2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Who]

I really don't get the Chris Paul hate.

In 2008-09, he scored 22.8 points on just 16.1 shots and dished out 11 assists, snagged 5.5 rebounds, and got 2.8 steals all with just 3 turnovers and 2.7 fouls.  His TS% was 59.9 and his eFG% was 52.8, both incredibly high efficiencies for PG's.  That doesn't really smack of self involved ball hog as he is being made out to seem.  Yes, he was the Hornets best player, so yes he had the ball in his hand more then many PG's, but he was incredibly unselfish and efficient and couple that with a 1st team All Defense, and he is what every PG should be.

I don't think its hate as much as its a question of fit. I see Who's point, though I disagree with him, and think if anything - blasphemous as this may be - that Paul Pierce is the odd man out here. I think you might've been better off with a pure shooter.

Yeah, I think that type of combination would fit together a lot more fluidly. A more cohesive grouping.

I would prefer P.Pierce over C.Paul because I consider him the better individual talent. But I know many others consider Paul the greatest PG since Magic Johnson (or John Stockton as previously stated on this page) and would disagree with that assessment (P.Pierce over C.Paul).

-----------------------------------------

Actually, outside of Jerry West, there are not many top shooting SGs who I think would form a better overall group than Memphis' current combination of C.Paul, P.Pierce and LeBron James.

Paul Pierce and Chris Paul are very talented players. I wouldn't be dumping either one of them for a Reggie Miller type just because the fit is a little smoother offensively -- Pierce's defense / rebounding are too good -- It would be a weaker overall unit.

So I think it would be pretty hard to upgrade that way. Their current mix, although a little uncomfortable, is the more effective grouping than replacing P.Pierce with the shooters out there.

However, because LeBron is such a talented ball-handler, passer / playmaker ... I think it is easier to build with a lesser PG in that slot.

[Moranis]

I don't think Chris Paul's style of play is conducive to playing alongside other top talents.

He needs the ball in his hands too often for my taste which in this fantasy setting is an issue + if you take the ball out of his hands, his value drops considerably.

That was exactly where my confusion stemmed from.  Why are you gonna draft a PG that can't play off the ball when LeBron is your PG?

What makes you think Paul can't play off the ball?  I realize he hasn't done it, but that is because he can't do it on his particular team.  I think his skill set more then translates to someone that can play off the ball.  He is an excellent shooter from all parts of the floor.  He is a very strong passer, he is good on the fast break, he is good on the pick and roll, he has a superb court vision and excellent timing.  All of the skills that make him great in those areas, would allow him to play off the ball.   I think far too many people are holding his role on his less then stellar team against him.  You can't look at a players role, you have to look at the skill set when you do this sort of exercise because by and large everyone's role will be different, and it is the skill set that will dictate the success of these sort of teams.

[StartOrien]

I don't think Chris Paul's style of play is conducive to playing alongside other top talents.

He needs the ball in his hands too often for my taste which in this fantasy setting is an issue + if you take the ball out of his hands, his value drops considerably.

That was exactly where my confusion stemmed from.  Why are you gonna draft a PG that can't play off the ball when LeBron is your PG?

What makes you think Paul can't play off the ball?  I realize he hasn't done it, but that is because he can't do it on his particular team.  I think his skill set more then translates to someone that can play off the ball.  He is an excellent shooter from all parts of the floor.  He is a very strong passer, he is good on the fast break, he is good on the pick and roll, he has a superb court vision and excellent timing.  All of the skills that make him great in those areas, would allow him to play off the ball.   I think far too many people are holding his role on his less then stellar team against him.  You can't look at a players role, you have to look at the skill set when you do this sort of exercise because by and large everyone's role will be different, and it is the skill set that will dictate the success of these sort of teams.

I think playing Paul off the ball would be a mistake.

[mgent]

I wanna point out again that Paul isn't exactly an incredibly unselfish PG, at least not compared to someone like Rondo (which someone tried to do last week or so).  He runs the pick and roll, and when the double team comes like it often does on a weak team like the Hornets, he hits an open David West rolling to the basket.  I wouldn't compare him to an always unselfish PG like Rondo who runs an incredibly intricate offense like the Celtics'.  Especially considering that the second the double team doesn't come (which it won't on a team with LeBron, Pierce, and Malone) he typically pulls the jumper.

To tack onto this one of the reasons I was considering taking rondo in this game is exactly because of how he runs the offense.  In this game you have incredible talents coming together and because of they they must take on lesser roles.

 The big three prior to coming together were putting up between 17-20 shots per game.  

In 07-08 Ray, paul, and KG all averaged between 13.5 and 13.9 ppg .  Rondo was able to keep them happy, and balance the offense, something that will be crucial to a teams success in this excercize.

Instead you picked Rose?  

I give you props on the D-Will pick.  I said several years ago that he was gonna pass CP3 and stay ahead of him as the better PG of the future.  I think he absolutely did that when CP3 got hurt, and I still consider him the best PG in the league, despite CP3 returning to his pre-injury form.

He's the better shooter, that's what it really comes down to.  That's why I would've also rather seen him beside LeBron than Paul.  The other huge thing is his size.  I'm taking the taller, stronger PG with roughly the same skill-set every time, and not just for defensive and post-up reasons.  I think when they start older Deron will continue to expand the gap between them.  Chris Paul is just way too reliant on his speed, he'll be nothing without it.  (This also makes speed-reducing injuries a concern for him).

That plus the shooting makes Williams the best PG in my book (and a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better SG which would have made him ideal at playing off the ball with LeBron while taking over the offense when James sits down, Paul could never play SG).

[mgent]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

[indeedproceed]

I don't think Chris Paul's style of play is conducive to playing alongside other top talents.

He needs the ball in his hands too often for my taste which in this fantasy setting is an issue + if you take the ball out of his hands, his value drops considerably.

That was exactly where my confusion stemmed from.  Why are you gonna draft a PG that can't play off the ball when LeBron is your PG?

What makes you think Paul can't play off the ball?  I realize he hasn't done it, but that is because he can't do it on his particular team.  I think his skill set more then translates to someone that can play off the ball.  He is an excellent shooter from all parts of the floor.  He is a very strong passer, he is good on the fast break, he is good on the pick and roll, he has a superb court vision and excellent timing.  All of the skills that make him great in those areas, would allow him to play off the ball.   I think far too many people are holding his role on his less then stellar team against him.  You can't look at a players role, you have to look at the skill set when you do this sort of exercise because by and large everyone's role will be different, and it is the skill set that will dictate the success of these sort of teams.

Say what you want about how role is less important than skillset, but I think there is a pretty extensive list of players who were attempted to be pushed into roles that allegedly complemented their skillsets that in hindsight either backfired or were not successes because their efficiency dropped.

[Redz]

http://Portland: I like the make up of your team, I think you have a good mesh.  How do you see Yao fairing against other bigs? As a lot of them are more agile and athletic than he is.

I'm really not looking for a lot from Yao.  Maybe 15-20 to keep his brittle bones from crumbling.  With Thurmond to pick up the slack defensively off the pine, I'm really just asking Yao to stick around the perimeter, draw the opponents bigs out of the paint, and hit his shots.  On D...just take up some space, and grab some boards that Thurmond misses.  Alter some shots.  Guard the hoop.

[StartOrien]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

For one season of work, absolutely. And if he can stay healthy consistently, yes, he's better than all the above.

[Roy H.]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

[StartOrien]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

[mgent]

http://Portland: I like the make up of your team, I think you have a good mesh.  How do you see Yao fairing against other bigs? As a lot of them are more agile and athletic than he is.

I'm really not looking for a lot from Yao.  Maybe 15-20 to keep his brittle bones from crumbling.  With Thurmond to pick up the slack defensively off the pine, I'm really just asking Yao to stick around the perimeter, draw the opponents bigs out of the paint, and hit his shots.  On D...just take up some space, and grab some boards that Thurmond misses.  Alter some shots.  Guard the hoop.

I don't think you need to defend Yao, especially at the position you got him, just make sure he doesn't leave the couch in-between games.

I like you using Roy at PG.  I was worried he wasn't gonna get enough touches on your team.

[Donoghus]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

[StartOrien]

By the way, how aren't Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash not the best PGs since Stockton?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Chris Paul better than those guys?  Really?

Paul is arguably the most complete PG, but give me Kidd in terms of running my offense.

Are you saying that in this format, or in general?

In this format, I think a master facilitator is what's best for a PG.  So I would tend to agree on Roy's point. 

Thats why I ask. In this format I'd take Kidd, but in a real life situation I'd prefer Paul.

[indeedproceed]

Denver:

Am I reading that right? Your best 3pt shooter is Rasheed Wallace? How are you going to stop guys from packing the lane?

Atlanta:

Well rounded team. I understand the need to get Mount Mutumbo, but are you going to run Phil Jackson’s triangle offense to optimize Kobe’s touches? And if so, how much does Divac play? If you’re not going to run the triangle, compare your teams’ offensive sets to a modern NBA team, so I we could see how you see the pieces of Malone, Stockton, and Bryant fitting together.

Seattle:

I love Reggie, everyone loves Reggie…but was Reggie good enough to start on your team? Scottie Pippen was not an abject failure as a primary scorer while Jordan was out, but he was not really a success either. Reggie never really got a shot to lead a successful team. On top of that, he wasn’t a very reliable shooter from range. He’s number 1 in our hearts, but is he a #1 shooting guard in this game?

 Miami:

If this game were made into 2k rosters, your team is the one I want as my own. None of your guys are really ‘all-time bests’ at anything, every one to a man is a perpetual ‘also-ran’. Wilt always second to Russell, McHale always second to Bird, Rick Barry always second to his prickliness and free throw technique, Mitch Richmond always a second option, McGrady always second, first to Vince Carter, than to Kobe Bryant, and Isaiah Thomas, who is basically the resentful ‘not as good but still good’ little brother of Magic, Bird, and Jordan’s legacies…and yet they all fit together like a cohesive team. Its not really a question, I just like the team.

Portlandia:

Larry Bird and all his wiles and shotmaking ability go up against LeBron James and all his raw athleticism. Who wins, and why? I ask this, because I really don’t have much else to say about your team.

Chicago:

How does the defense work here? Magic guards…2’s? West points? (ha.)

I’ll concede that Jerry West shoots the lights out, no problem. But, I will not concede one of two things: Either Jerry West is athletic enough to guard modern 1’s ala a days of yore Iverson, or he’s tall and strong enough to rebound and guard modern day 2’s, ala a days of yore kid. The real truth is that he was probably not athletic or strong enough to do either, but I don’t think those things should be strictly static, especially with a transcendental talent like West.

Dallas:

I’m not a fan of all of your players, and you’ve admitted mistakes while drafting, but honestly whether its modern bias or not, I have a hard time imagining any past or present player that could’ve slowed down the 99-00 Shaq. Combined with hyper athletic monsters Amar’e, Baylor, and Rose/Williams, I don’t see many teams on your level athletically. Can you compensate for the holes in your roster with pure athleticism and strength?

Lakers:

I’m convinced that I just don’t get Kareem. That’s it. I don’t know how else to explain it, but I just don’t see Kareem as dominating in this setting the way he dominated the league at the times you’re using. I think stronger bigger centers like Shaquille or Moses Malone, or David Robinson would really give him problems. But, if you buy that Kareem is as dominant as the numbers suggest, this is the best frontline in the game. I’ve gone over my issues with this team a few times, so I think we know where I come down there. Here is one question though..Can I get a probable minutes breakdown?

Philadelphia:

I love moving Kevin Johnson to the starting spot, but I still don’t like Nique or Melo next to Jordan. But, with Dirk there to pass and space the floor, this team has incredible potential. Explain to me how the offense works, and compare it to a current or recent NBA team, in the way you see the dynamic playing out.

Phoenix:

Explain to me how Grant Hill or Chris Webber would’ve helped your squad. (kidding)

I wonder here though a little about Marion’s usefulness. I know we’ve talked the Matrix to just about exhaustion, and I’ve been one of his bigger supporters…but in 05-06 Marion played the majority of his minutes at the PF.  He was effective there because he was quicker and as long as PF’s and that ability allowed him to get to rebounds, loose balls, and shots he could not have blocked as a traditional PF. Explain to me how he’s better used as a SF here, and why that wasted speed advantage is not going to hurt your team.

[indeedproceed]

I make em say uhhh. Na na nana.