The best player in "the trade"

[Roy H.]

Hands down Green is the best player in the deal. Unless Ainge uses that future Clipper pick and drafts/trades for an impact player far superior to JG.. Which could easily happen knowing Ainge.

The best player in the deal can't be King Perk when he's only bringing 0 points, 10 rebounds, 5 fouls, and 'toughness'. If you want that or something better, you bring in guys like the O'neals. That way you don't have to payout 9 M per.

Smart man Danny, smart man.

Perk's lack of offense is comparable to Green's lack of toughness and defense.

I think Green is definitely a better defender and is more versatile defender than Perk is as an offensive player.

As for toughness I don't really see how Green isn't tough. Would you call him a soft player? He seems like he bangs pretty hard in the post and has guarded (albeit below average) a lot bigger PF compared to him. What about him doesn't make him tough?

I think Perk's lack of offense is overstated.  This is a guy who averaged over 10 points per game last year on 60.2% shooting.  He scored at about the same rate Krstic has with Boston, but did so at a higher shooting percentage.  That's not to say that Perk is better on offense than Krstic, but that the gap isn't as huge as is sometimes expressed.  For a "pure defense" center, Perk actually scored at a respectable clip.

[moiso]

Hands down Green is the best player in the deal. Unless Ainge uses that future Clipper pick and drafts/trades for an impact player far superior to JG.. Which could easily happen knowing Ainge.

The best player in the deal can't be King Perk when he's only bringing 0 points, 10 rebounds, 5 fouls, and 'toughness'. If you want that or something better, you bring in guys like the O'neals. That way you don't have to payout 9 M per.

Smart man Danny, smart man.

Perk's lack of offense is comparable to Green's lack of toughness and defense.

I think Green is definitely a better defender and is more versatile defender than Perk is as an offensive player.

As for toughness I don't really see how Green isn't tough. Would you call him a soft player? He seems like he bangs pretty hard in the post and has guarded (albeit below average) a lot bigger PF compared to him. What about him doesn't make him tough?

He's 6'9" and about as strong as Kevin Martin.  He uses his body to try to stop the guy he is guarding but he doesn't throw himself around to try to get rebounds or loose balls.  It's obvious he isn't a physical player.  Even guys like Rondo and West play a lot more physical than Green.  These guys are far more willing to put their bodies on the line.  He's definitely a reactor and not an instigator.


Not trying to bash him overall because I love his offense, but he is one of the softer guys in the league.

[CelticG1]

Hands down Green is the best player in the deal. Unless Ainge uses that future Clipper pick and drafts/trades for an impact player far superior to JG.. Which could easily happen knowing Ainge.

The best player in the deal can't be King Perk when he's only bringing 0 points, 10 rebounds, 5 fouls, and 'toughness'. If you want that or something better, you bring in guys like the O'neals. That way you don't have to payout 9 M per.

Smart man Danny, smart man.

Perk's lack of offense is comparable to Green's lack of toughness and defense.

I think Green is definitely a better defender and is more versatile defender than Perk is as an offensive player.

As for toughness I don't really see how Green isn't tough. Would you call him a soft player? He seems like he bangs pretty hard in the post and has guarded (albeit below average) a lot bigger PF compared to him. What about him doesn't make him tough?

I think Perk's lack of offense is overstated.  This is a guy who averaged over 10 points per game last year on 60.2% shooting.  He scored at about the same rate Krstic has with Boston, but did so at a higher shooting percentage.  That's not to say that Perk is better on offense than Krstic, but that the gap isn't as huge as is sometimes expressed.  For a "pure defense" center, Perk actually scored at a respectable clip.

I think Green is definitely a better defender and is more versatile defender than Perk is as an offensive player.

This was the statement I made. If I could take something from one of these players I would take Greens defense and defensive versatility over Perk's offense plain and simple.

[Fan from VT]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

[gar]

Green is not a finished product. Perk had hit his ceiling. At time of trade I would call it even up; but in terms of future potential Green still has a lot to learn. Plus I think our trainers will be able to work with him. Remember he was able to sit in the shadows with Durant (not an amazing physical specimen himself). In a more key role he has shown what he can do in OK. Once he learns the system, he could be huge.

[Who]

He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

Shawn Marion isn't overpaid and shouldn't be lumped in with guys like this.

He still one of the best wing defenders in the NBA + one of the best rebounding SF in the NBA ... and if used as a PF, he is a double double threat.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

Well, I don't think that 11 points in 23 minutes of play @ 53.5% shooting for the month of March (which is pretty much the entire time he's been with the Celtics) is anything to sneeze at.

[Fan from VT]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

Well, I don't think that 11 points in 23 minutes of play @ 53.5% shooting for the month of March (which is pretty much the entire time he's been with the Celtics) is anything to sneeze at.

Of course that was a huge improvement over anything he did in OKC in terms of shooting; of course he had a big drop in rebounding and assists (which were never that good to begin with) since coming over. He has to really increase something significantly from OKC without a dropoff or have an across the board improvement in order to really be considered more than a bench minutes sponge.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

Well, I don't think that 11 points in 23 minutes of play @ 53.5% shooting for the month of March (which is pretty much the entire time he's been with the Celtics) is anything to sneeze at.

Of course that was a huge improvement over anything he did in OKC in terms of shooting; of course he had a big drop in rebounding and assists (which were never that good to begin with) since coming over. He has to really increase something significantly from OKC without a dropoff or have an across the board improvement in order to really be considered more than a bench minutes sponge.

Drop in rebounds and assists are more of a consequence of lower minutes than anything else, but yeah not worth arguing over. He was brought here to score, and he's doing that and at a very efficient pace. Now, if Doc would give him more minutes, and the team would pass him the ball more often (Davis I'm looking at you) particularly when he's beating everyone down the floor, then he'd be more productive.

[Fan from VT]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

Well, I don't think that 11 points in 23 minutes of play @ 53.5% shooting for the month of March (which is pretty much the entire time he's been with the Celtics) is anything to sneeze at.

Of course that was a huge improvement over anything he did in OKC in terms of shooting; of course he had a big drop in rebounding and assists (which were never that good to begin with) since coming over. He has to really increase something significantly from OKC without a dropoff or have an across the board improvement in order to really be considered more than a bench minutes sponge.

Drop in rebounds and assists are more of a consequence of lower minutes than anything else, but yeah not worth arguing over. He was brought here to score, and he's doing that and at a very efficient pace. Now, if Doc would give him more minutes, and the team would pass him the ball more often (Davis I'm looking at you) particularly when he's beating everyone down the floor, then he'd be more productive.

those were drops in per minute assists and rebounds. i dont think he was brought in to stop doing things that help.

[Mr October]

Right now Green's role on the Celtics is as a garbage man. A role he does quite well. It is a luxury to have someone like that filling the lanes, slashing, posting, etc on the C's bench.

I'm curious to see what he's really made of when the playoffs start and the lights get a lot brighter.

As far as best player, yes Perkins gets the edge. But the return package is already very solid plus there is the potential of that 1st round pick from the Clippers.

Lets see how OKC and BOS do in the playoffs.

[ballin]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

I've got to agree with you. Jeff Green is one of those "potential" guys that will never materialize into anything other than an average player. Sorry, but he's a role player on any contender, and we shouldn't get fooled into paying him like he's more than just that; a role player.

[Eja117]

Meh perks been average at best.

Somebody hasn't been watching

6 points 7.7 rebounds 1 block in 24 minutes. About what you would expect from Perk. But that doesn't reflect his "toughness"

times players reconsidered driving the paint - incalculable

times other players played defense more aggressively because Perk was behind them - maybe every single time

times players on Perk's team played harder because they didn't want him to throw them down a flight of stairs - incalculable

extra confidence had because he was around - unknown

amount of fans, coaches, and players that miss Krstic - probably none

[Moranis]

I just don't see anything in Green yet. He has value as a minutes sponge for average production. That's nice, as with him on your team you can basically be guaranteed passable all-around play from two spots on the floor when your starters are resting. Good to have, but it seems to be a far cry from "best in the trade" let alone "borderline allstar," a label that has actually been seriously thrown around.

Basically, I don't see any difference between Green and, say, Marvin Williams, or a slightly worse version of Al Harrington (a guy who was statistically almost exactly an average small forward able to play 35+ MPG to get to his respectable numbers).

Just for thought:
Clearly, Green's greater contributions are currently on offense, so we'll concentrate there:
PER:
55th for PFs (around Al Harrington), 29th for SFs (around turkoglu/julian wright)
Rebound Rate:
75th PFs (Gallinari/Diaw/Rashard Lewis), 33rd for SFs (Outlaw, Granger, Al Thornton)
True Shooting:
42nd PFs (Favors, Josh Smith), 27th SF (Marion/Deng/Chandler)
Assist Rate:
44th PFs (Zach Randolph, Bosh), 49th SF (Marion, Outlaw, Chandler)
Estimated Wins:
41st PFs (Diaw, Gibson, Camby, Wilcox), 25th SFs (Marvin W, Battier, Delfino)


So what does he do above average? What does he doe that isn't replaceable with just a little planning? I don't see anything yet.
So it seems like he's a low-middle starter at SF and deep bench PF. He ends up looking a lot like Marvin, Marion, Outlaw, basically all of whom are thought to be currently overpaid at salaries quite a bit lower than what Green has been rumored to be after. Hopefully he either flips a switch, signs for much less than expected, or is not in the future plans.

I've got to agree with you. Jeff Green is one of those "potential" guys that will never materialize into anything other than an average player. Sorry, but he's a role player on any contender, and we shouldn't get fooled into paying him like he's more than just that; a role player.

so is Perkins.  what is your point?

[incoherent]

OKC is on tear recently... basically since Perkins entered the lineup.

Don't know Perks numbers but the whole chemistry theory with Perkins seems to be in effect over there.