Really awesome dialogue!!!!

[StartOrien]

Looking through the rosters quickly, and excluding my own team - I've got Memphis and Los Angeles in my two top overall spots.

[nickagneta]

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

I think Jerry West can defend the point but I am not wild about Chicago's wing defense with Magic + Durant. I think they are going to be vulnerable there.

When Dennis Rodman enters the game, he'll shore up that weakness some.

You may have missed the team profile area where I discussed how I was using my SFs:

Chicago Bulls - coached by Pat Riley

The Bulls will have four regular starters in:

Bill Walton
Willis Reed
Jerry West
Magic Johnson

and all these players would see upwards of 35 minutes per game on average.

The staring small forward position would remain fluid depending on the team we are playing. For instance, when playing against Lebron or Bird, Dennis Rodman would start and see most of the minutes to mirror those players because the offense for those teams will more than likely flow through those players. Teams with smaller SFs would probably see Dave Debusschere starting and playing minutes with Durant seeing major backup minutes. Teams with exceptional strong SF defenders would probably see Durant or Dantley starting to make them work extra hard.

The bench minutes will be mostly divided between the small forwards being used that day(lots of Rodman, Durant and Debusschere) Dennis Johnson, Pau Gasol, and Marcus Camby with Pete Maravich, Drazen Petrovic, and Adrian Dantley see spot minutes and starts to rest the starters or used in situational come from behind times.

[nickagneta]

I still say all these teams are so close that we probably end up with at least one tie.

The margin that separates these teams is really that small.

[mgent]

I never said he was a better 3pt shooter, I said he was a better shooter.

And are you really acting like .004 is a victory?  I mean call 3pt shooting a wash but don't act like .004 is really better, especially when he's shooting almost 1/3 less 3s.

well Paul is the better foul shooter as well and since you don't think .004 is worth anything then the .003 they are separated from 2 point land doesn't mean anything either.  

Acting like Williams is so much a better shooter (like you were doing) isn't borne in reality and that frankly is the only area they are even close.  Paul is significantly better in every other aspect of basketball.  Unless of course defense, rebounding, and passing don't matter.

I don't think I was acting like he was SO much of a better shooter, he was when they entered the league but Paul has improved.  I said he was a better shooter, that's it, and I still think that's true as he relies more on the mid-range whereas Paul prefers to get into the paint.  I also don't think more 3 pointers made at a similar percentage is indicative of a worse 3pt shooter, it's pretty much a wash.

I said at the moment it could go either way all right?  If your opinion is Paul is better, that's fine with me, you're not the only one.  I think by the end of their careers, Williams will be considered better, and he will play at his top level longer than Paul will.  It's just speculation on my part.

To say that it's not even close and that Paul is clearly and significantly better in every aspect isn't a fair evaluation, and I don't think you'll find a lot of people that would agree with that.

[Donoghus]

I still say all these teams are so close that we probably end up with at least one tie.

The margin that separates these teams is really that small.

I do see a gap somewhere between the top 3 or 4 in my book and the rest.

However, break down those two subsets and its a lot closer.

[nickagneta]

I still say all these teams are so close that we probably end up with at least one tie.

The margin that separates these teams is really that small.

I do see a gap somewhere between the top 3 or 4 in my book and the rest.

However, break down those two subsets and its a lot closer.

For best overall....maybe. Still if the top 4 are so close, it could still be very very interesting.

But what about best defensive or best offensive teams?

I think votes could be all over the place for those awards.