2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Donoghus]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

Thats why I ask. In this format I'd take Kidd, but in a real life situation I'd prefer Paul.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

[Moranis]

I wanna point out again that Paul isn't exactly an incredibly unselfish PG, at least not compared to someone like Rondo (which someone tried to do last week or so).  He runs the pick and roll, and when the double team comes like it often does on a weak team like the Hornets, he hits an open David West rolling to the basket.  I wouldn't compare him to an always unselfish PG like Rondo who runs an incredibly intricate offense like the Celtics'.  Especially considering that the second the double team doesn't come (which it won't on a team with LeBron, Pierce, and Malone) he typically pulls the jumper.

To tack onto this one of the reasons I was considering taking rondo in this game is exactly because of how he runs the offense.  In this game you have incredible talents coming together and because of they they must take on lesser roles.

 The big three prior to coming together were putting up between 17-20 shots per game.  

In 07-08 Ray, paul, and KG all averaged between 13.5 and 13.9 ppg .  Rondo was able to keep them happy, and balance the offense, something that will be crucial to a teams success in this excercize.

Instead you picked Rose?  

I give you props on the D-Will pick.  I said several years ago that he was gonna pass CP3 and stay ahead of him as the better PG of the future.  I think he absolutely did that when CP3 got hurt, and I still consider him the best PG in the league, despite CP3 returning to his pre-injury form.

He's the better shooter, that's what it really comes down to.  That's why I would've also rather seen him beside LeBron than Paul.  The other huge thing is his size.  I'm taking the taller, stronger PG with roughly the same skill-set every time, and not just for defensive and post-up reasons.  I think when they start older Deron will continue to expand the gap between them.  Chris Paul is just way too reliant on his speed, he'll be nothing without it.  (This also makes speed-reducing injuries a concern for him).

That plus the shooting makes Williams the best PG in my book (and a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better SG which would have made him ideal at playing off the ball with LeBron while taking over the offense when James sits down, Paul could never play SG).

Deron Williams is no where near the defender Chris Paul is.  It isn't close.  

Career 3PT%, Deron Williams 35.5%, Chris Paul 35.9%.  

Rebounding, Paul by a wide margin.

Assists, Paul by a wide margin.  

Steals, Paul and they aren't even in the same stratosphere.

Turnovers, Paul is better.

Fouls, Paul is better.

Even the USG% is nearly identical so it isn't like Paul is a giant ball hog as compared to Williams.

I will give you Deron is bigger, but he is also much slower and isn't nearly as good.  There is no contest in who the better PG by virtually any measure it is Chris Paul and it isn't close.

[Roy H.]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

Thats why I ask. In this format I'd take Kidd, but in a real life situation I'd prefer Paul.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

Yeah, it would depend upon what type of team I had around my PG.  If it was a team full of good players, including stars, then I'd want Kidd.  If it were a team that needed offense from the PG, give me Paul.

[Who]

http://Portland: I like the make up of your team, I think you have a good mesh.  How do you see Yao fairing against other bigs? As a lot of them are more agile and athletic than he is.

I'm really not looking for a lot from Yao.  Maybe 15-20 to keep his brittle bones from crumbling.  With Thurmond to pick up the slack defensively off the pine, I'm really just asking Yao to stick around the perimeter, draw the opponents bigs out of the paint, and hit his shots.  On D...just take up some space, and grab some boards that Thurmond misses.  Alter some shots.  Guard the hoop.

I think you should keep Yao glued to the bench when facing quick opposing centers. Use Nate Thurmond against those backup C's.

Hmm ... no other backup bigs, I would have liked to have seen you pickup a power forward to play a couple of minutes there when you wish to sit Yao down.

--------------------------------------

Oh, you have Larry Bird. Okay, that will work. He can give you some minutes as a backup PF in those situations.

Oooh, keep Tiny on the floor and stick Bernard King + Sam Jones or Andrew Toney at the two. Spread the floor out and let (1) Tiny attack off the dribble (2) Bird take advantage of his perimeter skills and quickness versus backup PF (3) let B.King do his thing.

That would be a fun second unit lineup (when Yao doesn't work for defensive reasons due to a lack of quickness).

Oh, you have Brandon Roy too, he'd work as a creative ball-handling guard too. Can give Tiny some rest. A B.Roy / L.Bird pick and roll would be murder to defend against. Tiny's quickness in a similar pick and roll would also be deadly. Especially with only one big man (N.Thurmond or D.Robinson) on the floor with loads of space for Tiny or Roy to exploit. 

Fun team !!

[KCattheStripe]

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

Scottie would not be the primary scorer, Hakeem would be. Reggie had the midrange jumper and an ability to slash to the hole. Jason Kidd also helps everyone offensively by getting them the ball where they need it, an advantage neither Reggie or Scottie had in their playing days.  Also, whatever we might lack in half-court offensive firepower we more than make up for in our ability to force turnovers and bad shots and score quickly in transition. Reggie's defense is essential to that.

[mgent]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

In what sense, other than spending all his time on defense waiting in the passing lanes.

Distributing?
Rebounding?
Defense?
Shooting?

I thought Jason Kidd was as complete as they come.

In terms of running your offense how do you not take Nash also?  Passing skills aside, I wouldn't underestimate what a career 43% 3pt shooter does to an offense.

[Donoghus]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

Thats why I ask. In this format I'd take Kidd, but in a real life situation I'd prefer Paul.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

Yeah, it would depend upon what type of team I had around my PG.  If it was a team full of good players, including stars, then I'd want Kidd.  If it were a team that needed offense from the PG, give me Paul.

Just for my own taste, if we're doing an all-time draft and given the talent available in a draft like this, unless its for hits & giggles, I don't see the need to build a team that requires a great deal of offense from the PG given the talent pool.

[KCattheStripe]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

Thats why I ask. In this format I'd take Kidd, but in a real life situation I'd prefer Paul.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

Hakeem Olajuwon agrees.

[Rondo2287]

Dallas:

I’m not a fan of all of your players, and you’ve admitted mistakes while drafting, but honestly whether its modern bias or not, I have a hard time imagining any past or present player that could’ve slowed down the 99-00 Shaq. Combined with hyper athletic monsters Amar’e, Baylor, and Rose/Williams, I don’t see many teams on your level athletically. Can you compensate for the holes in your roster with pure athleticism and strength?

IP,I believe we can compensate for our biggest hole, 3pt shooting, with our athleticism.  we have seen with the current Heat's run to the finals that lack  of 3pt shooter can be compensated for with freakishly athletic guys getting to the hoop, and we've got them. And as you mentioned we also have Shaq, and three lockdown defenders on the bench waiting to come in and shut down any other teams go to guys.

I have also been thinking about Who's suggestion of starting Manu and having Gervin off the bench as 6th man.  I think I might try that out and see how it goes since I would still have three prime time scorers in the starting lineup of Pettit, shaq and Baylor and then two good facilitating guards in Manu and Deron, and they are also not terrible 3 pt shooters themselves

[Roy H.]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

In what sense, other than spending all his time on defense waiting in the passing lanes.

Distributing?
Rebounding?
Defense?
Shooting?

I thought Jason Kidd was as complete as they come.

In terms of running your offense how do you not take Nash also?  Passing skills aside, I wouldn't underestimate what a career 43% 3pt shooter does to an offense.

Prime Paul was a better scorer and a better shooter than Prime Kidd was. 

[Who]

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

I think Jerry West can defend the point but I am not wild about Chicago's wing defense with Magic + Durant. I think they are going to be vulnerable there.

When Dennis Rodman enters the game, he'll shore up that weakness some.

[Rondo2287]

Dallas:

I’m not a fan of all of your players, and you’ve admitted mistakes while drafting, but honestly whether its modern bias or not, I have a hard time imagining any past or present player that could’ve slowed down the 99-00 Shaq. Combined with hyper athletic monsters Amar’e, Baylor, and Rose/Williams, I don’t see many teams on your level athletically. Can you compensate for the holes in your roster with pure athleticism and strength?

IP,I believe we can compensate for our biggest hole, 3pt shooting, with our athleticism.  we have seen with the current Heat's run to the finals that lack  of 3pt shooter can be compensated for with freakishly athletic guys getting to the hoop, and we've got them. And as you mentioned we also have Shaq, and three lockdown defenders on the bench waiting to come in and shut down any other teams go to guys.

I have also been thinking about Who's suggestion of starting Manu and having Gervin off the bench as 6th man.  I think I might try that out and see how it goes since I would still have three prime time scorers in the starting lineup of Pettit, shaq and Baylor and then two good facilitating guards in Manu and Deron, and they are also not terrible 3 pt shooters themselves

I also wouldnt understimate the effect a team mascot can have.  We have  this guy,



And the 2004 red sox had this guy

[Who]

Just for my own taste, if we're doing an all-time draft and given the talent available in a draft like this, unless its for hits & giggles, I don't see the need to build a team that requires a great deal of offense from the PG given the talent pool.

I couldn't agree more

[StartOrien]

Phoenix:

Explain to me how Grant Hill or Chris Webber would’ve helped your squad. (kidding)

I wonder here though a little about Marion’s usefulness. I know we’ve talked the Matrix to just about exhaustion, and I’ve been one of his bigger supporters…but in 05-06 Marion played the majority of his minutes at the PF.  He was effective there because he was quicker and as long as PF’s and that ability allowed him to get to rebounds, loose balls, and shots he could not have blocked as a traditional PF. Explain to me how he’s better used as a SF here, and why that wasted speed advantage is not going to hurt your team.

Indiana will answer on Phoenix's behalf.

In 05-06 a very efficient MATRIX played a great deal of small forward as the team started Boris Diaw at the 4 and Kurt Thomas (later in the playoffs, brother Tim) at the center.

The speed advantage isn't 'wasted' here as the team still is starting young, athletic Charles Barkley at the power forward

[Who]

I have also been thinking about Who's suggestion of starting Manu and having Gervin off the bench as 6th man.

It was Roy's idea. He deserves the credit for the idea.

I just seconded it.

Dallas was a team that used its greatest players in its starting lineup, but I thought that Manu might actually be a better starter, since he's more of a facilitator than Gervin ever was.