A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[PhoSita]

    All those armies and all those brilliant fighters and all of Bran’s foresight weren’t enough. In the end Arya basically wins the whole war all on her own with a plan she came up with all on her own (after receiving a hint from Melisandre). We have no on-screen indication that the Night King was weakened from his battle against Jon and Dany, nor do we have any indication that the only reason Arya could pull off this move is because of the battle she was just taking part in.

    If our heroes had watched Episode 3 ahead of time it seems as though their best plan would legitimately have been to send the Dothraki south, stuff as many people into the crypts as possible (well-armed) and leave the gates of Winterfell wide open with Bran in the Godswood. Then tell Arya to hide in the Godswood (like she presumably did in Episode 3 after her chat with Mel) and ambush the Night King when he arrived to kill Bran. It would have been the exact same outcome, but that thousands of people would still be alive.

    And the result is that the show's big theme of humanity working together ‘we all have to put aside our distrust and fight together against the army of the dead’ is completely undermined.

Bran did not take this dagger when given a chance earlier in the season, so maybe he foresaw it, and maybe it was his plan after all.

https://mashable.com/article/game-of-thrones-arya-valyrian-dagger-night-king-explained/

So there is that and sorry to bust your theory.

Not sure how that matters?  Even accepting your premise, it would mean that Bran formulated a plan on his own, which he did not relate to anybody else, and Arya, formulating a plan on her own without telling anybody else, was able to kill the NK because of the dagger Bran gave her.


So all of that other stuff just feels like much ado about nothing.  It created the illusion of an epic story but for the most part it didn't go anywhere, at least as far as the Night King plotline was concerned.

Really, you could have had a show that entirely focused on their journeys to reach that moment with the Night King and you would have had all the information and emotional resonance you needed, because they were the only ones who had anything to do with defeating him.  And of course hardly anybody of significance was even killed by the Night King, so there wasn't actually much of a point to all the build up in Episode 2 about how they were all anticipating their potential demise.



I think that's why I keep coming back to how the end of "The Long Night" felt like something from a Marvel movie to me.  Because it caused so much that came before it seem as though it were part of a story about a single heroic person with superpowers, instead of the struggle of an entire civilization comprised of disparate factions led by flawed leaders to come together to thwart an existential threat.

[nickagneta]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

[Celtics4ever]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.   

[nickagneta]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.

[fairweatherfan]

So really the only moving thing about the episode in retrospect is how "cool" it is that Arya killed the Night King.  Sure, it's a satisfying culmination to her storyline, but very little of what got us to that moment in the episode really seems consequential.  Except insofar as the dead killing off most of Dany's armies will affect the coming conflict with Cersei.

Point of order - it *was* a cool moment.

Agree that they had the moment in mind and just worked backwards from it. They really struggled to bring together all the different individual and group elements in the battle so they had them all do cool stuff and it never really cohered.

The backwards strategy stuff is silly, because everyone would do things differently if they could see the future. But I agree with the idea that it was constructed in a way where none of the major narrative of humanity coming together against the dead really seemed to matter EXCEPT in that it further empowered Dany and probably eventually Jon, which will matter quite a bit now. The best thing you can say in the battle itself is that the armies slowed down the Night King enough and Jon and Dany got him separated enough from his dragon to provide an opening for Arya to get to him. But the "Dany+Jon get stronger then weaker" thread of events felt very detached from the "beating the Night King" thread. 

[fairweatherfan]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Agree on the added depth, but the lack of teleportation is one of the big reasons why the books keep taking longer and longer to do. The original plan was a 5 year timeskip but that didn't work; then Dany was stuck in Meereen and he had to figure out how to untangle that part. Now he's got a billion different elements to resolve - he literally can't keep track of it all, there's a couple superfans he consults with - in a couple of books. Part of why I don't expect he'll finish the series before he dies and they'll outsource it to someone else based on his notes.

[Moranis]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.

This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8

[fairweatherfan]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.

This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8

Thank god they didn't go with the Jon-Arya incest angle although the one they did pick is arguably worse. But there's still time!

[nickagneta]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Agree on the added depth, but the lack of teleportation is one of the big reasons why the books keep taking longer and longer to do. The original plan was a 5 year timeskip but that didn't work; then Dany was stuck in Meereen and he had to figure out how to untangle that part. Now he's got a billion different elements to resolve - he literally can't keep track of it all, there's a couple superfans he consults with - in a couple of books. Part of why I don't expect he'll finish the series before he dies and they'll outsource it to someone else based on his notes.

Yikes....not another Robert Jordan situation. Funny. I started reading Game of Thrones, the book just before A Clash of Kings came out. I have been waiting for him to finish this series for over 20 years. I think I have read what's out 3-4 times over those two decades. And yet, I am still waiting on the last couple books even though the television show has finished the tale.

The books are so much better. Martin is a master story teller. There is only so much detail, depth and historic context you can get in 10 hours of television(1 season) versus 1200 pages of text(1 book).

[fairweatherfan]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Agree on the added depth, but the lack of teleportation is one of the big reasons why the books keep taking longer and longer to do. The original plan was a 5 year timeskip but that didn't work; then Dany was stuck in Meereen and he had to figure out how to untangle that part. Now he's got a billion different elements to resolve - he literally can't keep track of it all, there's a couple superfans he consults with - in a couple of books. Part of why I don't expect he'll finish the series before he dies and they'll outsource it to someone else based on his notes.

Yikes....not another Robert Jordan situation. Funny. I started reading Game of Thrones, the book just before A Clash of Kings came out. I have been waiting for him to finish this series for over 20 years. I think I have read what's out 3-4 times over those two decades. And yet, I am still waiting on the last couple books even though the television show has finished the tale.

The books are so much better. Martin is a master story teller. There is only so much detail, depth and historic context you can get in 10 hours of television(1 season) versus 1200 pages of text(1 book).

I like them in their own way - the show's had to make more compromises on plot, background and effects but it'll be the memorable one in the end. Won't be long before most think the books are adaptations of the show. And while it's easy to compare the real ending of the show with what we imagine the end of the books will be and find it lacking, if the books can stick the landing - if they even ever resolve the plot at all - remains to be seen.

One major advantage of the show - it doesn't leave fans with a last image of Dany having diarrhea in the grassland for 8 years and counting.

[Moranis]

Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.

I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.

I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.

I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.

This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8

Thank god they didn't go with the Jon-Arya incest angle although the one they did pick is arguably worse. But there's still time!

Well it is he.  That was Martin's original idea that he sent around to publishers.  He obviously adapted it and changed it over time, but I think it gives a pretty good idea of what this story is about. 

[Celtics4ever]

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all

He hired one to help keep him straight on he story line though, did you know that?

https://www.businessinsider.com/george-rr-martin-hired-superfans-fact-check-game-of-thrones-2015-4

[Moranis]

Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all

He hired one to help keep him straight on he story line though, did you know that?

https://www.businessinsider.com/george-rr-martin-hired-superfans-fact-check-game-of-thrones-2015-4

And Martin hasn't yet shown that he has ignored any of the prophecies or history in the books.  Granted the prophecies mostly haven't been fulfilled yet in his books, but his writing has stayed true to them thus far.

[Roy H.]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

[PhoSita]

Was this what we were supposed to observe?

Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.

Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.

In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.

Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/

If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.