Jermaine O'Neal- "I am going to try and talk Sheed into coming back "

[Jon]

Not sure this Celtics team is good enough to win without Perkins.

If he can't play this season ... that might be it for the Celtics' title hopes.

I partly agree.  However, there were times even in the playoffs when Doc would leave in BBD towards the end of games instead of Perk.  And while I believe that Perk might be the best post defender in the NBA and that he may well stop opposing big men from scoring at times, how many times does he blow offensive opportunities for us because teams either double off him or because he can't convert easy dunks/layups because he insists on dribbling the ball before going up with it?  

While Jermaine might let his man get a couple more buckets than Perk would, it's also fair to assume he'll score a couple more buckets than Perk would.  Throw in the fact that Jermaine's presence on the court means that teams can't double any of our four other starts, and we may have a net gain.  

[Birdbrain]

Not sure this Celtics team is good enough to win without Perkins.

If he can't play this season ... that might be it for the Celtics' title hopes.

You took his grim outlook on Perk situation and multiplied by a 1,000.

: )

[More Banners]

Sheed's contract + Perk's expiring contract + BBD's expiring contract + 2 non-guaranteed deals + a few picks and cash here and there = a trade for anything up to a max deal.

My friends, Perk is on the block.

Perk isn't going to do much for us next year, and certainly won't be playing at championship-level.  Sheed and his aging, aching, elderly back won't be around next year, either.

We can talk about post defense all freakin' day, but the most important ability in an athlete is availability.  Championship-level Perk is not available next year.  Sheed hasn't been a championship-level player since the 2004 miracle when they came out of a weak East and beat an injured and dysfunctional Laker team.  Sheed seems to have consistently come up just short in other big playoff series in detroit.  No reason to expect him to be a savior now.  He played his ass off in Game 7, but we lost largely due to giving up the boards, and he, as the 7-foot center, has a good deal to do with that.

Let's move on.

[drza44]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

Leon Powe had a torn ACL, and microfracture surgery, and was back on the court in 9 months...but from what I have read his injury was much worse than Perk's (microfracture is very tough).

Wes Welker was running full speed in mini-camp a couple months ago, after tearing his ACL in January.

Al Jefferson was playing regular minutes in the first game of the season last year on October 28th, after tearing his ACL on February 10.  That is about 8 months.

If it takes Perkins 8 months to get back on the court, that puts him at March.  Still plenty of time before the playoffs.  And, if you happen to believe Perk is tougher, and a quicker healer than Al Jefferson (possibly with the help of some pharmaceuticals), I think February, or early is not ridiculous.

So, as long as the C's can find a decent 4th big to hold down the fort, I think they are just fine up front.

All of your best case scenarios would have Perk getting on the court around February or March, which I suggested as a possibility.  But none of the ones you mentioned were remotely close to full speed at that 8-month mark.  Jefferson and Powe were playing by then, but at a fraction of their former selves.  Jefferson didn't start looking like himself until into 2010, around the year-mark from his surgery.  And these are your BEST case scenarios.

I'm not guaranteeing that Perk doesn't play this year.  In fact, I hope he is back and contributing by February.  But even an optimistic view has him as like  PJ Brown type addition this year, coming in late and limping through the end of the season with hopes of making a meaningful contribution in limited minutes in the postseason.  And even with that hope, there's the very real possibility that he doesn't come back at all before the end of the season.

And when making plans for building a team that hopes to compete for a title this year, I think you have to plan for the worst case scenario even as you hope for the best.  So to that end, I am hoping that Danny is planning as though he doesn't have Perk at all and if he does make a quicker-than-usual recovery from surgery then he's just found-money as opposed to a lottery ticket that we're banking on.

[drza44]

Not sure this Celtics team is good enough to win without Perkins.

If he can't play this season ... that might be it for the Celtics' title hopes.

Perk is the most replaceable of the starting 5, provided of course that an NBA-caliber player is brought in.  A frontline of KG/O'Neal/Wallace/Baby should be at least as strong as what we trotted out to start last year, and possibly better.  Failing the addition of another big (or the retention of Wallace), though, I would to some extent share your concern.

[Jon]

Well, I think the good news is that Perk really only needs to be able to play limited minutes for us to win.  There's no reason that come playoff time that KG, JO, and BBD all can't play north of 30 mpg each.  That pretty much covers ALL 4/5 minutes, meaning that Perk really would only need to be available for spot minutes and when foul trouble crept up.

And as I've said before, the other good news is that Perk never relied on speed or athleticism for his game.  It's not like he's a Tyson Chandler type who totally relies on jumping through the roof.  I don't know if I've ever seen a near-7-footer dunk less than Perk does.  

[Chris]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

Leon Powe had a torn ACL, and microfracture surgery, and was back on the court in 9 months...but from what I have read his injury was much worse than Perk's (microfracture is very tough).

Wes Welker was running full speed in mini-camp a couple months ago, after tearing his ACL in January.

Al Jefferson was playing regular minutes in the first game of the season last year on October 28th, after tearing his ACL on February 10.  That is about 8 months.

If it takes Perkins 8 months to get back on the court, that puts him at March.  Still plenty of time before the playoffs.  And, if you happen to believe Perk is tougher, and a quicker healer than Al Jefferson (possibly with the help of some pharmaceuticals), I think February, or early is not ridiculous.

So, as long as the C's can find a decent 4th big to hold down the fort, I think they are just fine up front.

All of your best case scenarios would have Perk getting on the court around February or March, which I suggested as a possibility.  But none of the ones you mentioned were remotely close to full speed at that 8-month mark.  Jefferson and Powe were playing by then, but at a fraction of their former selves.  Jefferson didn't start looking like himself until into 2010, around the year-mark from his surgery.  And these are your BEST case scenarios.

I'm not guaranteeing that Perk doesn't play this year.  In fact, I hope he is back and contributing by February.  But even an optimistic view has him as like  PJ Brown type addition this year, coming in late and limping through the end of the season with hopes of making a meaningful contribution in limited minutes in the postseason.  And even with that hope, there's the very real possibility that he doesn't come back at all before the end of the season.

And when making plans for building a team that hopes to compete for a title this year, I think you have to plan for the worst case scenario even as you hope for the best.  So to that end, I am hoping that Danny is planning as though he doesn't have Perk at all and if he does make a quicker-than-usual recovery from surgery then he's just found-money as opposed to a lottery ticket that we're banking on.

Well, those aren't "best case scenarios", they are just the three most recent ACL tears I could think of.  

And I agree that you have to plan for a worst case scenario.  That is why I think it is a MUCH worst case scenario to have no legitimate backup wings than to have only one legitimate backup big men.  

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing. 

[drza44]

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing. 

I disagree about the scarcity and need for this team.  I have no doubt we could come out with a Posey/Daniels caliber 3rd (and possibly) 4th wing before the season begins, and I'd be conten with that.  And of the players on your list, I'm actually fine with a Rasho or a Kwame in that slot (centers that can and have played starter minutes and can contribute).

But the overarching lesson I got from the way last year played out is that this team absolutely has to have length up front.  That game 7 loss was more about the fact that Baby just isn't long enough to compete with the Lakers frontline than anything else.  When KG and Sheed were in the game, we were ok.  But when they got in foul trouble, it was a problem.  Similarly, this year, in order to beat the Heat we need our big man advantage.

For this Celtic team, my hierarchy of necessity would be:

1) Big man defense
2) Effective initiation of the offense
3) Wing scoring

If any of our main guys get injured it hurts.  But I don't buy the 3 bigs vs 2 wings on roster argument, because we really only have 2 bigs that can play the way we need to for the team to be at it's best.  If either KG or O'Neal go down for any extended period, we need another 7-footer on hand to keep our defense tight.  If that's a Rasho-type, that's fine.  But to me it's a bigger issue than whoever we could get to back up Paul and Ray. 

With healthy bigs, healthy Rondo/Nate, and either a healthy Pierce or Allen along with a couple of other replacement-caliber wings they could still play Celtics basketball at a near championship level.  With healthy Rondo/Nate, healthy wings, and only one starting caliber 7-footer on the roster this team would be in a world of hurt as the defense is still their bread and butter.

[Chris]

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing.  

I disagree about the scarcity and need for this team.  I have no doubt we could come out with a Posey/Daniels caliber 3rd (and possibly) 4th wing before the season begins, and I'd be conten with that.  And of the players on your list, I'm actually fine with a Rasho or a Kwame in that slot (centers that can and have played starter minutes and can contribute).

But the overarching lesson I got from the way last year played out is that this team absolutely has to have length up front.  That game 7 loss was more about the fact that Baby just isn't long enough to compete with the Lakers frontline than anything else.  When KG and Sheed were in the game, we were ok.  But when they got in foul trouble, it was a problem.  Similarly, this year, in order to beat the Heat we need our big man advantage.

For this Celtic team, my hierarchy of necessity would be:

1) Big man defense
2) Effective initiation of the offense
3) Wing scoring

If any of our main guys get injured it hurts.  But I don't buy the 3 bigs vs 2 wings on roster argument, because we really only have 2 bigs that can play the way we need to for the team to be at it's best.  If either KG or O'Neal go down for any extended period, we need another 7-footer on hand to keep our defense tight.  If that's a Rasho-type, that's fine.  But to me it's a bigger issue than whoever we could get to back up Paul and Ray.  

With healthy bigs, healthy Rondo/Nate, and either a healthy Pierce or Allen along with a couple of other replacement-caliber wings they could still play Celtics basketball at a near championship level.  With healthy Rondo/Nate, healthy wings, and only one starting caliber 7-footer on the roster this team would be in a world of hurt as the defense is still their bread and butter.

You mean Posey right now?  Or Posey in 2008?  Because I do not see anyone close to Posey in 2008 available for the vet minimum.

And let's be 100% clear about something.  If Perkins is not back to close to 100% by the playoffs, this team does not stand a chance to win a title.  They also will not sniff a title if they do not have an exceptional wing off the bench.  So, if Perkins is not going to be back, they need to trade him.  Otherwise, they need to find a way to hold down the fort until he returns, and that means not having huge holes.

[Jon]

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing.  

I disagree about the scarcity and need for this team.  I have no doubt we could come out with a Posey/Daniels caliber 3rd (and possibly) 4th wing before the season begins, and I'd be conten with that.  And of the players on your list, I'm actually fine with a Rasho or a Kwame in that slot (centers that can and have played starter minutes and can contribute).

But the overarching lesson I got from the way last year played out is that this team absolutely has to have length up front.  That game 7 loss was more about the fact that Baby just isn't long enough to compete with the Lakers frontline than anything else.  When KG and Sheed were in the game, we were ok.  But when they got in foul trouble, it was a problem.  Similarly, this year, in order to beat the Heat we need our big man advantage.

For this Celtic team, my hierarchy of necessity would be:

1) Big man defense
2) Effective initiation of the offense
3) Wing scoring

If any of our main guys get injured it hurts.  But I don't buy the 3 bigs vs 2 wings on roster argument, because we really only have 2 bigs that can play the way we need to for the team to be at it's best.  If either KG or O'Neal go down for any extended period, we need another 7-footer on hand to keep our defense tight.  If that's a Rasho-type, that's fine.  But to me it's a bigger issue than whoever we could get to back up Paul and Ray.  

With healthy bigs, healthy Rondo/Nate, and either a healthy Pierce or Allen along with a couple of other replacement-caliber wings they could still play Celtics basketball at a near championship level.  With healthy Rondo/Nate, healthy wings, and only one starting caliber 7-footer on the roster this team would be in a world of hurt as the defense is still their bread and butter.

You mean Posey right now?  Or Posey in 2008?  Because I do not see anyone close to Posey in 2008 available for the vet minimum.

And let's be 100% clear about something.  If Perkins is not back to close to 100% by the playoffs, this team does not stand a chance to win a title.  They also will not sniff a title if they do not have an exceptional wing off the bench.  So, if Perkins is not going to be back, they need to trade him.  Otherwise, they need to find a way to hold down the fort until he returns, and that means not having huge holes.

I agree.  The wing spot is going to be far harder to fix with the minimum than merely adding one more big. 

I also don't understand this "if KG or O'Neal goes down" business.  What do you mean?  If either goes down for 5-10 games during the regular season, it doesn't matter: this team will make the playoffs with Mikki Moore starting 10 games. 

If it's the playoffs, we're not going to win the title if either goes down for the season.  So planning some sort of contingency plan is sort of pointless. 

[Chris]

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing.  

I disagree about the scarcity and need for this team.  I have no doubt we could come out with a Posey/Daniels caliber 3rd (and possibly) 4th wing before the season begins, and I'd be conten with that.  And of the players on your list, I'm actually fine with a Rasho or a Kwame in that slot (centers that can and have played starter minutes and can contribute).

But the overarching lesson I got from the way last year played out is that this team absolutely has to have length up front.  That game 7 loss was more about the fact that Baby just isn't long enough to compete with the Lakers frontline than anything else.  When KG and Sheed were in the game, we were ok.  But when they got in foul trouble, it was a problem.  Similarly, this year, in order to beat the Heat we need our big man advantage.

For this Celtic team, my hierarchy of necessity would be:

1) Big man defense
2) Effective initiation of the offense
3) Wing scoring

If any of our main guys get injured it hurts.  But I don't buy the 3 bigs vs 2 wings on roster argument, because we really only have 2 bigs that can play the way we need to for the team to be at it's best.  If either KG or O'Neal go down for any extended period, we need another 7-footer on hand to keep our defense tight.  If that's a Rasho-type, that's fine.  But to me it's a bigger issue than whoever we could get to back up Paul and Ray.  

With healthy bigs, healthy Rondo/Nate, and either a healthy Pierce or Allen along with a couple of other replacement-caliber wings they could still play Celtics basketball at a near championship level.  With healthy Rondo/Nate, healthy wings, and only one starting caliber 7-footer on the roster this team would be in a world of hurt as the defense is still their bread and butter.

You mean Posey right now?  Or Posey in 2008?  Because I do not see anyone close to Posey in 2008 available for the vet minimum.

And let's be 100% clear about something.  If Perkins is not back to close to 100% by the playoffs, this team does not stand a chance to win a title.  They also will not sniff a title if they do not have an exceptional wing off the bench.  So, if Perkins is not going to be back, they need to trade him.  Otherwise, they need to find a way to hold down the fort until he returns, and that means not having huge holes.

I agree.  The wing spot is going to be far harder to fix with the minimum than merely adding one more big. 

I also don't understand this "if KG or O'Neal goes down" business.  What do you mean?  If either goes down for 5-10 games during the regular season, it doesn't matter: this team will make the playoffs with Mikki Moore starting 10 games. 

If it's the playoffs, we're not going to win the title if either goes down for the season.  So planning some sort of contingency plan is sort of pointless. 

Exactly.  This team cannot win a championship (or even come very close), unless they are near 100%.  They had remarkable luck with injuries last year, and they need them again this year.  They really cannot contend with any of their top 7-8 players injured. 

So, instead, you need to plan for the best case scenario with this team.  Build the strongest team you can if they are 100%, and then start worrying about filling in depth behind the top 9 guys after that. 

[Birdbrain]

Right now, the C's have 3 rotation quality big men.  They have 2 rotation quality wings.  You can more than make due with 3 big men in the playoffs, you cannot with only 2 wings.  So I think wing is the bigger need right now.

And looking at the vet minimum free agent options, I think there are much better options as a 4th big man than as a 3rd wing.  Guys like Kurt Thomas, Kwame Brown, Juwan Howard, Craig Smith, Josh Boone, Rasho Nesterovic, or Fabricio Oberto would be better options as 4th big man then any of the vet free agent options would be as 3rd wing. 

But the overarching lesson I got from the way last year played out is that this team absolutely has to have length up front.  That game 7 loss was more about the fact that Baby just isn't long enough to compete with the Lakers frontline than anything else.  When KG and Sheed were in the game, we were ok.  But when they got in foul trouble, it was a problem.  Similarly, this year, in order to beat the Heat we need our big man advantage.

First let me say they need to add another big.  A vet min guy would suffice.

But, I just can't see where you came to conclusion.  There were infinite more reasons why the C's lost.  Primarily not scoring enough points.  When you hold a team on their own court to 83 in game 7 you should win with ease.  We struggled to score and BBD was actually one of our main scorers.  Look to Ray not hitting the side of the barn and KG getting 1 rb and you have your reason for the loss.  JOs added length will more replace Wallace.  You seem be to be shoehorning an opinion by using a misconception that is pretty far off base IMO. 

[GreenFaith1819]

I laughed to myself when I saw this thread. I love Sheed, but the only way I would welcome him back is if he played the same way throughout the regular season as he did in that Game 7. Lord knows we needed him during the regular season last yr, but we'd need him even moreso this time.

I just don't know if he is healthy enough to do that, or willing. Sure - I did a lot of defending for the man, but with Perk being out, we would need Sheed 150% to fill his role.

I just don't know if Sheed is ready to do that. But Man, it would be nice - imagine Game 7 Sheed doing that for us in the regular season.

Either way, we still need a wing, but that's old news. I believe Danny won't let us down, though...we still have what, 2 months before training camp?

[celticinorlando]

JO...do us a favor and please dont

[hpantazo]

I laughed to myself when I saw this thread. I love Sheed, but the only way I would welcome him back is if he played the same way throughout the regular season as he did in that Game 7. Lord knows we needed him during the regular season last yr, but we'd need him even moreso this time.

I just don't know if he is healthy enough to do that, or willing. Sure - I did a lot of defending for the man, but with Perk being out, we would need Sheed 150% to fill his role.

I just don't know if Sheed is ready to do that. But Man, it would be nice - imagine Game 7 Sheed doing that for us in the regular season.

Either way, we still need a wing, but that's old news. I believe Danny won't let us down, though...we still have what, 2 months before training camp?

that's right, and we have 6 or 7 months before the trading deadline, so Danny is fine