A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[PhoSita]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

Funny thing about stories -- how effective the ending is depends a great deal on how the storyteller gets there.

Is the ending earned or not?  Does it fit with what came before it?  Do the narrative threads and themes developed early in the story come to a satisfying, comprehensible, and organic conclusion?


I'm not sure anybody was "rooting" for the Night King.  Is anybody surprised that humanity defeated the Night King?  The point was never whether they would win, the point was how they would get there.

[fairweatherfan]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.

Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.

[PhoSita]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.

Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.

I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.

[hpantazo]

My biggest disappointment from Episode 3 is that they didn't give any info regarding the purpose of the Night King and the White Walkers. Basically, they built them up for 7 and a half seasons, and then kill them all off with no explanation of why they existed, what they wanted, who the Night King really was, etc. They needed a lot more depth to this storyline than they provided.

[fairweatherfan]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.

Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.

I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.

The other theory with even less evidence was that Bran was warging into different wights in the battle to help his family.  Which would also be interesting! And also definitely didn't happen, he was just off reveling in the power of being six birds.

My dumb alternative fanfic resolution is that Jon and some other characters manage to take down or drive off the dragon - maybe someone could even die! - but are still stymied by most of the White Walkers coming after them. But that leaves the Night King more exposed for Arya and still the same ending, just more cohesive.

Along those same lines this is just a terrific summary of the absurdity of it all (note: there's briefly swear words on the screen for those at work): https://twitter.com/iiTerrific/status/1123968397937659912

[GreenShooter]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

TP. It makes sense to me, especially since we know how stealth Arya is.

[nickagneta]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

Funny thing about stories -- how effective the ending is depends a great deal on how the storyteller gets there.

Is the ending earned or not?  Does it fit with what came before it?  Do the narrative threads and themes developed early in the story come to a satisfying, comprehensible, and organic conclusion?

All that is subjective. What I am saying is, the storyteller tells the story and it  ends the way the storyteller tells it. And people act based on that.

What I see happening is that people who love the series for the series, love the storytelling. Most people I know, loved last season and the payoff of who Jon Snow really was. Yet many of the "informed" fans have done nothing but pan on it.

Most people I know aren't GoT fans that are going through the internet to fan sites, discussing it on Reddit, and trying to go through every portion of it making sure every single last detail and prophecy is fulfilled in a satisfying manner. Those people, I am sorry, are in the mass minority. They are probably a very, very small amount of the 12 million people who watch every week.

I had a ton of family and friends comment about the darkness of the episode but other than that really loved the rollercoaster emotional ride that last episode was. I know the people I was watching it with started cheering when Arya finally killed the Night King. There wasn't the consternation that I see pouring forth from the "informed" fans I have seen on the internet.

[Roy H.]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.

Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.

I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.

Yeah. I like the theory, and it would have been much more satisfying. I just think it was unlikely the intent.

[slamtheking]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.

Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.

I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.

Yeah. I like the theory, and it would have been much more satisfying. I just think it was unlikely the intent.

agreed.  if there had been something like this occurring, it would have explained a lot of what happened at the end that appears to make no sense.  It should have been clear enough during the initial showing but if it has to be seen a second time to see it occur, I could live with that as a viewer but it shows poor direction IMHO.   if there's nothing tangible supporting this theory no matter how many times the episode is viewed, the ending of the episode was a genuine letdown in the sense that Arya killing the NK was just too convenient.

[PhoSita]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

Funny thing about stories -- how effective the ending is depends a great deal on how the storyteller gets there.

Is the ending earned or not?  Does it fit with what came before it?  Do the narrative threads and themes developed early in the story come to a satisfying, comprehensible, and organic conclusion?

All that is subjective. What I am saying is, the storyteller tells the story and it  ends the way the storyteller tells it. And people act based on that.

What I see happening is that people who love the series for the series, love the storytelling. Most people I know, loved last season and the payoff of who Jon Snow really was. Yet many of the "informed" fans have done nothing but pan on it.

Most people I know aren't GoT fans that are going through the internet to fan sites, discussing it on Reddit, and trying to go through every portion of it making sure every single last detail and prophecy is fulfilled in a satisfying manner. Those people, I am sorry, are in the mass minority. They are probably a very, very small amount of the 12 million people who watch every week.

I had a ton of family and friends comment about the darkness of the episode but other than that really loved the rollercoaster emotional ride that last episode was. I know the people I was watching it with started cheering when Arya finally killed the Night King. There wasn't the consternation that I see pouring forth from the "informed" fans I have seen on the internet.

People can choose to engage with popular culture at whatever level they prefer.  I agree with that. 

Those people you know who really enjoyed the episode, who cheered when Arya killed NK -- they're not wrong.  I'm not saying they shouldn't have enjoyed the episode.

That doesn't mean I have to agree that GoT has done a good job telling this last stretch of the story.



People enjoy cheesy, poorly written stuff all the time, just like people enjoy cheesy, processed food all the time.  I'm not above doing so, either.


What you're saying reminds me of when people respond to criticism of any piece of sci/fi or fantasy by saying "Who cares if it makes sense, it's all made up anyway."

That's fine if you, or anybody else, feels that way.  But all it says to me is that you don't really take the genre seriously, you just think it's fun.  Fluff.  Which is your prerogative, but it's not how the show itself styles itself.


GoT is a show that has garnered its popularity based on presenting itself as a serious, prestige drama, albeit one set in a medieval fantasy world.  GoT clearly wants to be regarded as a show that is serious about creating its world, developing its cast of characters, and telling its story.  They're not just trying to make a spectacle that people will enjoy in the moment.  They want to make something with depth that will stand the test of time and reside in the pantheon of all time great television shows.

I think it's fair to engage with the show on its own terms, i.e. to take it seriously enough to be critical of how the whole is constructed.

[Big333223]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.

Yep. That didn't read at all.

I know this was a big, huge, complicated episode so I don't want to say it was poorly directed but there were some big, glaring problems.

I spent too much of the episode thinking, "Where are the dragons?" and then when they showed up I was mostly confused about which dragon I was looking at and what it was supposed to be doing.

The geography of winterfell was not well laid out so I had no idea where Jon Snow was in relation to Bran.

How Arya got to the Night King was not well established. It's great that it was a surprise and it was a good surprise but without seeding it properly it felt a little anticlimactic.

The best part of the episode was the first 20 minutes or so. Built a lot of tension and creating some really striking images. The middle bit with Arya sneaking around the castle was also good. I mean, overall it was a good episode but probably could've been 10 minutes shorter and not lost anything.

[Sophomore]

For my money this episode was 10x better than last one.

[Jiri Welsch]

For my money this episode was 10x better than last one.

Same. Good episode and left you thinking about what’s next

[BringToughnessBack]

As always over the past few seasons, I rewatch the last episode right before going into the new one. To my surprise, I enjoyed the "dark" war episode about a hundred times more the second time around and for some unknown reason, the quality of the picture seemed more clear(not sure if they adjusted something due to complaints) and I could see everything rather clearly. It was a good episode worth a 2nd watch for sure.

Tonight's was a good one as well. I was not expecting to even see some of the characters that were present tonight so that was a suprise as was other things I was totally not expecting even though when they happened, it clicked on episodes past.

[Sophomore]

One more thought: a virtue of keeping the body count down last episode is that there are more characters left on the board to put at risk or kill...