A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Moranis]

You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.

I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.

I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each.  Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.

eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order. 

[Roy H.]

You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.

I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.

I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each.  Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.

eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order.

Also, would a couple of 1500 page books be all that surprising?

[Moranis]

You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.

I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.

I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each.  Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.

eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order.

Also, would a couple of 1500 page books be all that surprising?

well that to, a dance with dragons was over 1000 pages.

[fairweatherfan]

You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.

I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.

I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each.  Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.

Oh man, I forgot about Mance Rayder still being alive due to a switcheroo on his execution pyre and leading a group of disguised Wildling women into Winterfell to do...something?...to Ramsay Bolton. And his infant son being part of ANOTHER switcheroo with Gilly+Craster's infant son so Melisandre couldn't torch him for power. And that Darkstar guy who was supposed to be like an even more badass Viper but was written so poorly people thought he was a satire. Yeah I can see why each book has come out slower than the last.

Also, would a couple of 1500 page books be all that surprising?

well that to, a dance with dragons was over 1000 pages.

Two books that are each a mere 50+% longer than an absolutely massive book that ran so long it notoriously ended before its intended climaxes.

[jpotter33]

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a27378413/tyrion-cersei-iron-throne-baby-theory/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCOS&utm_medium=social-media

Don’t judge me on the link (lol); I saw it on Facebook. But this is something that could play a major role in the conflict moving forward. From Euron’s perspective who just found out that Cersei was pregnant with his supposed kid, Tyrion should not have any knowledge of her pregnancy, in fact, no one in the north should.

I think once Euron connects those dots he could turn on Cersei and be an integral part of beating her, though it still does seem likely that one of Tyrion or Jamie kills her per the prophecy, or even Arya given her list.

[keevsnick]

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a27378413/tyrion-cersei-iron-throne-baby-theory/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCOS&utm_medium=social-media

Don’t judge me on the link (lol); I saw it on Facebook. But this is something that could play a major role in the conflict moving forward. From Euron’s perspective who just found out that Cersei was pregnant with his supposed kid, Tyrion should not have any knowledge of her pregnancy, in fact, no one in the north should.

I think once Euron connects those dots he could turn on Cersei and be an integral part of beating her, though it still does seem likely that one of Tyrion or Jamie kills her per the prophecy, or even Arya given her list.

To me it's just as likely Euron never puts it together, not because the character misses it but because honestly I think it's more a matter of bad writing and a terrible plot overlooking that he should get it.

[tazzmaniac]

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a27378413/tyrion-cersei-iron-throne-baby-theory/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCOS&utm_medium=social-media

Don’t judge me on the link (lol); I saw it on Facebook. But this is something that could play a major role in the conflict moving forward. From Euron’s perspective who just found out that Cersei was pregnant with his supposed kid, Tyrion should not have any knowledge of her pregnancy, in fact, no one in the north should.

I think once Euron connects those dots he could turn on Cersei and be an integral part of beating her, though it still does seem likely that one of Tyrion or Jamie kills her per the prophecy, or even Arya given her list.

I had that same thought. However, it is not exactly clear on timing from when Euron found out to when the meeting occurred.  You know Euron would have been crowing about it once he found out and word would spread fast. 

There is a complicating factor a few episodes back Cersei allowed one of her servants to see Jaime in bed with her.  If the servant talked, Euron probably would have found about it already.  So assuming she didn't, the servant would be a threat.  If Euron confronts her, Cersei could claim Tyrion must have a spy who must have heard her and Qyburn discussing the pregnancy.  Then she could have Qyburn "hunt for the spy" who turns out to be the servant who confesses under torture but unfortunately dies. 

Another complicating factor is Jaime is returning to Cersei.  Not exactly clear on Jaime's purpose for doing so but how will Jaime react to Euron boasting about Cersei being pregnant with his son? 

I don't see Euron bringing down Cersei.  He's just a pawn for her.  The worst he'd do was leave with his fleet and weaken her position.  Of course she could just have the Mountain kill Euron and have his 2nd in command take over the fleet. 

[tazzmaniac]

It wasn't a bad episode but there was a lot of cheesy stuff.
Things I didn't like. How quickly the dragon died. How Jamie got together with Sir Brieane. Jon needing to reveal his parents. Sansa being so anti Dany after the battle. Tyrion advising another seat and meet after death of the dragon. Bron just gets in with a bow and gets promised High garden.

Things I liked
Jamie leaving Brie was powerful. Arya turning down Gendry, he is his father's son. Euron on the sneak attack again (but it's unlikely to be possible unless he came out a cove/cave). Grey worm losing Mesiande but should have been at the seas attack. Dany losing her mind. Varys being himself. Tormond being love crushed and drunk.

Euron's sneak attack was nonsensical and unnecessary.  They should have just had Euron's fleet be spotted.  Dany would have had every reason to attack his fleet (e.g. defend her own ships/people and destroy the enemy ships/people) and no reason based on passed experience to be overly concerned that the ships posed a threat to her dragons. 

Varys was being himself but so was Tyrion.  Sansa played Tyrion like a fiddle.  I was so hoping Bron would kill Tyrion but at least the punch in the nose was funny.  Then Cersei has a chance to kill Tyrion and doesn't follow through.  Now I've got to hope Tyrion becomes dragon food for plotting against Dany.  The funny part of the Varys and Tyrion discussion was that they think Dany and Jon marriage option wouldn't work because she is too strong willed for Jon.

Shooting a giant metal arrow from a ship at sea on a moving platform with high wind into a quickly flying dragon at an upward trajectory from behind a mountain and you hit 3-3. Talk about fantasy...

I agree it looks silly.  However all of Euron's ships had scorpions and the shot was done in closeup  so you could explain it away by saying all the ships fired and you just didn't see the misses. 

Based on how good those scorpions on the ships were.  The one's mounted on King's Landings walls should be devastating to an attacking army. 

[tazzmaniac]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show. 

[RPGenerate]

I saw this sentiment on reddit, but I'm really surprised at how badly the story is missing fAegon. With the Golden Company siding with Cersei, it seems that Cersei is being pushed into the same role that fAegon was supposed to play in the books. It makes so much more sense that Dany would be fighting a fAegon that had decisively taken King's Landing from Cersei, and had allied himself with Dorne and the Golden Company. His exclusion also makes Varys's whole character make absolutely no sense.

[Moranis]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel. 

[Csfan1984]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.

Idk Tarleys turning on the High Garden after what Cersei pulled is wrong and maybe Dany didn't see that they needed a second chance seeing both fought against people they were sworn to. As we have see region loyalty usually comes before the crown and given the circumstances Cersei was in the wrong against their people. Also Dany was avenging a person who told her to be a dragon.

[Celtics4ever]

I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die

They died to show her cruelty and potential madness,

There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house

Sam is still alive. and now his father is dead primogeniture will apply it won't matter if his father diswowned him.

Primogeniture (English: /praɪməˈdʒɛnɪtʃər/) is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate son to inherit his parent's entire or main estate, in preference to shared inheritance among all or some children, a child other than the eldest male, a daughter, illegitimate child or a collateral relative. In some cases the estate may instead be the inheritance of the firstborn child or occasionally the firstborn daughter. The descendant (often the son) of a deceased elder sibling (typically elder brother) inherits before a living younger sibling by right of substitution for the deceased heir. In the absence of any children, brothers succeed, individually, to the inheritance by seniority of age (subject to substitution). Among siblings, sons usually inherit before daughters. In the absence of male descendants in the male-line, there are variations of primogeniture which allocate the inheritance to a daughter or a brother or, in the absence of either, to another collateral relative, in a specified order (e.g. male-preference primogeniture, Salic primogeniture, semi-Salic primogeniture).

The principle has applied in history to inheritance of real property (land) as well as inherited titles and offices, most notably monarchies, continuing until modified or abolished.

Primogeniture (English: /praɪməˈdʒɛnɪtʃər/) is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate son to inherit his parent's entire or main estate, in preference to shared inheritance among all or some children, a child other than the eldest male, a daughter, illegitimate child or a collateral relative. In some cases the estate may instead be the inheritance of the firstborn child or occasionally the firstborn daughter. The descendant (often the son) of a deceased elder sibling (typically elder brother) inherits before a living younger sibling by right of substitution for the deceased heir. In the absence of any children, brothers succeed, individually, to the inheritance by seniority of age (subject to substitution). Among siblings, sons usually inherit before daughters. In the absence of male descendants in the male-line, there are variations of primogeniture which allocate the inheritance to a daughter or a brother or, in the absence of either, to another collateral relative, in a specified order (e.g. male-preference primogeniture, Salic primogeniture, semi-Salic primogeniture).

The principle has applied in history to inheritance of real property (land) as well as inherited titles and offices, most notably monarchies, continuing until modified or abolished.

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.

Big difference between killing traitors and killing those who won't bend the knee, though.   As for brutality, Machiavelli, said that people rule through fear and love in the Prince.

In addressing the question of whether it is better to be loved or feared, Machiavelli writes, “The answer is that one would like to be both the one and the other; but because it is difficult to combine them, it is far safer to be feared than loved if you cannot be both.” As Machiavelli asserts, commitments made in peace are not always kept in adversity; however, commitments made in fear are kept out of fear. Yet, a prince must ensure that he is not feared to the point of hatred, which is very possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince#How_to_judge_the_strength_of_principalities_(Chapter_10)

Yet, most think Jon would be a better King than Danny a queen.

[Roy H.]

This nails the terrible military tactics on display:

History’s filled with terrible military leaders. Quintilius Varus, Horatio Gates, Ambrose Burnside, George A. Custer, Sir Douglas Haig, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Saddam Hussein come to mind. But I would offer up two more. Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, etc. and Jon Snow, Warden of the North.

In Season 8 of Game of Thrones we have seen these two military leaders in action and I must say that I’m kind of shocked at their poor generalship … certainly where tactics comes into play. They have fought in two major engagements so far, the Battle Of Winterfell, and the naval expedition to Dragonstone. Let’s examine how they did, shall we?

First of all, let’s dissect the fight to defend Winterfell from the onslaught of the Army of the Dead. The strategy centered around a defense-in-depth approach with the main impediment to the enemy being the fortress of Winterfell itself. And yet, they mustered their combined armies out in the open and, worse, placed their catapults up front, rather than safely behind the walls where they could unleash a storm of flaming projectiles unimpeded at the charging dead. The catapults were soon captured and rendered useless. In effect, Daenerys and Snow gave up their heavy artillery in the first few minutes of the battle.

And before the engagement even got properly underway, they prematurely unleashed the Dothraki cavalry in a foolish charge right out of the Light Brigade against an enemy whose strength was unknown and hidden under the cloak of night. Although it made for stunning cinematic imagery, the outcome was to be expected. The Dothraki, in effect light cavalry (not heavily armored knights with lances) were overwhelmed and cut to ribbons. It would have been best to save them for a counterblow, an encircling maneuver ala Hannibal at Cannae, or some sort of coup de grace chase.

And what of the phalanxes of infantry spearheaded by the Unsullied and supported by Wildlings and Northmen? Why were they arrayed outside the castle? Would it not have been better to keep them back within the protection of the citadel manning the walls and preventing the Dead from climbing over the top? How much more effective of a defense would these soldiers have mounted by fighting from behind high battlements rather than out in the open plain facing an attacking force that greatly outnumbered them? (I guess the writers never considered the plight of the Union XI Corps at Gettysburg which, when compelled to defend flat, open terrain against superior numbers, was routed in an hour).

As for the flaming trench, it was a good idea. So why didn’t they dig several? They could have presented the Dead with not one but two or three rivers of fire to overcome. And each time they faced another burning moat, their advance would’ve been blunted and the defenders would’ve had the Dead right where they wanted them: exposed in the open and pinned against the flames in a stationary position. That would’ve been the moment for catapults, archers with flaming arrows, and, of course, two dragons to do their worst. And those who eventually would make it through the deathtraps then would’ve had to climb the high walls and face a rested, fully intact army ready to beat them back from behind the protection of stone battlements. (Oh, and no flaming oil guys?)

 
Ultimately none of this would have mattered anyway … not when it just took one assassin girl with a dragon glass dagger to end the combat with one stab. Given that, what was the use of all that sacrifice? The fiercest cavalry in Westeros was decimated while its most disciplined army severely bloodied. The bottom line is this: but for the pint-sized Arya Stark and her magic blade, Daenerys’ and Jon’s defense of Winterfell would have resulted in a massacre.

Not to be outdone in their blundering tactics, our aunt-nephew tag-team doubled down on stupidity. First they ignored Sansa’s sound advice and gave their bloodied and exhausted army no time to rest, resupply, or recover from wounds. Instead they marched and sailed pell-mell for King’s Landing.

Now, I’m not sure what military textbooks they were reading, but it’s usually advisable that when you go on the offensive you do some recon to get the lay of the land and find out what’s waiting for you out there over the hill. And along with well-placed spies and scouts, what’s the best way to gather intelligence of enemy strength and dispositions? Aerial reconnaissance. Oh well, this was the age before drones. Still, if only they had some sort of flying—hey! Wait a minute. Here’s an idea. Maybe Daenerys or Jon should’ve hopped on a dragon and done a fly-over of the area they planned on attacking. See what was in store for them like, oh I dunno, a Kracken fleet with giant dragon-killing cross-bows?

 
It’s also a good idea to remember what weapons your enemy possesses … Daenerys already knew the Lannisters had good anti-dragon technology from the attack on their wagon train when Bron almost took one out. (A cautionary reminder from Jamie before they set off would have been nice). One would expect that Cersei, and certainly Qyburn, would’ve had their masons feverishly constructing more of these dragon-killers … which they apparently did. So, given what she already knew about their ack-ack technology — and having already lost one to the Night King’s ground fire — why would Daenerys fly her two remaining dragons, her most precious military assets, just a few hundred feet off the ground when a thousand would’ve kept them well out of harm’s way and offered a much better prospect of the surrounding countryside and any nasty surprises awaiting her ships around the next bend?

Once Euron’s surprise attack was underway, and he’d taken out one dragon — half of his enemy’s air force — all Daenerys needed to do was fly her remaining dragon very high, mindful to stay out of range, and then swoop around the rear of the fleet and gone all “Dracarus!” on them. She must have seen from her vantage point that the cross-bows were only mounted on the bow of Euron’s ships, and thus were their sterns completely vulnerable. It’s not like the warships could’ve come about quicker than a dragon would’ve circled around the back and swooped in for the kill. I guess Daenerys never heard of the classic flanking maneuver as old as warfare itself?

So. The score stands at Common Sense 2, the Targaryen duo 0. Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. Even history’s greatest captains suffered defeats. Thus it’s my hope that team Targaryen will learn from their mistakes and fight the next battle only after a serious perusal of Sun-Tzu’s Art Of War. Otherwise my money’s on the Lannisters. We shall see.

[Redz]

This nails the terrible military tactics on display:

History’s filled with terrible military leaders. Quintilius Varus, Horatio Gates, Ambrose Burnside, George A. Custer, Sir Douglas Haig, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Saddam Hussein come to mind. But I would offer up two more. Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, etc. and Jon Snow, Warden of the North.

In Season 8 of Game of Thrones we have seen these two military leaders in action and I must say that I’m kind of shocked at their poor generalship … certainly where tactics comes into play. They have fought in two major engagements so far, the Battle Of Winterfell, and the naval expedition to Dragonstone. Let’s examine how they did, shall we?

First of all, let’s dissect the fight to defend Winterfell from the onslaught of the Army of the Dead. The strategy centered around a defense-in-depth approach with the main impediment to the enemy being the fortress of Winterfell itself. And yet, they mustered their combined armies out in the open and, worse, placed their catapults up front, rather than safely behind the walls where they could unleash a storm of flaming projectiles unimpeded at the charging dead. The catapults were soon captured and rendered useless. In effect, Daenerys and Snow gave up their heavy artillery in the first few minutes of the battle.

And before the engagement even got properly underway, they prematurely unleashed the Dothraki cavalry in a foolish charge right out of the Light Brigade against an enemy whose strength was unknown and hidden under the cloak of night. Although it made for stunning cinematic imagery, the outcome was to be expected. The Dothraki, in effect light cavalry (not heavily armored knights with lances) were overwhelmed and cut to ribbons. It would have been best to save them for a counterblow, an encircling maneuver ala Hannibal at Cannae, or some sort of coup de grace chase.

And what of the phalanxes of infantry spearheaded by the Unsullied and supported by Wildlings and Northmen? Why were they arrayed outside the castle? Would it not have been better to keep them back within the protection of the citadel manning the walls and preventing the Dead from climbing over the top? How much more effective of a defense would these soldiers have mounted by fighting from behind high battlements rather than out in the open plain facing an attacking force that greatly outnumbered them? (I guess the writers never considered the plight of the Union XI Corps at Gettysburg which, when compelled to defend flat, open terrain against superior numbers, was routed in an hour).

As for the flaming trench, it was a good idea. So why didn’t they dig several? They could have presented the Dead with not one but two or three rivers of fire to overcome. And each time they faced another burning moat, their advance would’ve been blunted and the defenders would’ve had the Dead right where they wanted them: exposed in the open and pinned against the flames in a stationary position. That would’ve been the moment for catapults, archers with flaming arrows, and, of course, two dragons to do their worst. And those who eventually would make it through the deathtraps then would’ve had to climb the high walls and face a rested, fully intact army ready to beat them back from behind the protection of stone battlements. (Oh, and no flaming oil guys?)

 
Ultimately none of this would have mattered anyway … not when it just took one assassin girl with a dragon glass dagger to end the combat with one stab. Given that, what was the use of all that sacrifice? The fiercest cavalry in Westeros was decimated while its most disciplined army severely bloodied. The bottom line is this: but for the pint-sized Arya Stark and her magic blade, Daenerys’ and Jon’s defense of Winterfell would have resulted in a massacre.

Not to be outdone in their blundering tactics, our aunt-nephew tag-team doubled down on stupidity. First they ignored Sansa’s sound advice and gave their bloodied and exhausted army no time to rest, resupply, or recover from wounds. Instead they marched and sailed pell-mell for King’s Landing.

Now, I’m not sure what military textbooks they were reading, but it’s usually advisable that when you go on the offensive you do some recon to get the lay of the land and find out what’s waiting for you out there over the hill. And along with well-placed spies and scouts, what’s the best way to gather intelligence of enemy strength and dispositions? Aerial reconnaissance. Oh well, this was the age before drones. Still, if only they had some sort of flying—hey! Wait a minute. Here’s an idea. Maybe Daenerys or Jon should’ve hopped on a dragon and done a fly-over of the area they planned on attacking. See what was in store for them like, oh I dunno, a Kracken fleet with giant dragon-killing cross-bows?

 
It’s also a good idea to remember what weapons your enemy possesses … Daenerys already knew the Lannisters had good anti-dragon technology from the attack on their wagon train when Bron almost took one out. (A cautionary reminder from Jamie before they set off would have been nice). One would expect that Cersei, and certainly Qyburn, would’ve had their masons feverishly constructing more of these dragon-killers … which they apparently did. So, given what she already knew about their ack-ack technology — and having already lost one to the Night King’s ground fire — why would Daenerys fly her two remaining dragons, her most precious military assets, just a few hundred feet off the ground when a thousand would’ve kept them well out of harm’s way and offered a much better prospect of the surrounding countryside and any nasty surprises awaiting her ships around the next bend?

Once Euron’s surprise attack was underway, and he’d taken out one dragon — half of his enemy’s air force — all Daenerys needed to do was fly her remaining dragon very high, mindful to stay out of range, and then swoop around the rear of the fleet and gone all “Dracarus!” on them. She must have seen from her vantage point that the cross-bows were only mounted on the bow of Euron’s ships, and thus were their sterns completely vulnerable. It’s not like the warships could’ve come about quicker than a dragon would’ve circled around the back and swooped in for the kill. I guess Daenerys never heard of the classic flanking maneuver as old as warfare itself?

So. The score stands at Common Sense 2, the Targaryen duo 0. Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. Even history’s greatest captains suffered defeats. Thus it’s my hope that team Targaryen will learn from their mistakes and fight the next battle only after a serious perusal of Sun-Tzu’s Art Of War. Otherwise my money’s on the Lannisters. We shall see.

I absolutely thought she was going to circle back and blow some serious flames on the rear ends of the fleet once she had cleared the assault. 

Get em next time.