A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[PhoSita]

I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.

And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.

Just doesn't seem plausible.  Seems far more likely the show just gave up on that prophecy and that if Martin does ever finish the books, Jon will in fact kill the Night King and fulfill the prophecy. 

To that point, I almost think Martin has been sitting on the books waiting for the show to finish.  I mean he has already released something like 12 chapters at various points for the next book.  I just don't see him releasing that many chapters if he wasn't done with the book (maybe some final editing choices, but basically done).  I also think he has most of the final book written in at least some format.  I really think he just didn't want to spoil the show by releasing the books.  I expect book 6 will come out in early 2020 before the prequels start airing.

In some ways, waiting for the show to end and then releasing the final books in short order could be a smart move.  Especially if the end of the show is a bit of a clustercuss.

[fairweatherfan]

I’m very surprised people find this season interesting. I think they’ve ruined the show.

It's interesting in the way a slow motion car wreck is interesting.


I can't recall watching a show for this long only for the seams to start showing so plainly in the final season. 

At this point it feels to me like they're just trying desperately to get to the finish line, no matter how much of a mess they make in getting there.


This is a "land the plane even if all that's left is smoldering debris" sort of final season.

Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff.  This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made.  I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing.  From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.

Another of course is that criticism is highly underrated as a form of entertainment. We're all Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, and it's serving up some doozies to riff on.

[td450]

Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei 

But honestly it’s becoming really obvious they’re rushing everything now and the writing’s been compromised as a result.

The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Dany’s Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.

In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.

[Moranis]

Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei 

But honestly it’s becoming really obvious they’re rushing everything now and the writing’s been compromised as a result.

The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Dany’s Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.

In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.

Yeah it was so dumb.  She should have just wrapped the chains around Cersei and flung herself and Cersei off the cliff.  The show again going for dramatic effect but leaving all logic out of it.

[PhoSita]

Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff.  This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made.  I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing.  From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.

I don't disagree with this sentiment.

My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.


Like, Rhaegal getting shot out of the sky this week -- quite a memorable moment.

Does it make much sense?  No, it doesn't. 

How far away were those boats?  A mile?  Two miles?  And they shot those bolts with such force that they were still traveling straight and true and were able to pierce dragonhide?


How is it possible that nobody noticed the entire fleet of ships, yet Dany's fleet and her dragons were apparently exposed long enough that the ballistas were able to get all lined up perfectly to snipe Rhaegal?


I'm left feeling that the only answer is "Don't think about it too hard."

That is a really dispiriting way to approach a show that, before the last season or two, was one of the best examples on television of a show that rewarded close watching and provided lots of fodder for discussion after the episodes ended.



I understand that some people are able to enjoy the really impressive visuals and the "cool" factor of a lot of the big moments irrespective of whether the context / logistics / character motivations make any sense. 

As I've said before, I'm not saying those people are "wrong."  But it is a bummer to me because it now feels like I'm watching a different kind of show.

[PhoSita]

I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...


If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?


They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away.  So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?


Qyburn deserves to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms since he's apparently designed and implemented an entire city worth of weapons that are as effective and accurate as modern anti-aircraft guns.

[Moranis]

I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...


If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?


They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away.  So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?


Qyburn deserves to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms since he's apparently designed and implemented an entire city worth of weapons that are as effective and accurate as modern anti-aircraft guns.

I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them.  Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).

[action781]

My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.

Like, Rhaegal getting shot out of the sky this week -- quite a memorable moment.

Does it make much sense?  No, it doesn't. 

How far away were those boats?  A mile?  Two miles?  And they shot those bolts with such force that they were still traveling straight and true and were able to pierce dragonhide?


How is it possible that nobody noticed the entire fleet of ships, yet Dany's fleet and her dragons were apparently exposed long enough that the ballistas were able to get all lined up perfectly to snipe Rhaegal?

I'm left feeling that the only answer is "Don't think about it too hard."

PhoSita, I can somewhat understand your qualms a little bit regarding Rheagal's unlikely death.  It just seemed like too rash and illogical of a move.  But my takeaway was that it's a result of Dany's over-eagerness to go storm Kings Landing.  Everyone wanted her to wait and let the armies rest and heal for a moment after the battle of their lives, yet she insists on pressing onward immediately.  Her growing greed is causing her to act irrationally and that was the result.  On those grounds, I can accept that.

[action781]

I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...

If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?

They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away.  So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?

I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them.  Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).

I agree with this.  I don't find that a stretch to accept.

[PhoSita]

My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.

Like, Rhaegal getting shot out of the sky this week -- quite a memorable moment.

Does it make much sense?  No, it doesn't. 

How far away were those boats?  A mile?  Two miles?  And they shot those bolts with such force that they were still traveling straight and true and were able to pierce dragonhide?


How is it possible that nobody noticed the entire fleet of ships, yet Dany's fleet and her dragons were apparently exposed long enough that the ballistas were able to get all lined up perfectly to snipe Rhaegal?

I'm left feeling that the only answer is "Don't think about it too hard."

PhoSita, I can somewhat understand your qualms a little bit regarding Rheagal's unlikely death.  It just seemed like too rash and illogical of a move.  But my takeaway was that it's a result of Dany's over-eagerness to go storm Kings Landing.  Everyone wanted her to wait and let the armies rest and heal for a moment after the battle of their lives, yet she insists on pressing onward immediately.  Her growing greed is causing her to act irrationally and that was the result.  On those grounds, I can accept that.

That's exactly my problem though.  The stuff that happens clearly serves a useful purpose in terms of advancing the plot.  I think you're absolutely correct about all of that. 

For me, the fact that something advances the plot in a useful, even necessary way doesn't overcome the fact that they way they did it makes no sense.

[PhoSita]

I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...


If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?


They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away.  So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?


Qyburn deserves to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms since he's apparently designed and implemented an entire city worth of weapons that are as effective and accurate as modern anti-aircraft guns.

I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them.  Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).

When was the last time we saw Cersei do anything to suggest she cares about how her people see her?  Her guards are a bunch of black-faced undead dudes, her hand is a creepy torturer / mad scientist guy, and her lover / chief military person is an Ironborn pirate.

I mean, I suppose your explanation is as good as any a person could come up with.  Still doesn't really make much sense to me.  I think the real answer is that the ballistae only work when the show needs them to work, otherwise they're pretty limited.

[LarBrd33]

Lol



Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.

Fairly convinced that is an intentional viral marketing meme campaign and Starbucks paid them a hefty sum for the product placement.   Someone needs to pay for the cgi dragons.

[fairweatherfan]

Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff.  This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made.  I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing.  From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.

I don't disagree with this sentiment.

My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.

Cut the examples for space but this is a good characterization:



It's a really cool horse and it's been fun to watch them draw it, but as it's gone on the main features are still being put together but in a cruder, more rushed and less coherent way. To use a different analogy the skeleton of the show is all there in terms of major plot moments and arcs but pretty much as soon as they got past the books the connective tissue turned to sludge.

This is partly the books' fault - remember there's allegedly 2 books back and they haven't even resolved the Mereen situation or given Dany the Dothraki's support. Hell the end of Book 5 jumped forward a bit but freaking Stannis will still be alive and kicking when Book 6 starts.  It almost has to be rushed to go through everything left in the narrative.  But a lot of it just seems sloppy. Again, all while the technical stuff is better than ever.

I still love my dumb dragon show, it's just been a bummer to see the quality crumble. I try to appreciate what I can while still making fun of it when it deserves it.

Fairly convinced that is an intentional viral marketing meme campaign and Starbucks paid them a hefty sum for the product placement.   Someone needs to pay for the cgi dragons.

I don't think there's any way that's negotiated without a visible logo.

[PhoSita]

Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff.  This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made.  I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing.  From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.

I don't disagree with this sentiment.

My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.

Cut the examples for space but this is a good characterization:



It's a really cool horse and it's been fun to watch them draw it, but as it's gone on the main features are still being put together but in a cruder, more rushed and less coherent way. To use a different analogy the skeleton of the show is all there in terms of major plot moments and arcs but pretty much as soon as they got past the books the connective tissue turned to sludge.

This is partly the books' fault - remember there's allegedly 2 books back and they haven't even resolved the Mereen situation or given Dany the Dothraki's support. Hell the end of Book 5 jumped forward a bit but freaking Stannis will still be alive and kicking when Book 6 starts.  It almost has to be rushed to go through everything left in the narrative.  But a lot of it just seems sloppy. Again, all while the technical stuff is better than ever.

I still love my dumb dragon show, it's just been a bummer to see the quality crumble. I try to appreciate what I can while still making fun of it when it deserves it.

Fairly convinced that is an intentional viral marketing meme campaign and Starbucks paid them a hefty sum for the product placement.   Someone needs to pay for the cgi dragons.

I don't think there's any way that's negotiated without a visible logo.

I'm still tuning in every Sunday as soon as it's on, so.


You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.

I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.

[Phantom255x]

Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei 

But honestly it’s becoming really obvious they’re rushing everything now and the writing’s been compromised as a result.

The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Dany’s Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.

In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.

Yeah it was so dumb.  She should have just wrapped the chains around Cersei and flung herself and Cersei off the cliff.  The show again going for dramatic effect but leaving all logic out of it.

Or even better. I think Cersei was actually still pretty close to Missandei (somewhat beside her). If the Mountain still made that full swing and Missandei ducked at that moment, is Cersei the one getting beheaded (or at least getting hit with the sword)?