A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Phantom255x]

Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.

That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?

If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.

Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.

After all, the night is dark and full of terror.

I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions.  Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...

I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.

Sending them off without any idea what was out there, and without any support from dragons, ground troops, or ranged weapons was pretty hard to figure. And that wasn’t even the worst of it.

Here’s a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY

Yeah that made no sense to me. It was night and already hard to see. And you just sent them out there to face enemies they'd never seen before? I don't even think they saw the army while charging, it was only when they first collided with them that they realized "OH NO" and then of course they got clobbered.

I could understand maybe sending a small portion of them out there but the entire group? Wow. Tough way to go. Are there any more Dothraki left anywhere??

[RodyTur10]

Just watched the episode, and wow, what a garbage ending that made no sense whatsoever, and basically just threw away 7 season worth of build-up. Rather would have let the Night King win than what actually happened.

TP. I completely agree.

And does anybody know or has it been explained anywhere WHY the Night King wanted to bring the long night and seemingly kill whole humanity. What is his motivation? And why now, while he must have existed for thousands of years?

And will Jon Snow be deposed as King of the North? His tactics as military leader to let the cavalry (the Dothraki) start with a frontal attack on the army of the dead was again questionable to say the least. How does the fact that you're literally fighting the dead not become a factor in your strategy? How can you approach this as a normal battle? Didn't make any sense.

You can't demoralize the enemy or cause them to retreat. They will just keep coming and coming. What you want to do is preserve as many lives as possible, while being able to effectively fight the dead from entering Winterfell.

Who do you need to kill? The White Walkers and above all the Night King! Don't get your army in open battle with these wights. How could you ever destroy the enemy in that way? Snow (and others) have seen with their own eyes how the Night King can resurrect them and there were too many of them anyway.

[tazzmaniac]

Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.

That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?

If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.

Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.

After all, the night is dark and full of terror.

I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions.  Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...

I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.

Sending them off without any idea what was out there, and without any support from dragons, ground troops, or ranged weapons was pretty hard to figure. And that wasn’t even the worst of it.

Here’s a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY

Yeah that made no sense to me. It was night and already hard to see. And you just sent them out there to face enemies they'd never seen before? I don't even think they saw the army while charging, it was only when they first collided with them that they realized "OH NO" and then of course they got clobbered.

I could understand maybe sending a small portion of them out there but the entire group? Wow. Tough way to go. Are there any more Dothraki left anywhere??

I agree the Dothraki charge, especially at night, didn't make sense.  They didn't even know Melisandre was going to show up and light their blades.  It would have made more sense to have the dead hit the infantry troops first and then have the Dothraki attack from the flank.  Or a better plan would have been to have the Dothraki in hiding.  Let the dead pass and then have the Dothraki make a made dash to try to take out the White Walkers.  Of course the winter weather that the Night King created would have thwarted the attempt but it would have been a better plan.  If you were going to do a straight out charge where were the Knights of the Vale?  Their Heavy Calvary would have a better chance to break through than the Dothraki. 

After this battle, Dany's forces have been decimated.  Dothraki wiped out and most of the Unsullied killed too.  She's lucky she still has two dragons.  She's going to be very dependent on Jon and Sansa getting the Northmen and Vale support. 

[slamtheking]

ok - just saw the episode and had the following thoughts:
- Thought for sure there’s be some major characters killed but nope.  Only person that died that provided a moment of sadness was Lady Mormont.  Liked that kid.  Puts today’s youth to shame
- A lot of close escapes that were far too convenient.
- Filmed way too dark.  Couldn’t make out half of what was going on.
- Not following the point of Bran warging into the ravens unless it was solely for the purpose of luring in the Night King because he knew what Arya would do.  Even with that, there was a lot of time warging that wasn’t shown.  What was up with that
- By the end of the battle, it looked like no one but the main characters were left standing yet the preview for next week showed a fair number of Unsullied left.  Where’d they come from? 
- Preview of next week also showed both dragons, how is it only one made an effort to save Dany.  I’d think both were tied to her even if Jon is riding one.
- The Dothraki charge made no sense whatsoever.  seems the sole purpose was to crush the spirit of the living when all the swordfire was extinguished.

[Celtics4ever]

And will Jon Snow be deposed as King of the North? His tactics as military leader to let the cavalry (the Dothraki) start with a frontal attack on the army of the dead was again questionable to say the least. How does the fact that you're literally fighting the dead not become a factor in your strategy? How can you approach this as a normal battle? Didn't make any sense.

The writer of the show and this director don't really understand tactics or the like.  The Battle of the Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. stuff was nonsense, this battle was nonsense.   It is a show but the show suffers due to their profound ignorance to some degree.  What they are good at is the Hollywood Stuff but as I said above, this crap is not Martin and the lack of him as a writer shows.

Here’s a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY

Very shalllow tactical analysis and completely wrong in tactics.   

If one studies history, cavalry was often on the wings  of the army.   None of the branches of the military really does great without support from the others.   Cavalry needs support, as horse tire quickly and get blown fast in a battle.  There are different types of cavalry too.   Light Cavalry is great at harassing and pursuing a beaten enemy for example, the Dothraki don't wear armor so I would assume them to be light cavalry.  Heavy Cavalry would be the Knights of Westeros and charge hose.   Archers need the infantry to protect them.  Infantry are strong but can be slow in battle and can hold off cavalry if discipline but will get devasted if caught unprepared and undisciplined by Cavalry.   But they need each other to thrive on the battlefield.

A real tactical master would have had the Dothraki use dragonglass arrows to slow the dead as horse archers.  In the books Khal Drogo has a bow, too.    They would not make contact but shoot and move to weaken the dead horde thinning their ranks as they lead them back to castle staying outside of harm's way.   The pike men would have set up behind the barrier with archers with the dragonglass arrows on the walls covering them with all the tough fighters who were out in front on the walls to repulse the dead.   The artillery would have been in the castle or on the castle walls.  Once the dead was compressed into the area of the barrier and pikes then the dragonfire would have been more deadly.  Castle walls would have been much stronger with more men on the walls.

The show guys just want to entertain us, Jon as shown in the show and the battle of the Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.s is incompetent save for the Battle of Castle Black which he did well when he took command but that was Martin.   

The real value of cavalry is shock from the force of the attack and the psychological fear of being trampled.   The latter would not have been a factor against the dead.  But horse archers with dragonglass would have been deadly. 

One has to realize that they were trying to create survival horror in this episode and are amateurs at history and tactics.

[Moranis]

ok - just saw the episode and had the following thoughts:
- Thought for sure there’s be some major characters killed but nope.  Only person that died that provided a moment of sadness was Lady Mormont.  Liked that kid.  Puts today’s youth to shame
- A lot of close escapes that were far too convenient.
- Filmed way too dark.  Couldn’t make out half of what was going on.
- Not following the point of Bran warging into the ravens unless it was solely for the purpose of luring in the Night King because he knew what Arya would do.  Even with that, there was a lot of time warging that wasn’t shown.  What was up with that
- By the end of the battle, it looked like no one but the main characters were left standing yet the preview for next week showed a fair number of Unsullied left.  Where’d they come from? 
- Preview of next week also showed both dragons, how is it only one made an effort to save Dany.  I’d think both were tied to her even if Jon is riding one.
- The Dothraki charge made no sense whatsoever.  seems the sole purpose was to crush the spirit of the living when all the swordfire was extinguished.

Rhaegal was injured by Viseron.  That is why he wasn't there with Jon at the end of the episode.  Presumably he flew off somewhere to avoid the dead.

[Redz]

Do the dragons have a limited supply of fire in their lungs?

I’d have been way more proactive with spraying the flames down on the bad guys.

[nickagneta]

And will Jon Snow be deposed as King of the North? His tactics as military leader to let the cavalry (the Dothraki) start with a frontal attack on the army of the dead was again questionable to say the least. How does the fact that you're literally fighting the dead not become a factor in your strategy? How can you approach this as a normal battle? Didn't make any sense.

The writer of the show and this director don't really understand tactics or the like.  The Battle of the **** stuff was nonsense, this battle was nonsense.   It is a show but the show suffers due to their profound ignorance to some degree.  What they are good at is the Hollywood Stuff but as I said above, this crap is not Martin and the lack of him as a writer shows.

Here’s a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY

Very shalllow tactical analysis and completely wrong in tactics.   

If one studies history, cavalry was often on the wings  of the army.   None of the branches of the military really does great without support from the others.   Cavalry needs support, as horse tire quickly and get blown fast in a battle.  There are different types of cavalry too.   Light Cavalry is great at harassing and pursuing a beaten enemy for example, the Dothraki don't wear armor so I would assume them to be light cavalry.  Heavy Cavalry would be the Knights of Westeros and charge hose.   Archers need the infantry to protect them.  Infantry are strong but can be slow in battle and can hold off cavalry if discipline but will get devasted if caught unprepared and undisciplined by Cavalry.   But they need each other to thrive on the battlefield.

A real tactical master would have had the Dothraki use dragonglass arrows to slow the dead as horse archers.  In the books Khal Drogo has a bow, too.    They would not make contact but shoot and move to weaken the dead horde thinning their ranks as they lead them back to castle staying outside of harm's way.   The pike men would have set up behind the barrier with archers with the dragonglass arrows on the walls covering them with all the tough fighters who were out in front on the walls to repulse the dead.   The artillery would have been in the castle or on the castle walls.  Once the dead was compressed into the area of the barrier and pikes then the dragonfire would have been more deadly.  Castle walls would have been much stronger with more men on the walls.

The show guys just want to entertain us, Jon as shown in the show and the battle of the ****s is incompetent save for the Battle of Castle Black which he did well when he took command but that was Martin.   

The real value of cavalry is shock from the force of the attack and the psychological fear of being trampled.   The latter would not have been a factor against the dead.  But horse archers with dragonglass would have been deadly. 

One has to realize that they were trying to create survival horror in this episode and are amateurs at history and tactics.

Once they closed Winterfell after the retreat I know they had the trenches dug with pitch on the bottom to light but I couldn't understand why they didn't have pitch on the ramparts to pour on the undead and set afire. That's normal siege tactics for that time.

Now maybe they had limited tar or maybe Winterfell was made of wood and not stone on the exterior walls but I thought they were stone.

Also, where was the town that was outside Winterfell like in the books and in season 1? Just disappeared over time I guess.

Martin is a student of history and he intensely researched the War of the Roses, the politics and society of the time and how man waged war during those Medieval times. His description of the Battle of Kings Landing and the tactics to defend it were brilliant in the books.

I think when the books come out there are going to be much better timelines, descriptions of battles and strategies, and a lot of the unanswered questions the last two seasons created will be explained.

[Redz]

I still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up.  I found her to be one of the  better story lines in the books.

[RLewis35]

Here’s my off the wall prediction for the ending:

While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.

I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).

This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.

[fairweatherfan]

The Dothraki charge made no sense whatsoever.  seems the sole purpose was to crush the spirit of the living when all the swordfire was extinguished.

I think the showrunners fell into a common trap where they had certain moments they wanted - the fiery charge with the lights flickering out, Beric's sacrifice, the Night King shrugging off dragonfire, Arya getting the Night King - and kinda wrote backwards from that, contorting the plot around the need to arrive at those points. The Dothraki charge and lights flickering out looked cool as hell and was an emotional highlight but made no practical sense.That's a tradeoff an entertainment product is usually gonna make.

Here’s my off the wall prediction for the ending:

While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.

I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).

This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.

This is a really interesting theory that would probably be a lot of fun to watch. But my feeling is it will be very different. Martin wrote this as a response to Lord of the Rings being too detached from practical considerations - the way he put it was like "what would Aragorn's tax policy be?" and was very interested in the Scouring of the Shire stuff where the main villain is beaten but there's still real fallout from it. 

So I think we just had the killing Sauron good defeats evil moment and now the mystical stuff will fade as the characters deal with the real world fallout. Most notably between Dany + Jon and Dany + Cersei but it'll be time to pay the piper on a lot of the grudges that were mostly set aside to kill the Night King.

However also keep in mind I'm wrong about like everything lol.

[Celtics4ever]

I still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up.  I found her to be one of the  better story lines in the books.

Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.

I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.

[Csfan1984]

Do the dragons have a limited supply of fire in their lungs?

I’d have been way more proactive with spraying the flames down on the bad guys.

Or even spraying Viseryon. Like they bite him repeatedly instead of just using fire. Unless the dragon was immune to fire we never saw it.

[Redz]

I still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up.  I found her to be one of the  better story lines in the books.

Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.

I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.

She wasn't super likable, but I was intrigued to see what her role would be I. Coming back from the ultimate obscurity. 

[Moranis]

I still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up.  I found her to be one of the  better story lines in the books.

Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.

I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.

She wasn't super likable, but I was intrigued to see what her role would be I. Coming back from the ultimate obscurity.

She was an awful person when she was alive as well.  She almost by herself led to the downfall of the Starks.