Krstic is being overrated

[barefacedmonk]

OKC wasn't going to tie up money in Jeff Green because they had Durant, so Green wasn't really that valuable to them,

Jeff Green wanted to sign an extension with them for 10m/yr...and OKC rejected that. After the trade, they signed Perk to an extension which I believe was a 8-9m/yr. So, OKC traded a very good, young SF/PF and a pick to save 1 million?

[Jon]

If Krstic is being overrated because he's playing with 4 All Stars, we need to ask the question whether anyone who played with the Big Four has been overrated, Perk, BBD, and others included.

He's being overrated because his shots are falling and people overrate scoring/underrate defense and rebounding.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

I agree, he's being overrated.  However, I do think that if we're going to admit we overrate Krstic, we also need to admit we overrated Perk. 

Huh? Why? Who are "we"?

And it's not just people undervaluing defense.  If it was, the Celtics wouldn't have kept teams to 91 ppg with Perk out most of the season.  

What? I'm not following this. How is this connected to the question of Krstic being overrated because his shots are falling?

"We" is collective.  I don't necessarily agree with Roy's initial assertion.  However, if we as the CB community are going to entertain the notion that Krstic is being overrated by some, then I think we should also question the same thing about Perk.  

What I mean by this is that it's obviously silly to think that just because Krstic scores 17 points he can be a go to guy.  He clearly got a ton of great looks from playing with 4 All Stars.  

Similarly, we also have to start asking ourselves if we've also been overvaluing Perkins, who greatly benefited from playing with other great defensive players, most notably Kevin Garnett.  And before anyone jumps down my throat for saying that, if that at least isn't partially true (or more than that), why did the Celtics continue to be a top defensive team with him out the first half?  

My point simply is that it's easy to overvalue ANYONE who plays with 4 All Stars.  

I couldn't care less about the 4 All-Stars. That's irrelevant. To me Krstic doesn't look any different compared to how he has played in OKC, Moscow or for Serbia.

Krstic is being overrated because his shots are falling. If he was going through a slump, nobody would be calling him found money. He could be playing exactly the same way, doing the same things - it'd took a few jump-shots to bounce the other way and his reputation would be radically different.

I don't understand why Perkins is relevant to this issue, but defensive minded players are generally underrated, not overrated.

You're partially right.  

Krstic is going through a hot streak.  However, the fact that he's playing with 4 All Stars is much different than what he had in "OKC, Moscow or for Serbia."  Playing with such talent is going to give him far more open looks and he's going to be much more likely to have more hot streaks.  

Secondly, Perk matters because he was the fifth wheel.  My point is that it's easy for anyone to look good next to 4 All Stars.  And I also feel that many of the people who are looking to play down Krstic's hot start are the same people who are bemoaning trading Perkins.  And my message is simply that if Krstic is offensively overrated, Perkins was most likely defensively so.  If that wasn't the case, why did our defense stay strong with Shaq and Big Baby (and Semih Erden) manning the middle?  

And I do generally agree the defensive players are underrated; however, not on this board, and especially not on this board with Kendrick Perkins.  

[Roy H.]

OKC wasn't going to tie up money in Jeff Green because they had Durant, so Green wasn't really that valuable to them,

Jeff Green wanted to sign an extension with them for 10m/yr...and OKC rejected that. After the trade, they signed Perk to an extension which I believe was a 8-9m/yr. So, OKC traded a very good, young SF/PF and a pick to save 1 million?

Yeah, and even if they didn't have a need for Green, it seems unlikely that they'd undervalue him so much as to give him away.  I mean, some are arguing that Presti gave up the better center, a borderline all-star SF, and a potential lottery pick for a garbage center and an overpaid, undersized chucker of a SG.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me; even Chris Wallace doesn't make trades that bad.

Anyway, we've gotten into a full-on discussion of the Perk trade again, which wasn't my intention.  Rather, I do think it's important to have a little perspective with Krstic. 

[birdwatcher]

OKC wasn't going to tie up money in Jeff Green because they had Durant, so Green wasn't really that valuable to them,

Jeff Green wanted to sign an extension with them for 10m/yr...and OKC rejected that. After the trade, they signed Perk to an extension which I believe was a 8-9m/yr. So, OKC traded a very good, young SF/PF and a pick to save 1 million?

no, they didn't want to pay a 6th man starter money.

[rondohondo]

I guess for me we traded these things:

Perk, a guy who could D up one on one with any big in the league and hold his own. He has a surgically repaired knee and another with a minor injury and may not be a healthy contributor for the rest of this season. The guy doesnt have much athleticism but is tough as nails. He is at best a 50% free throw shooter and will rarely get you more than 10 points on offense.

For

Krstic, a Euro guy with decent length that has a nice shot and soft touch out to 18-20 feet. He will need help in the paint defensively against the bigger centers/PF in the league on a nightly basis. He will run the floor hard and especially crash the offensive boards. He will rarely get you more than 7 boards and if you are lucky 2 blocks a game. His FT shooting is excellent and he is a decent passer. He is healthy this year and an adequate perimeter defender for a bigman.


Both guys are capable of being starters or excellent backup centers in this league depending on how they are used. Both can be considered savvy veterans that dont make many mistakes and will be good teammates.


To expect Krstic to excell at Perks game defensively is certainly to overrate him. To expect Perk to excell in Krstics role as a shooter/scorer is to overrate him as well. They are very different players with different skill sets. Either way it is unrealistic and unfair to both guys.

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did. 

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

Oh come on Perk's offense was put backs and offense created for him by the big 4. He would post up 2 or 3 times a game and either turn the ball over, or go into that extremely slow mechanical post up move and throw up a hook . Or how about all the moving screens that Perk gets caught with.

With Kristic you can do pick and pop/roll, post him up( he is better than at this perk sorry), stretch the D out to 18 feet and be consistent with the jumper, get to the free throw line and hit a high %

Kristic is clearly a superior offensive player .

[Tai]

I hope Danny trades KG for Bargnani soon...Bargnani is younger..and puts up more points on the board. Defense is so overrated.

Yeah, good comparison.

Chuckle. Well, it is, to a certain extent, a swap of skillsets because Krstic is vastly superior to Perkins offensively, and vice versa defensively

This doesn't mean much because there's no symmetry. Perkins is one of the best at his position defensively and rebouding wise, Krstic isn't anywhere close to being a top offensive player at his position.

Krstic is now being grossly overrated because he's a guy whose biggest asset is scoring and yet he's not good enough to be more than a 4th option is a good team (post injury). That's why he'll never be more than 20ish minutes per game type of player and he surely won't get a Perkins type of contract.


That's also why he won't even be used in the playoffs if everybody is healthy. There will be like 6 or 7 shots per game available for him. If there are so little shots available, you use a guy who can bring defense and rebounding, not a scorer.

If we had enough people healthy where Krstic being sat would be an option, then I may not even mind. But to imply he's that bad to the point where we could argue he benched for the playoffs are exactly the kind of posts I mean when I wondered what Roy's talking about when he says Krstic is being overrated. By who? Cause it's clearly not everyone. Some people act like Krstic have no negatives? Well, some people wanna act like Krstic has very little to no positives, or at least not any that Perk doesn't have. Again, it's becoming that "depends on who you ask" case, again.

[Megatron]

the gap between Kristic's offense and Perk's offense is greater than the gap between the two's defense

I'll just repeat myself:

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did.

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

So what your saying is that Perkins was just as good offensively as Krstic?

[Roy H.]

I guess for me we traded these things:

Perk, a guy who could D up one on one with any big in the league and hold his own. He has a surgically repaired knee and another with a minor injury and may not be a healthy contributor for the rest of this season. The guy doesnt have much athleticism but is tough as nails. He is at best a 50% free throw shooter and will rarely get you more than 10 points on offense.

For

Krstic, a Euro guy with decent length that has a nice shot and soft touch out to 18-20 feet. He will need help in the paint defensively against the bigger centers/PF in the league on a nightly basis. He will run the floor hard and especially crash the offensive boards. He will rarely get you more than 7 boards and if you are lucky 2 blocks a game. His FT shooting is excellent and he is a decent passer. He is healthy this year and an adequate perimeter defender for a bigman.


Both guys are capable of being starters or excellent backup centers in this league depending on how they are used. Both can be considered savvy veterans that dont make many mistakes and will be good teammates.


To expect Krstic to excell at Perks game defensively is certainly to overrate him. To expect Perk to excell in Krstics role as a shooter/scorer is to overrate him as well. They are very different players with different skill sets. Either way it is unrealistic and unfair to both guys.

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did. 

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

Oh come on Perk's offense was put backs and offense created for him by the big 4. He would post up 2 or 3 times a game and either turn the ball over, or go into that extremely slow mechanical post up move and throw up a hook . Or how about all the moving screens that Perk gets caught with.

With Kristic you can do pick and pop/roll, post him up( he is better than at this perk sorry), stretch the D out to 18 feet and be consistent with the jumper, get to the free throw line and hit a high %

Kristic is clearly a superior offensive player .

Krstic is a more versatile offensive player and a better shooter, but at some point results need to be looked at.  I don't see a huge difference between scoring on putbacks and scoring on an open 15 footer; each is worth two points. 

If people are going to argue that there's a huge difference between Perk's offense production (rather than versatility) and Krstic's offense production, show me the evidence.  I'll accept that Krstic may be better offensively overall (although I think Perk is better in the post), but I don't think the gap is a big one at all.

[Roy H.]

the gap between Kristic's offense and Perk's offense is greater than the gap between the two's defense

I'll just repeat myself:

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did.

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

So what your saying is that Perkins was just as good offensively as Krstic?

See my post above.  Krstic is more versatile, and he allows an offense to do more things.  Perk, however, is better in the post, scores more efficiently, and overall has scored more prolifically.

[droponov]

If Krstic is being overrated because he's playing with 4 All Stars, we need to ask the question whether anyone who played with the Big Four has been overrated, Perk, BBD, and others included.

He's being overrated because his shots are falling and people overrate scoring/underrate defense and rebounding.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

I agree, he's being overrated.  However, I do think that if we're going to admit we overrate Krstic, we also need to admit we overrated Perk. 

Huh? Why? Who are "we"?

And it's not just people undervaluing defense.  If it was, the Celtics wouldn't have kept teams to 91 ppg with Perk out most of the season.  

What? I'm not following this. How is this connected to the question of Krstic being overrated because his shots are falling?

"We" is collective.  I don't necessarily agree with Roy's initial assertion.  However, if we as the CB community are going to entertain the notion that Krstic is being overrated by some, then I think we should also question the same thing about Perk.  

What I mean by this is that it's obviously silly to think that just because Krstic scores 17 points he can be a go to guy.  He clearly got a ton of great looks from playing with 4 All Stars.  

Similarly, we also have to start asking ourselves if we've also been overvaluing Perkins, who greatly benefited from playing with other great defensive players, most notably Kevin Garnett.  And before anyone jumps down my throat for saying that, if that at least isn't partially true (or more than that), why did the Celtics continue to be a top defensive team with him out the first half?  

My point simply is that it's easy to overvalue ANYONE who plays with 4 All Stars.  

I couldn't care less about the 4 All-Stars. That's irrelevant. To me Krstic doesn't look any different compared to how he has played in OKC, Moscow or for Serbia.

Krstic is being overrated because his shots are falling. If he was going through a slump, nobody would be calling him found money. He could be playing exactly the same way, doing the same things - it'd took a few jump-shots to bounce the other way and his reputation would be radically different.

I don't understand why Perkins is relevant to this issue, but defensive minded players are generally underrated, not overrated.

You're partially right.  

Krstic is going through a hot streak.  However, the fact that he's playing with 4 All Stars is much different than what he had in "OKC, Moscow or for Serbia."  Playing with such talent is going to give him far more open looks and he's going to be much more likely to have more hot streaks.  

Secondly, Perk matters because he was the fifth wheel.  My point is that it's easy for anyone to look good next to 4 All Stars.  And I also feel that many of the people who are looking to play down Krstic's hot start are the same people who are bemoaning trading Perkins.  And my message is simply that if Krstic is offensively overrated, Perkins was most likely defensively so.  If that wasn't the case, why did our defense stay strong with Shaq and Big Baby (and Semih Erden) manning the middle?  

And I do generally agree the defensive players are underrated; however, not on this board, and especially not on this board with Kendrick Perkins.  

I was in favour of the trade from the beginning and wrote some posts when the trade happened saying that Krstic was being underrated over here.

I could see Krstic improving his efficiency a bit (but it's not like defenses were focusing on him in OKC); on the other hand he'll remain a fairly low usage player, so it won't matter much. This is exactly what I think most people are missing: the better offensive game of Krstic is not that big of a deal because he's the 5th option. As a 5th option, a highly efficient 9 ppg player is basically as good as a guy who can score 20 ppg in any given night if he has the shots. Because he won't have the shots.

I find your reasoning that "if Krstic is being overrated, then Perkins was most likely overrated too" way too bizarre and weird. I can't even start understanding how does that make sense. I think Krstic is being overrated and Perkins contributions are being underrated. When people say they're about the same level of player, that's the obvious conclusion.

[Roy H.]

Sorry to challenge people's assumptions.  It's just hard for me to accept that the player who:

a) scores more;
b) shoots a much higher percentage;
c) averages more assists; and
d) averages more offensive rebounds...

... is the *vastly* inferior offensive player.  I just don't buy it.  Call Krstic more versatile, sure.  Maybe "slightly better".  But definitely not vastly better.

[rondohondo]

I guess for me we traded these things:

Perk, a guy who could D up one on one with any big in the league and hold his own. He has a surgically repaired knee and another with a minor injury and may not be a healthy contributor for the rest of this season. The guy doesnt have much athleticism but is tough as nails. He is at best a 50% free throw shooter and will rarely get you more than 10 points on offense.

For

Krstic, a Euro guy with decent length that has a nice shot and soft touch out to 18-20 feet. He will need help in the paint defensively against the bigger centers/PF in the league on a nightly basis. He will run the floor hard and especially crash the offensive boards. He will rarely get you more than 7 boards and if you are lucky 2 blocks a game. His FT shooting is excellent and he is a decent passer. He is healthy this year and an adequate perimeter defender for a bigman.


Both guys are capable of being starters or excellent backup centers in this league depending on how they are used. Both can be considered savvy veterans that dont make many mistakes and will be good teammates.


To expect Krstic to excell at Perks game defensively is certainly to overrate him. To expect Perk to excell in Krstics role as a shooter/scorer is to overrate him as well. They are very different players with different skill sets. Either way it is unrealistic and unfair to both guys.

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did. 

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

Oh come on Perk's offense was put backs and offense created for him by the big 4. He would post up 2 or 3 times a game and either turn the ball over, or go into that extremely slow mechanical post up move and throw up a hook . Or how about all the moving screens that Perk gets caught with.

With Kristic you can do pick and pop/roll, post him up( he is better than at this perk sorry), stretch the D out to 18 feet and be consistent with the jumper, get to the free throw line and hit a high %

Kristic is clearly a superior offensive player .

Krstic is a more versatile offensive player and a better shooter, but at some point results need to be looked at.  I don't see a huge difference between scoring on putbacks and scoring on an open 15 footer; each is worth two points. 

If people are going to argue that there's a huge difference between Perk's offense production (rather than versatility) and Krstic's offense production, show me the evidence.  I'll accept that Krstic may be better offensively overall (although I think Perk is better in the post), but I don't think the gap is a big one at all.

how about spreading the floor for Rondo and PP so they can drive the lane or post up without having to worry about Perk( who has horrible hands) clog up the lane for them. They can get away with it with Shaq because he has great hands and can just go up for the lob.

Kristic can do everything Perk can on offense and much more. Lets not forget he was playing in the iso heavy lineup so he was basically a spot up shooter on that team.

[BudweiserCeltic]

the gap between Kristic's offense and Perk's offense is greater than the gap between the two's defense

I'll just repeat myself:

Perk scored 10+ points in more than 50% of the games he played last year.  In the last *two* seasons, Krstic has scored in double digits in a combined 47 games.  Perk did it 41 times last year alone.

People who say "Perk = defense, Krstic = offense" are underrating Perk's offensive contributions.  He scored more per minute, shot a much higher percentage, averaged twice as many assists, and created more of his own offense than Krstic did.

Yet, people ignore the above, which is another reason that Krstic is overrated.  Many act as if Perk was the equivalent of a poor man's Ben Wallace on offense.

Three total turnovers in 5 games. Has Perkins ever done that? And it's not only about that. It's about spacing, about needing to guard him in the perimeter, and if they don't guard him being able to hit the open jumper with decent consistency. It's about when getting fouled being able to hit free-throws at a decent percentage. Does things don't figure into the FG%.

In 5 games we're averaging 27.8 points in the first quarter (which includes only 18 in their very first game together). We've witnessed similar phenomenons when people other than Perk have started the game instead of him, like say Scalabrine.

So let's not read too much into the stats about Perk's offensive prowess.

[Roy H.]

So let's not read too much into the stats about Perk's offensive prowess.

Let's not read too much into the stats put up against Phoenix and Golden State, either.

This isn't a one year phenomenon.  Perk and Krstic have had similar offensive production for the past several seasons (outside of FG%, where Perk has consistently been better).  It's hard for me to accept that there is a huge chasm between two guys who have put up similar stats in similar roles.

[CoachBo]

If Krstic is being overrated because he's playing with 4 All Stars, we need to ask the question whether anyone who played with the Big Four has been overrated, Perk, BBD, and others included.

He's being overrated because his shots are falling and people overrate scoring/underrate defense and rebounding.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

I agree, he's being overrated.  However, I do think that if we're going to admit we overrate Krstic, we also need to admit we overrated Perk.

Huh? Why? Who are "we"?

And it's not just people undervaluing defense.  If it was, the Celtics wouldn't have kept teams to 91 ppg with Perk out most of the season.  

What? I'm not following this. How is this connected to the question of Krstic being overrated because his shots are falling?

"We" is collective.  I don't necessarily agree with Roy's initial assertion.  However, if we as the CB community are going to entertain the notion that Krstic is being overrated by some, then I think we should also question the same thing about Perk.  

What I mean by this is that it's obviously silly to think that just because Krstic scores 17 points he can be a go to guy.  He clearly got a ton of great looks from playing with 4 All Stars.  

Similarly, we also have to start asking ourselves if we've also been overvaluing Perkins, who greatly benefited from playing with other great defensive players, most notably Kevin Garnett.  And before anyone jumps down my throat for saying that, if that at least isn't partially true (or more than that), why did the Celtics continue to be a top defensive team with him out the first half?  

My point simply is that it's easy to overvalue ANYONE who plays with 4 All Stars.  

I couldn't care less about the 4 All-Stars. That's irrelevant. To me Krstic doesn't look any different compared to how he has played in OKC, Moscow or for Serbia.

Krstic is being overrated because his shots are falling. If he was going through a slump, nobody would be calling him found money. He could be playing exactly the same way, doing the same things - it'd took a few jump-shots to bounce the other way and his reputation would be radically different.

I don't understand why Perkins is relevant to this issue, but defensive minded players are generally underrated, not overrated.

You're partially right.  

Krstic is going through a hot streak.  However, the fact that he's playing with 4 All Stars is much different than what he had in "OKC, Moscow or for Serbia."  Playing with such talent is going to give him far more open looks and he's going to be much more likely to have more hot streaks.  

Secondly, Perk matters because he was the fifth wheel.  My point is that it's easy for anyone to look good next to 4 All Stars.  And I also feel that many of the people who are looking to play down Krstic's hot start are the same people who are bemoaning trading Perkins.  And my message is simply that if Krstic is offensively overrated, Perkins was most likely defensively so.  If that wasn't the case, why did our defense stay strong with Shaq and Big Baby (and Semih Erden) manning the middle?  

And I do generally agree the defensive players are underrated; however, not on this board, and especially not on this board with Kendrick Perkins.  

Quoted for truth, Jon. Well said.

This discussion isn't going to be resolved. No one undervalued Perkins' defense, but calling him anything but a very rough, rudimentary offensive player with no jump shot, bad hands and poor footspeed is, quite frankly, an exaggeration.

The same way that anyone who thinks Nenad's going to body up Dwight Howard is exaggerating.

Time will resolve this discussion, although I frankly doubt if some of you are ever going to accept Perkins being dealt, regardless of the result on the floor. That's why we keep having these debates that are based on what Krstic and Green did in OKC, when it should be becoming apparent with every passing game that those results have comparatively little to do with the results the two will produce in Boston. I keep reading in this thread that Perkins scores more, and I can't reiterate how irrelevant that comparison is. Any comparisons should be based on the results in the new systems; these comparisons you keep offering, Roy, aren't relevant.

Trying to base an analysis of this trade on what the involved players did with their old clubs is one of the bigger strawmen I've ever witnessed on this board. Perkins isn't going to score, at all, at OKC, because the system won't allow him to - it's structured for two players, only. His job is to defend, which he's good at when he's healthy - there's that point the critics of this trade keep ignoring - and to rebound, which he's a little above average at.

Same story in Boston - Krstic is already scoring more, because of the Celtics ball motion offense. Same with Green. The rebounding will eventually be eaten up by Garnett, Pierce and the other centers, along with Krstic. We're not asking either of the new guys to duplicate Perkins' work on the boards, and no one should insinuate that we are.

That's how you evaluate this deal - I don't care, at all, what any of the players did on their former teams. It's irrelevant.

Different teammates, different systems, different results. Believe I said that the night of the deal, and absolutely nothing has changed.

I'm sure we'll miss Perkins' rebounding and defense to some degree, but not to the extent that some of you want all of us to believe. And if we do, it's not the net deficit that some of you keep projecting because we're so much improved athletically, and so much improved offensively by the deal.