Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 421812 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1635 on: May 06, 2019, 07:13:43 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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It wasn't a bad episode but there was a lot of cheesy stuff.
Things I didn't like. How quickly the dragon died. How Jamie got together with Sir Brieane. Jon needing to reveal his parents. Sansa being so anti Dany after the battle. Tyrion advising another seat and meet after death of the dragon. Bron just gets in with a bow and gets promised High garden.

Things I liked
Jamie leaving Brie was powerful. Arya turning down Gendry, he is his father's son. Euron on the sneak attack again (but it's unlikely to be possible unless he came out a cove/cave). Grey worm losing Mesiande but should have been at the seas attack. Dany losing her mind. Varys being himself. Tormond being love crushed and drunk.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1636 on: May 06, 2019, 08:00:35 AM »

Offline ederson

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I found the episode pretty good too. I agree that they are using lately a lot of clichés in order to talk to the emotion of the viewers... Unfortunately that is not the G Martin way.

I like the way Danny turns into mad queen. Completely strange that she didn't see Euron but consistent with the turn the storytelling has taken.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1637 on: May 06, 2019, 08:37:17 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Dany has already turned heel.  She’s super selfish. She doesn’t have a valid claim to the throne anymore but she wants Jon to keep the truth a secret so she can be in charge.  It’s silly.  Time for her to die.

She's not a heel just yet if only because Jon doesn't want the throne and does want her to have it, so her motives are still consistent with his.

They are of course very obviously laying the groundwork for her to cross those lines in front of him by dragon-nuking King's Landing.  Guessing she'll use the Harrenhal maneuver from the books (and show?) where she flies Drogon as high as possible then comes straight down on top of them. If she gets ahold of Jaime she may murder him in front of Cersei too, which would be hugely upsetting to everyone else in the Battle of Winterfell.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1638 on: May 06, 2019, 08:39:56 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.

Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.

Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.

About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.

Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.

Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
I don't think that is the case at all.  If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter.  She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised.  The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King.  This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny.  It just doesn't make sense.  And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King.  The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain.  The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things.  They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1639 on: May 06, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Dany has already turned heel.  She’s super selfish. She doesn’t have a valid claim to the throne anymore but she wants Jon to keep the truth a secret so she can be in charge.  It’s silly.  Time for her to die.
It's not a bad story line to have Dany's world come crashing down on her but things just seem too rushed.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1640 on: May 06, 2019, 09:33:18 AM »

Offline Sophomore

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The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.

Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.

Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.

About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.

Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.

Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
I don't think that is the case at all.  If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter.  She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised.  The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King.  This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny.  It just doesn't make sense.  And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King.  The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain.  The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things.  They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.

Sometimes they do things for drama's sake, but I'm not sure this is a good example. Isn't it a theme of the books and the show alike that prophecies are difficult to interpret? A good example is the reveal by Missandei midway through that something everyone "knows" to be true just reflects a mistranslation - Azor Ahai is not necessarily the "prince" who was promised, and may actually refer to a princess. In GoT world as in ours, people  believe they understand the true meaning of a prophecy but in fact they've misunderstood it. And who knows; the prophecies may be wrong or may not apply to the situation at hand. 

To me, that's central to the show and the books. I continue to wonder why Jon has such a central role in the books; how does his story end? The fact it wasn't what people first expected, to me, fits right in.

And I think Melisandre's arc is consistent. She did believe that Stannis was the prince who was promised. Despite her magic, her age, and her gifts, we see that even she misunderstood what she was being told - or perhaps the Lord of Light was even playing a game with her. She was wrong; it's critical to the character and the story. Why should we be sure we know what the prophecy means or even if it's right?

As for Arya, my interpretation is not that Melisandre "foresaw" Arya killing the NK from the beginning, but that she got wisps and pieces that she misinterpreted at first but later put together correctly. She saw on first meeting Arya that Arya would close many eyes; much later, in Winterfell, when she sees Beric fall and realizes he's served his purpose, she puts the pieces together and thinks, maybe for the first time, that there may be a new possibility.



« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:09:04 AM by Sophomore »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1641 on: May 06, 2019, 09:45:12 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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I’m very surprised people find this season interesting. I think they’ve ruined the show.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1642 on: May 06, 2019, 09:51:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.

Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.

Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.

About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.

Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.

Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
I don't think that is the case at all.  If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter.  She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised.  The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King.  This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny.  It just doesn't make sense.  And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King.  The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain.  The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things.  They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.

Sometimes they do things for drama's sake, but I'm not sure this is a good example. Isn't it a theme of the books and the show alike that prophecies are difficult to interpret? A good example is the reveal by Missandei midway through that something everyone "knows" to be true just reflects a mistranslation - Azor Ahai is not necessarily the "prince" who was promised, and may actually refer to a princess. In GoT world as in ours, people  believe they understand the true meaning of a prophecy but in fact they've misunderstood it. And who knows; the prophecies may be wrong or may not apply to the situation at hand. 

To me, that's central to the show and the books. I continue to wonder why Jon has such a central role in the books; how does his story end? The fact it wasn't what people first expected, to me, fits right in.

And I think Melisandre's arc is consistent. She did believe that Stannis was the prince who was promised. Despite her magic, her age, and her gifts, we see that even she misunderstood what she was being told - or perhaps the Lord of Light was even playing a game with her. She was wrong; it's critical to the character and the story.

As for Arya, my interpretation is not that Melisandre "foresaw" Arya killing the NK from the beginning, but that she got wisps and pieces that she misinterpreted at first but later put together correctly. She saw on first meeting Arya that Arya would close many eyes; much later, in Winterfell, when she sees Beric fall and realizes he's served his purpose, she puts the pieces together and thinks, maybe for the first time, that there may be a new possibility.
That just doesn't fit with the books at all.  The show pretty clearly changed this point, probably for dramatic effect, maybe because of the more modern viewpoint regarding women, or maybe because they just didn't want Jon to have everything go right for him, or some combination thereof.  And it just doesn't fit and Arya certainly doesn't fit the actual prophecy at all.  The prophecy quite simply isn't about Arya Stark. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1643 on: May 06, 2019, 10:20:11 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.

And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.


Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1644 on: May 06, 2019, 10:37:34 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Lol



Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1645 on: May 06, 2019, 10:54:51 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.

And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.

I think it's an interesting take and one of the running themes of the show is that for a world that was originally pretty low fantasy basically every religious faith appears to be correct about the existence of their god(s), except, oddly enough, the one most people in Westeros follow. 

It's easy to stretch the idea too far to excuse storytelling flaws but I've always liked stories that don't feel a need to fully explain everything to viewers (one reason I was more forgiving of Lost than most). The idea of prophecies genuinely being divine but intentionally flawed or even wrong, but wrong in a way that leads people to do what the gods want, I think holds up pretty well.

Basically Satan broke out of Hell and God, but a much more primal and wild one than we tend to use, mobilized people to stop him, using every means at its disposal, including deceiving/misleading them.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 11:01:11 AM by fairweatherfan »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1646 on: May 06, 2019, 11:16:52 AM »

Offline CptZoogs

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Lol



Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.

It’s “the macchiato that was promised”!

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1647 on: May 06, 2019, 11:17:11 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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Lol



Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.
Well, if she didn’t notice an entire fleet waiting for here from the sky with her dragon, I’m not really surprised she didn’t see a Starbucks cup on the table right in front of her.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1648 on: May 06, 2019, 11:23:01 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.

And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.
Just doesn't seem plausible.  Seems far more likely the show just gave up on that prophecy and that if Martin does ever finish the books, Jon will in fact kill the Night King and fulfill the prophecy. 

To that point, I almost think Martin has been sitting on the books waiting for the show to finish.  I mean he has already released something like 12 chapters at various points for the next book.  I just don't see him releasing that many chapters if he wasn't done with the book (maybe some final editing choices, but basically done).  I also think he has most of the final book written in at least some format.  I really think he just didn't want to spoil the show by releasing the books.  I expect book 6 will come out in early 2020 before the prequels start airing. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1649 on: May 06, 2019, 11:48:26 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I’m very surprised people find this season interesting. I think they’ve ruined the show.


It's interesting in the way a slow motion car wreck is interesting.


I can't recall watching a show for this long only for the seams to start showing so plainly in the final season. 

At this point it feels to me like they're just trying desperately to get to the finish line, no matter how much of a mess they make in getting there.


This is a "land the plane even if all that's left is smoldering debris" sort of final season.
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