A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Moranis]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.

You don't need the lords to rule.  At least not in their current form.  They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power.  Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting.  If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords. 

As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden.  So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well.  Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her.  Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges.  Dany won a battle not the war.  Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros.  He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle.  Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her. 

Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment.  Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people.  She'd be trying to make things better.   

Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son.  Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings.  He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings.  Then Jon makes a deal with them.  Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer.  Jon could have easily spared Olly.  He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.

The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee.  That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom.  It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either.  And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible.  Dany has always been a villain.  It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain.  This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute.  they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.

Olly was a traitor.  He was part of a mutiny.  There isn't any way he could be spared.  They all had to die.

Your just wrong about Dany in the show and the books.  Heck in the books Dany was 13 when she was forced to marry Khal Drogo.  Danny freeing the slaves in three cities even though it actually impeded her Iron Throne quest shows your wrongness.

as I said always a villain which as I also said the show was going to accelerate.

[Sophomore]

Good episode. The wheel keeps turning. Tyrion and Jon’s sentimentality killed those people.

[Moranis]

Incredible episode.

really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that  quickly just too fast

[Sophomore]

Incredible episode.

really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that  quickly just too fast

Was it really that fast? She had been brooding for days, seen all who were close to her die or betray her - was rejected as a lover by Jon, whom she truly loved. The moment when she turned was, to me, the right moment. The battle was won and she was faced with the choice: let the anger drain out of her (they'd just been shooting those darts at her) and take a clean victory -- or kill them all, and make them pay as she had paid.

This is a desire she had rationalized, too, by her speech about needing fear to rule because she had no love. At that moment, really, she didn’t need to do any more - fear was well and truly earned. That wasn’t her motive, or not her paramount motive.

[Jiri Welsch]

Sansa for Iron Throne!

[PAOBoston]

Just awful.

2 years they took off and this is what we get. So predictable and so sad. We’ve invested so many years into this show and the ending will be just abysmal.

[nickagneta]

Incredible episode.

really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that  quickly just too fast

In Westeros time, it took a while. When Jon rejected Dany, just before he said it would be two weeks(a fortnight) for the troops to get to King's Landing. Plus, it was said she had locked herself up for days prior to her meeting with Tyrion.

So though it happened quick on screen, in story time she had been brooding about this since Winterfell which was probably a month to two months from when she decided to go nuclear.

The whole problem with the last two seasons has been that there was just a lot of time between events but the show made it seem like no time had passed. It's not until you hear the one line in an episode that puts the timeline in place, that many miss, that you see the full timeline. Dany had been brewing about her decision for months.

[Kuberski33]

I thought it was good. Danny's the daughter of the mad King, was headed toward a turn and wreaking total carnage on Kings Landing, killing tons of innocents and going scorched earth is right in line with where this was headed.  I do think the last 2 seasons have been too rushed to the point where this was headed towards a Lost comparison. I also didn't like Episode 4 at all and how they just dismissed the the night king in one battle. 

But tonight it got back on track in a pretty solid manner. 

[Sophomore]

I thought it was good. Danny's the daughter of the mad King, was headed toward a turn and wreaking total carnage on Kings Landing, killing tons of innocents and going scorched earth is right in line with where this was headed.  I do think the last 2 seasons have been too rushed to the point where this was headed towards a Lost comparison. I also didn't like Episode 4 at all and how they just dismissed the the night king in one battle. 

But tonight it got back on track in a pretty solid manner.

Agree about tonight. I was thinking after the NK battle that they chose to keep the main characters alive because they wanted to put them at risk/kill them in the real climax - the battle among the humans. And hoo boy, did they.

What I wonder about now is what it will mean that the Lord of Light brought Jon back. While the show has (apparently) abandoned or at least minimized some prophecies, it did seem to treat Beric and the Red Lady very purposefully. They did what the Lord of Light had them there to do, and then quickly they died.

What's Jon there to do? The obvious answer is: kill Dany or at least rule. After tonight I'll be surprised if it's that clean, but we'll see.

[jpotter33]

Clegane Bowl!!

But I do have to echo the disappointment with others. While the story has definitely been rushed this season and there have been some plot holes and questionable decisions - e.g. significant plot armor being chief among them, but also no non-Night King White Walker action in episode three, Night King somehow surviving Drogon's full fire blast, etc. - I've generally still liked this season, and especially episode three. I've also felt like a lot of it could be looked over given how good the story and writing has been up until this point, and many were being too critical and looking for things to complain about.

But tonight I felt some of those criticisms came to fruition pretty heavily with some head-scratching decisions. Some of the ones that bugged me the most:

1) Rushed, rushed, rushed. The entire season absolutely feels rushed, but the Dany/Mad Queen storyline feels like it is being forced down our throats. They've dropped very, very subtle hints toward this end over the past several seasons, but they needed to start hedging that way more explicitly last season. By going full steam ahead with this storyline only in the final season it absolutely feels forced and rushed.

2) So much for that final "battle." What a cakewalk. After playing up the Scorpion weapons, the Iron Fleet, and the Golden Company so heavily, Dany literally nullifies the Scorpions and the Iron Fleet in a matter of minutes and the feared Golden Company in one freaking swoop of Drogon. After killing off Rhaegal all willy-nilly last episode with what looked like an incredibly deadly and efficient weapon, this was such a letdown and out of nowhere. Just poor writing and set-up.

3) Okay, I get the whole blood lust/"flip a coin" Mad Queen narrative, but they absolutely took it to far with the virtual complete destruction of the city by Drogon. What sense does it make to beat Cersei and take control of King's Landing if you're going to blow it to hell needlessly when doing so? I just don't buy that narrative that she is so blood thirsty that she couldn't recognize that; perhaps if that narrative was more played out and had more time to establish itself it would be more believable.

4) The entire Jamie narrative kind of p---es me off. Like he spends, what, three full seasons on a redemption arc, and in the matter of 1 1/4 episodes he goes full circle and ends up right back where he started in episode one?! I mean, come on. And while I have to imagine that we'll see Jamie and Cersei one more time in the finale, it very well might be that their supposed death scene was true, which would be so underwhelming of an end for those two.

5) Finally, after making Arya a complete badass over the past few seasons and having her actually own her badass self over the last several episodes, I simply don't buy that she would tuck tail and run for her safety rather than go to battle with the Hound with the chance of taking two people off of her list in The Mountain and, especially, Cersei. Like, that's just completely out of line with the entire character that they've developed with her, so it's frustrating to watch that.

All that said, the Clegane Bowl was awesome, and I still love the series and have enjoyed this season overall. But, yeah, tonight was a bit of a letdown for me.

[Phantom255x]

Oh yeah, Arya’s killing Dany next week.

Also, did anyone find that Euron-Jaime fight to be pointless. Like seriously, what was the point of that?? There was like no build up to it and it just felt so random (and forced).

And that’s how Jaime-Cersei die? All that build up and it just happens like that? Idk...

Lastly, that battle honestly felt way too easy. So Euron and the Iron Fleet have no trouble killing a Dragon and wreaking havoc on Dany’s fleet a week ago, but tonight they get defeated that easily? And boy the Golden Company sure fought valiantly!   

Cersei went from smart, wise and clever to pretty much defeated and scared that quickly. Shows that they’re really rushing things here.

But I will admit that Tyrion-Jaime moment in the tent was beautiful and well done. The feels...   

[keevsnick]

I honestly believe that this season, and the last two or three in general, have been some of the worst of writing I have ever has the displeasure of witnessing.

First off there's the mad queen story line, the payoff just wasn't earned. I'm not saying Dany hasn't killed, or even done some terrible things. But in literally ever other case it was done to further her own goals. Whether it was killing the slave masters, burning a traitor, ect. It was harsh yes, but the deaths served some greater goal. Even the Tarly's served the greater purpose of brining the remaining Lord's into line, and was done under a situation where she had to kill them in order to keep her own word. And in plenty of circumstances she has gone out of her way to avoid death at the expense of her own goals or self satisfaction, whether its telling the Dothraki not to kill to kill innocents, putting off going to Westeros to stabilize the slave cities, telling Yara the iron born would no longer plunder, locking up her Dragons when they killed innocents, ect. She has in every case when given a choice preserve the innocents. She has ben brutal with those who oppose her, but never shown even the slightest inclination to kill civilians. And now I'm supposed to believe she just decided to torch thousands? I'm jut not buying it. I  could buy her flying up to the red keep and flaming Cersei after she surrenders, I could buy her even flying down on Drogon and torching Lannister troops. But there is simply no reason to attack he city itself, its not something that anything in her character or that has happened this season would indicate would even cross her mind.

Now beyond that. Here is my list of other significant issues.....

1) Arya killing the night king was dumb. It was Jons arc, Arya jumped in at the last minute because the show writers  didn't wnat to give us the conflict we expected. BUT EVERYONE KNOWING WHAT IS GONNA HAPPEN IS NOT A REASON TO AVOID THAT ENDING. GRRM has made this point himself in interviews. We expect Jon to battle the Night King because they have the history, the prophecies, and everything Jon has done to fight the white walker. Its his arc, removing that ending makes him largely useless as a character.

2) So what is the point of  Jon being a Targaryen? Besides serving to add drive Dany mad with jealousy if he's not gonna kill the Night King, and he's not gonna end up on the throne (which seems unlikely given that Kings Landing is ash), then why make him part of the Royal family at all. Whats the point?

3) Tyrion has been useless for like 3 seasons.

4) Last episode Rhaegal gets taken out in three shots, today Drogon destroys a city. It seems like Dragons are as strong or weak as they need to be in any episode.

I guess my chief complaint is that in earlier season the characters drove the plot. Crazy stuff happened, but it happened because the characters acted in a way in line with their motivations and skills. In these later episodes plot drove characters. Characters did stuff because the writers wanted the plot to go to a given point and wrote whatever they had to make it happen.

In short, this feels like a mess. It wouldn't even surprise me if the books ended in a similar way, but I can only hope they do a much better job getting to that point.

[ederson]

So last week just one scorpion on a moving ship killed with 3 straight succesfull shots a dragon but yesterday tens of them placed on fixed surface failed to make a scratch....

In the battle of winderfel the 2 dragons helped less than me sitting on my sofa but yesterday just one of them managed to destroy an army a fleet and huge fortifications

A dragon is destroying the red keep tower by tower and qyburn says to cersey 'you must leave the unsullied will break the keep' s door any minute'...

Arya a trained killer who didn't even change expression when she saw her brothers after all this time almost cried because the hound.

And then she runs through a collapsing city, she has building falling all over her the dragon breathing over her neck everyone else around her gets burned but she gets a few scratches.

Jamie gets two holes on his sides and looks healthier than everyone after a while and runs around the red keep like a boy.

The series has becone a Schwarzenegger movie....

[LarBrd33]

This destination made sense.  The episode worked.  Unfortunately, the journey to this destination was botched pretty badly. 

Dany going full heel is plausible, though.  I expect Jon to kill her off in the finale to wrap this all up.

[LarBrd33]

Incredible episode.

really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that  quickly just too fast

To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee. 

It all felt very rushed for sure, but there was plenty along the way to suggest this is likely where GRR Martin always had his story ending up.