Kobe Becomes 10th All Time in NBA Scoring

[Finkelskyhook]

I watched them all, I have a question for you.

Put Paul Pierce or Ray Allen on those Lakers teams, do they still win three titles? I think they do, or at least would have the same chance at it.  

I wouldn't because neither Paul nor Ray could defend close to as well as Kobe.  Particularly in crunch time.  Both are solid defensively but not in Kobe's league.  
  
 

[BballTim]

I watched them all, I have a question for you.

Put Paul Pierce or Ray Allen on those Lakers teams, do they still win three titles? I think they do, or at least would have the same chance at it.  

I wouldn't because neither Paul nor Ray could defend close to as well as Kobe.  Particularly in crunch time.  Both are solid defensively but not in Kobe's league.  
  
 

  Who exactly did he play smothering defense against in those finals years? Iverson? Miller?

[GreenEnvy]

Kobe gets way to much credit for winning titles with Shaq in his prime. KG just played for a rubish franchise.

That is such a straw dog argument.

How many championships would Jordan have won without an in his prime Pippen...Or vice versa?

How many championships would Bird have won without an in his prime Parish or McHale?  Or vice versa?

That Kobe could win championships with completely different rosters  speaks to his quality as a player.

Ugh do I hate this argument.

There is no shadow of a doubt that Shaq was going to win titles, and many of them. He just happened to do it with Kobe. As a young player he went to the Finals with Penny. You think a few more years together (and Phil Jackson), they wouldn't have started collecting jewelry? A year after he left LA, he won with some other SG named Wade. Some will point to Kobe's latest run, but it means nothing in regards to the Lakers 3-peat in 2000-02.

Kobe, atleast early in his career, was one of the very good SG's in the league, with an ego that rivaled any. Shaq was bar-none the most dominant player in the game for a good 5 years.

Jordan would have undoubtedly won with another great player. Pippen just happened to be the one. Jordan won all 6 Finals that he was in, and more incredibly, all 6 Finals MVP (although some believe Pip deserved one - either '97 or '98 I forget which). Pippen would have been an all-star elsewhere, but we all KNOW he wouldn't have 6 rings. Jordan may not have gotten 6 in 6 full seasons without Pippen, but he would have won a whole bunch without him anyway.


No one player wins championships. Ask Wilt. Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, etc. all needed great players around them. Doesn't mean they were the real reason they won.

[soap07]

KG's inability, in his prime, to take the reins in crunch time consistently on offense will always put him a notch below Kobe in their respective primes, IMO. Kobe is every bit the defender that KG is at their respective positions and passer as well. Kobe is a much, much better scorer obviously.

For the Kobe/Shaq debate, in his prime, Shaq was more dominant. But by the end of his career, Kobe will have had a better career than Shaq. (Same for Tim Duncan, IMO).

The best players of the last decade, IMO.

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Tim Duncan
4. KG

[soap07]

There is no shadow of a doubt that Shaq was going to win titles, and many of them. He just happened to do it with Kobe. As a young player he went to the Finals with Penny. You think a few more years together (and Phil Jackson), they wouldn't have started collecting jewelry? A year after he left LA, he won with some other SG named Wade. Some will point to Kobe's latest run, but it means nothing in regards to the Lakers 3-peat in 2000-02.

Why can't someone say the same things about Kobe in that there was no shadow of a doubt that he would win titles?

[Roy H.]

There is no shadow of a doubt that Shaq was going to win titles, and many of them. He just happened to do it with Kobe. As a young player he went to the Finals with Penny. You think a few more years together (and Phil Jackson), they wouldn't have started collecting jewelry? A year after he left LA, he won with some other SG named Wade. Some will point to Kobe's latest run, but it means nothing in regards to the Lakers 3-peat in 2000-02.

Why can't someone say the same things about Kobe in that there was no shadow of a doubt that he would win titles?

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

[soap07]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

[Edgar]

There is no shadow of a doubt that Shaq was going to win titles, and many of them. He just happened to do it with Kobe. As a young player he went to the Finals with Penny. You think a few more years together (and Phil Jackson), they wouldn't have started collecting jewelry? A year after he left LA, he won with some other SG named Wade. Some will point to Kobe's latest run, but it means nothing in regards to the Lakers 3-peat in 2000-02.

Why can't someone say the same things about Kobe in that there was no shadow of a doubt that he would win titles?

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

basketball is  a game of size
if youre not called mj youre not allowed to think differet

[wdleehi]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

You mean Odom and Butler?  Is that any worse then Cassel and Spree that KG pulled to the  best record in the West?

[Fafnir]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

You mean Odom and Butler?  Is that any worse then Cassel and Spree that KG pulled to the  best record in the West?

Butler was immediately flipped for Kwame Brown wasn't he? Whoops!

[wdleehi]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

You mean Odom and Butler?  Is that any worse then Cassel and Spree that KG pulled to the  best record in the West?

Butler was immediately flipped for Kwame Brown wasn't he? Whoops!

He played 77 games for the Lakers in 04-05


The Lakers missed the playoffs.

[Fafnir]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

You mean Odom and Butler?  Is that any worse then Cassel and Spree that KG pulled to the  best record in the West?

Butler was immediately flipped for Kwame Brown wasn't he? Whoops!

He played 77 games for the Lakers in 04-05


The Lakers missed the playoffs.

Oh yeah, I forgot they tried it for one year. Then they flipped him for Kwame and made the playoffs.

Clearly Kwame Brown > Tough Juice....

[wdleehi]

They can say it, but I think fewer people will believe it.  Kobe, when surrounded by a less-than-stellar surrounding cast, was missing the playoffs.  In his prime, Shaq's teams were pretty much a contender every year of his career.

I think "less-than-stellar" is giving that supporting cast that missed the playoffs too much credit. Even Shaq wasn't taking that team to the playoffs.

You mean Odom and Butler?  Is that any worse then Cassel and Spree that KG pulled to the  best record in the West?

Butler was immediately flipped for Kwame Brown wasn't he? Whoops!

He played 77 games for the Lakers in 04-05


The Lakers missed the playoffs.

Oh yeah, I forgot they tried it for one year. Then they flipped him for Kwame and made the playoffs.

Clearly Kwame Brown > Tough Juice....

Kobe needs size to make the playoffs. 

[drza44]

KG's inability, in his prime, to take the reins in crunch time consistently on offense will always put him a notch below Kobe in their respective primes, IMO. Kobe is every bit the defender that KG is at their respective positions and passer as well. Kobe is a much, much better scorer obviously.

You can't selectively give a positional correction to fit your argument.  You say that Kobe is as good a defender as KG"at their respective positions"...ok, well if that's true (I disagree, but for now say it is) then KG is a MUCH better passer for a power forward than Kobe is for a shooting guard.  As far as scoring, Garnett ranks about 10th all-time among power forwards in career scoring average while Kobe's is sixth or seventh among shooting guards.  Give Kobe a slight positional edge in scoring, but there's no "much, much" in there.

Or, we can just look at impact regardless of position, which to me seems more practical.  And in that case Bryant does have a sizeable scoring advantage, with KG having the big defensive advantage.  And then we evaluate the details from there, using whatever tools and arguments you have at hand. 

Either way, though, you can't explain away Kobe's weaker areas by position then not do the same in reverse.  Gotta pick a direction and stay with it.

[Fafnir]

Kobe needs size to make the playoffs. 

Everyone does realy.