2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Moranis]

I will say that, by a fairly significant margin, my favorite team is Redz'.  Call that mod bias, call that me sticking up for a friend, call that whatever you want, but I calls it like I see it.

I just think Portland has the best balance of offense, defense, ball-handling, ball movement, individual greatness, diversity of talent, clutch play, and fit.  There are a lot of great teams, but Portland looks the most like a team to me.  

So, my individual awards (not that anybody cares, since I'm no longer a panelist):

1.  Best team: Portland Trailblazers

2.  Best defensive team:  LA Lakers

3.  Best offensive team:  Denver Nuggets

4.  Best passing team: Portland (based upon it's front court starters)

5.  Best starting backcourt:  Chicago Bulls

6.  Best starting big men:  LA Lakers

7.  Most likeable team: Portland Trailblazers (I'm a sucker for Larry)

8.  Quickest team / scariest "small ball" team: Philadelphia 76ers

9.  Most talented team:  Miami Heat

10.  Most athletic team:  Tie:  Denver Nuggets & Dallas Mavericks

11.  Best three-point shooting team:  Indiana Pacers

12.  Most underrated team (including by me):  Atlanta Hawks

13.  Most underrated team that belongs in the top four:  Seattle SuperSonics

14.  Team that I should like, but for whatever reason I don't:  Memphis Grizzlies (it's the Lebron bias, I think)

15.  Team that I love and hate at the same time:  Boston Celtics  (Havlicek?  Tommy?  Duncan?  Love 'em!  Iverson?  Carter?  Hate 'em!)

As for anybody who took offense to these rankings:  sorry, guys.  Other than "best overall" and maybe "best defense", I spent about five minutes total on these superlatives.

I kinda feel like i've got to argue my team for quickest/best scary small ball team.

Oscar Robertson >>>>>> Bob Cousy/Tony Parker/Kevin Johnson

Pearl Monroe > Lenny Wilkens/Jerry Stackhouse/Kevin Johnson/Tony Parker

J Erving < MJ (however i consider Dr J the second best SG/SF ever behind him and Bird).

Glide Drexler > Nique/Melo

Elvin Hayes > Dwight Howard

Rip Hamilton can sub in for some sharpshooting.  At Center, I can also go a lot of different ways.  Jerry Lucas for rebounding, Rasheed for spacing, Parish for defense,   Laimbeer for toughness, or Ron Artest for ultra-quick lineup.

Sorry, but I just don't see it ... Clyde faster and stronger than 'Nique/'Melo? Elvin Hayes faster on the break than Dwight? Don't see that, either. Oscar is the man, and I'll concede that one, but Stack is extremely fast, and averages 10pts/game more than Monroe. To each his own, but speed/ball-handling is not something supported much by stats, and your leader runs the break ... I can't see any team out-breaking the Sixers with MJ running the floor and this quickness/talent around him. This team torches the court, and only has two players who average under 20 PPG ... I think Miami is the only other team with such a claim or shooting prowess to go along with speed.

The Memphis Grizzlies only have 2 players below 20 ppg, Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson.  

Great team, (TP) ... but I was just going by what stats were listed on the team profiles thread, so I meant no slight to your boys, (I don't think every team is listed yet).

Not a problem.  I have gone back and forth on posting the stats, I just don't think it has much relevance as these teams and roles are just so much different then what the players faced in their actual season. 

[33-00-32]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

I'd like to see your team start Vince Carter at the two. I think that is a stronger lineup overall than your current one with Billups in that starting lineup. 

The main reason would be to keep W.Frazier at the point and Hondo at the three. W.Frazier, in particular, who I think his value decreases when used as a two guard instead of a big powerful defensive PG.

Hondo is fine at either wing position but I'd keep him at the SF because I think the starters at that position taper off a bit after the top 6/7 guys and that having a guy as good as Hondo there is a nice advantage for you. Plus, I don't like the idea of A.English or P.Stojakovic starting. Much prefer Vince's game.

I think Vince with his size (6-7, wide shoulders, strong body, incredible explosiveness) is a very tough guy for some SGs to matchup against physically. Add in his very talented skill-set and he is a very nice 4th / 5th best starter for any team.

Thanks Who. I actually thought about VC getting more playing time because that would give me 3 guys to spread the floor with Hondo running around, not many SF can stay with him and not many SG could size up with VC. If their defenders decided to switch it up and have the SF cover Vince and the SG cover Hondo I still think Hondo out runs anyone and now Vince has a speed advantage with more than enough size. I will certainly give it more thought.

[33-00-32]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

I'd like to see your team start Vince Carter at the two. I think that is a stronger lineup overall than your current one with Billups in that starting lineup. 

The main reason would be to keep W.Frazier at the point and Hondo at the three. W.Frazier, in particular, who I think his value decreases when used as a two guard instead of a big powerful defensive PG.

Hondo is fine at either wing position but I'd keep him at the SF because I think the starters at that position taper off a bit after the top 6/7 guys and that having a guy as good as Hondo there is a nice advantage for you. Plus, I don't like the idea of A.English or P.Stojakovic starting. Much prefer Vince's game.

I think Vince with his size (6-7, wide shoulders, strong body, incredible explosiveness) is a very tough guy for some SGs to matchup against physically. Add in his very talented skill-set and he is a very nice 4th / 5th best starter for any team.

I think I have him beat no matter who he starts at the wings and the point. 

I like my chances either way but Who may have a point in a game against your guys I might go with Vince. Walt against CP3 plays great def and limits his options. I think Vince's explosiveness would require PP to need a lot of help and with Hondo's non-stop movement LeBum would never keep up. McAdoo against the greatest PF of all time, not even close. I give you Moses in a close one but not by a lot. Ewing had size, mobility and was a great defender.

[Who]

I've been thinking about for a little while this morning and I cannot warm to the idea of Allen Iverson in this fantasy game setting.

Too selfish, ball-stopper, over-dribbles, turnovers, bad shot selection ... will steal shots away from his teammates + stall the offense with his poor guard play.

A terrific player for a team that needs a dominant go-to guy scorer but I can't rate him highly in this setting. Thus, I wouldn't consider him as a rotation player. I'd put him deeper on the bench.

So, I would like to see Boston use David Thompson as their backup SG behind Vince instead of Iverson. Keep Billups as the backup PG. Use Iverson as the third string PG and Dave Bing as the third string SG.

---------------------------------------

Jerry Stackhouse is another player with similar flaws to Iverson. On that Philadelphia team.

Especially in that season where he led the league in scoring. Unbelievably selfish offensive play that year. So many poor possessions, low percentage shot attempts and dumb mistakes.

Phily don't have many wings. A lot of small PGs. I would have liked to have seen them grab another wing instead of one of those small guards.

Ermm, I would still drop Jerry Stackhouse. I couldn't abide watching him steal shot attempts away from the fantastic scorers on that team. It would drive me insane. Even in the 6-10 minutes a game that Stackhouse would only be playing.

I'd go with 36 minutes for MJ at the two. Then Nique with the other 12 there. 20 minutes at SF for Nique and 28 for Melo. Go with a three man wing rotation. A four man bench rotation with two bigs (D.Schayes + A.Gilmore) and a PG (Cousy).

[33-00-32]

I've been thinking about for a little while this morning and I cannot warm to the idea of Allen Iverson in this fantasy game setting.

Too selfish, ball-stopper, over-dribbles, turnovers, bad shot selection ... will steal shots away from his teammates + stall the offense with his poor guard play.

A terrific player for a team that needs a dominant go-to guy scorer but I can't rate him highly in this setting. Thus, I wouldn't consider him as a rotation player. I'd put him deeper on the bench.

So, I would like to see Boston use David Thompson as their backup SG behind Vince instead of Iverson. Keep Billups as the backup PG. Use Iverson as the third string PG and Dave Bing as the third string SG.

---------------------------------------

Jerry Stackhouse is another player with similar flaws to Iverson. On that Philadelphia team.

Especially in that season where he led the league in scoring. Unbelievably selfish offensive play that year. So many poor possessions, low percentage shot attempts and dumb mistakes.

Phily don't have many wings. A lot of small PGs. I would have liked to have seen them grab another wing instead of one of those small guards.

Ermm, I would still drop Jerry Stackhouse. I couldn't abide watching him steal shot attempts away from the fantastic scorers on that team. It would drive me insane. Even in the 6-10 minutes a game that Stackhouse would only be playing.

I'd go with 36 minutes for MJ at the two. Then Nique with the other 12 there. 20 minutes at SF for Nique and 28 for Melo. Go with a three man wing rotation. A four man bench rotation with two bigs (D.Schayes + A.Gilmore) and a PG (Cousy).

I kind of agree with you on AI. He's the 1 guy I regret and the 1 guy I didn't directly draft. I had to give Roy a list (thanks again Roy) without a lot of thought. My list consisted mostly of SF who could also play SG and then I saw AI was still available and one of only 1 or 2 MVPs left and I threw him on the top of my list not expecting him to make it down to me anyway. Oh well, if he doesn't fit in then he will scream and go away or his GTown Alum chum Ewing, will kick him to the curb.

[Moranis]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

I'd like to see your team start Vince Carter at the two. I think that is a stronger lineup overall than your current one with Billups in that starting lineup. 

The main reason would be to keep W.Frazier at the point and Hondo at the three. W.Frazier, in particular, who I think his value decreases when used as a two guard instead of a big powerful defensive PG.

Hondo is fine at either wing position but I'd keep him at the SF because I think the starters at that position taper off a bit after the top 6/7 guys and that having a guy as good as Hondo there is a nice advantage for you. Plus, I don't like the idea of A.English or P.Stojakovic starting. Much prefer Vince's game.

I think Vince with his size (6-7, wide shoulders, strong body, incredible explosiveness) is a very tough guy for some SGs to matchup against physically. Add in his very talented skill-set and he is a very nice 4th / 5th best starter for any team.

I think I have him beat no matter who he starts at the wings and the point. 

I like my chances either way but Who may have a point in a game against your guys I might go with Vince. Walt against CP3 plays great def and limits his options. I think Vince's explosiveness would require PP to need a lot of help and with Hondo's non-stop movement LeBum would never keep up. McAdoo against the greatest PF of all time, not even close. I give you Moses in a close one but not by a lot. Ewing had size, mobility and was a great defender.

Pierce and Carter matched up 4 times in the 2001-02 season (the year I chose for Pierce and still very much in Vince's prime).  Pierce was better then Vince, though both were below their season averages.  In fact aside from one monster game from Pierce (30 points on 59%) neither player shot better then 38.5% in any of the games, though both were close to their averages in the other statistics.  As expected Pierce also got to the line more.  

[Roy H.]

It's interesting reading how certain GMs are thinking of deploying their lineups.  My thoughts on the teams that aren't using their most talented players as their starters:

1.  Portland -- I really like the decision to start Webber and Moncrief.  Bird + Webber is some amazing passing, and Moncrief is a shutdown defender who can play against the great guards in the draft.  Meanwhile, Jones brings clutch play to the second unit, and Thurmond is a good complement to Yao.

2.  Chicago -- I really dislike the idea of ever starting Dennis Rodman in a format like this.  I think that his limited scoring is going to kill the Bulls, especially when he's playing out of position.  In a league where anybody can score 20 - 30 points per night, replacing a scoring position (SF) with a no-offense player is a bad decision, in my mind.  Rodman might limit Larry, but Larry will still outscore him by 15 to 20 points per night, and the rest of Portland's team (for instance) will at the very least play the Bulls evenly (and maybe outscore them, since none of Magic, Reed, or Walton is an elite scorer).  Similarly, I don't like the idea of playing Dave Debusschere -- a power forward -- at small forward.

3.  Seattle -- This isn't a huge criticism, because Mo Lucas is such a good player, but I was surprised to see Cowens' minutes limited.  I don't see many circumstances where giving Pippen an extra 8 minutes at PF will make sense over giving Cowens those minutes, although I'm sure it depends upon matchups.

4.  Philadelphia -- I really like starting Kevin Johnson (and his elite 3PT shooting season) next to MJ, and allowing Cousy to lead the second unit.

5.  Indiana -- I like starting Marion over Rice.  I'd probably give Mourning's PF minutes to Kemp.

6.  Boston -- I agree with Who's criticism:  I'd much prefer to start Frazier at PG.  I think you can run with a Havlicek / English starting combo at the swing positions without much of a problem.  I do think Chauncey could player either PG or SG off the bench.

Dallas was a team that used its greatest players in its starting lineup, but I thought that Manu might actually be a better starter, since he's more of a facilitator than Gervin ever was.  Next to Baylor, you don't need another scorer like Gervin in the starting lineup.

I think Portland and Philadelphia strengthened their teams with their lineup changes, as did Indiana.  I think Seattle is about the same, although I think they'd be slightly improved with more Cowens.  I think Boston's proposed lineup weakens their chances, and I think Chicago's lineup *severely* weakens their chances.  Chicago was one of my favorite teams before rosters were posted, but the idea of starting either Rodman or Debusschere really kills that team for me.  Both guys are PFs, and that's where they should play.

[Who]

Rotations:

C: Hakeem (40)/ Cowens ( 8 )
PF: Mo Lu (20)/ Cowens (15)/ Pippen ( 8 )/Griffin (5)
SF: Scottie Pippen (35)/ Grant Hill (13)
SG: Reggie Lewis (28)/ Reggie Miller (15)/ Penny (5)
PG: Jason Kidd (38)/ Penny (10)

I really liked you putting Reggie Lewis into the starting lineup. Begin the game with the best defensive player at that off guard position.

R.Lewis, S.Pippen and J.Kidd is a phenomenal perimeter defense. With Hakeem hanging back in the paint as the defensive anchor. Beautiful.

----------------------------------------------

I also loved seeing D.Cowens as the backup center. As I said earlier, I like him better as an undersized C than a power forward. I haven't checked but I expect Cowens is the best backup center in the league. A nice advantage.

Grant Hill is probably one of the best backup SFs too. And, Penny Hardaway, I am not sure where he ranks amongst the backup PGs but I like having that big guard. That extra length on team defense is very nice.

Those three bench players (D.Cowens, G.Hill, P.Hardaway) form a really strong foundation off the bench. A basic eight man rotation with a bunch of specialists like Reggie Miller, Blake Griffin, Wes Unseld and Robert Horry to round out your rotation based on what type of matchups you want to create. Very nice.

[Moranis]

I've been thinking about for a little while this morning and I cannot warm to the idea of Allen Iverson in this fantasy game setting.

Too selfish, ball-stopper, over-dribbles, turnovers, bad shot selection ... will steal shots away from his teammates + stall the offense with his poor guard play.

A terrific player for a team that needs a dominant go-to guy scorer but I can't rate him highly in this setting. Thus, I wouldn't consider him as a rotation player. I'd put him deeper on the bench.

So, I would like to see Boston use David Thompson as their backup SG behind Vince instead of Iverson. Keep Billups as the backup PG. Use Iverson as the third string PG and Dave Bing as the third string SG.

---------------------------------------

Jerry Stackhouse is another player with similar flaws to Iverson. On that Philadelphia team.

Especially in that season where he led the league in scoring. Unbelievably selfish offensive play that year. So many poor possessions, low percentage shot attempts and dumb mistakes.

Phily don't have many wings. A lot of small PGs. I would have liked to have seen them grab another wing instead of one of those small guards.

Ermm, I would still drop Jerry Stackhouse. I couldn't abide watching him steal shot attempts away from the fantastic scorers on that team. It would drive me insane. Even in the 6-10 minutes a game that Stackhouse would only be playing.

I'd go with 36 minutes for MJ at the two. Then Nique with the other 12 there. 20 minutes at SF for Nique and 28 for Melo. Go with a three man wing rotation. A four man bench rotation with two bigs (D.Schayes + A.Gilmore) and a PG (Cousy).

I kind of agree with you on AI. He's the 1 guy I regret and the 1 guy I didn't directly draft. I had to give Roy a list (thanks again Roy) without a lot of thought. My list consisted mostly of SF who could also play SG and then I saw AI was still available and one of only 1 or 2 MVPs left and I threw him on the top of my list not expecting him to make it down to me anyway. Oh well, if he doesn't fit in then he will scream and go away or his GTown Alum chum Ewing, will kick him to the curb.

I think AI could do quite well with a second unit that plays to his strengths.  I'm not sure you have a second unit that accomplishes that, however.  Sometimes you just need a high volume shooter/scorer on your bench and AI is perhaps the best ever in that category.  He isn't a great team player, but there are times when his skill set is exactly what is needed.  If you could harness him into a Vinnie Johnson type player, you might have something.

[Edgar]

Later today I will be destroying your hopes and drafting egos...
like Naruto will kick Sasukes behind after becoming sage of the 6 path.
soo.. be scared  very scared

[Fafnir]

I think AI could do quite well with a second unit that plays to his strengths.  I'm not sure you have a second unit that accomplishes that, however.  Sometimes you just need a high volume shooter/scorer on your bench and AI is perhaps the best ever in that category.  He isn't a great team player, but there are times when his skill set is exactly what is needed.  If you could harness him into a Vinnie Johnson type player, you might have something.

Usually those are bench lineups that need offense because they have limited options and the first options need a break/blow.

I don't see a team that is so offensively limited to make an AI bench scorer a good option. Just too much talent for a one dimensional ball dominant scoring PG to be the best option.

[Moranis]

Rotations:

C: Hakeem (40)/ Cowens ( 8 )
PF: Mo Lu (20)/ Cowens (15)/ Pippen ( 8 )/Griffin (5)
SF: Scottie Pippen (35)/ Grant Hill (13)
SG: Reggie Lewis (28)/ Reggie Miller (15)/ Penny (5)
PG: Jason Kidd (38)/ Penny (10)

I really liked you putting Reggie Lewis into the starting lineup. Begin the game with the best defensive player at that off guard position.

R.Lewis, S.Pippen and J.Kidd is a phenomenal perimeter defense. With Hakeem hanging back in the paint as the defensive anchor. Beautiful.

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I also loved seeing D.Cowens as the backup center. As I said earlier, I like him better as an undersized C than a power forward. I haven't checked but I expect Cowens is the best backup center in the league. A nice advantage.

Grant Hill is probably one of the best backup SFs too. And, Penny Hardaway, I am not sure where he ranks amongst the backup PGs but I like having that big guard. That extra length on team defense is very nice.

Those three bench players (D.Cowens, G.Hill, P.Hardaway) form a really strong foundation off the bench. A basic eight man rotation with a bunch of specialists like Reggie Miller, Blake Griffin, Wes Unseld and Robert Horry to round out your rotation based on what type of matchups you want to create. Very nice.

I really don't think an 8 man rotation is going to work in this situation.  The teams are just too good, too deep, and too balanced.  I fully expect 10 man rotations, with most teams playing all 12/13 in every game (at least a little bit).  Just too much talent and depth and the game situations will call for the specialists a lot more.

[Who]

2.  Chicago -- I really dislike the idea of ever starting Dennis Rodman in a format like this.  I think that his limited scoring is going to kill the Bulls, especially when he's playing out of position. 

I would be wary of playing Dennis Rodman at small forward in some instances too. I wouldn't be willing to play him on the perimeter against a SF who is a high level team defender. For example; Scottie Pippen, LeBron James or Larry Bird.

I think those elite team defenders can create too much difficulties for a team's offense when Dennis is largely out on the perimeter spacing the floor.

I think playing Rodman at the SF position is fine so long as the opponent is an average to below average team defender. I feel that his offensive limitations are easier to work around when used as a big man. But again, I'd still be a little wary of putting Rodman against an elite help defender again (say KG or Big Ben). Too limited offensively.

There are plenty of matchups where Rodman will be valuable to have around as a possession creator + elite defender. Just a few that make me nervous where I would limit his court time considerably.

[Moranis]

I think AI could do quite well with a second unit that plays to his strengths.  I'm not sure you have a second unit that accomplishes that, however.  Sometimes you just need a high volume shooter/scorer on your bench and AI is perhaps the best ever in that category.  He isn't a great team player, but there are times when his skill set is exactly what is needed.  If you could harness him into a Vinnie Johnson type player, you might have something.

Usually those are bench lineups that need offense because they have limited options and the first options need a break/blow.

I don't see a team that is so offensively limited to make an AI bench scorer a good option.

Certainly a fair point, but I still think AI has some value.  Obviously, I didn't draft him as I felt others fit better, but I certainly would have considered him in the later rounds of this thing had he not been drafted.

[Who]

Rotations:

C: Hakeem (40)/ Cowens ( 8 )
PF: Mo Lu (20)/ Cowens (15)/ Pippen ( 8 )/Griffin (5)
SF: Scottie Pippen (35)/ Grant Hill (13)
SG: Reggie Lewis (28)/ Reggie Miller (15)/ Penny (5)
PG: Jason Kidd (38)/ Penny (10)

I really liked you putting Reggie Lewis into the starting lineup. Begin the game with the best defensive player at that off guard position.

R.Lewis, S.Pippen and J.Kidd is a phenomenal perimeter defense. With Hakeem hanging back in the paint as the defensive anchor. Beautiful.

----------------------------------------------

I also loved seeing D.Cowens as the backup center. As I said earlier, I like him better as an undersized C than a power forward. I haven't checked but I expect Cowens is the best backup center in the league. A nice advantage.

Grant Hill is probably one of the best backup SFs too. And, Penny Hardaway, I am not sure where he ranks amongst the backup PGs but I like having that big guard. That extra length on team defense is very nice.

Those three bench players (D.Cowens, G.Hill, P.Hardaway) form a really strong foundation off the bench. A basic eight man rotation with a bunch of specialists like Reggie Miller, Blake Griffin, Wes Unseld and Robert Horry to round out your rotation based on what type of matchups you want to create. Very nice.

I really don't think an 8 man rotation is going to work in this situation.  The teams are just too good, too deep, and too balanced.  I fully expect 10 man rotations, with most teams playing all 12/13 in every game (at least a little bit).  Just too much talent and depth and the game situations will call for the specialists a lot more.

Yeah, I meant eight regular rotation players with Seattle adding another body or two into the mix depending on what skill-sets they want to add.

The final one or two bodies being a night in night out decision based on matchups.

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I wouldn't play more than 10 players on a regular basis. Players need enough minutes to impact a game properly.

A 9 or 10 man rotation is what I would be looking for.

I also think there is quite a talent drop off on some teams for those 11th-13th players. Guys I wouldn't be comfortable giving regular playing time to ahead of the other players on their teams.