Jermaine O'Neal- "I am going to try and talk Sheed into coming back "

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, while sheed is jerking us around...he is doing the"lebron" thing...either retire or get with it...stop being a girl...a bretty farbo....i'll play, i won't play blahblahblah.....one way or the other...isn't the WHOLE SUMMER OFF enough..geeesh, you aren't that old.....get in shape....get on it...or be gone i say...we'll get a player with that money then...!

[Chris]

Well, while sheed is jerking us around...he is doing the"lebron" thing...either retire or get with it...stop being a girl...a bretty farbo....i'll play, i won't play blahblahblah.....one way or the other...isn't the WHOLE SUMMER OFF enough..geeesh, you aren't that old.....get in shape....get on it...or be gone i say...we'll get a player with that money then...!

From what I can gather, Sheed hasn't wavered one bit on retiring.  He has told Doc and Danny that he is retiring.  They asked him to hold off on filing the papers, so they can trade his contract, and he agreed to it.  The only ones speculating that he won't retire are us, and other people who haven't talked to Sheed. 

[wiley]

I've said this again and again but no one seems to listen  

There is no way that Perk is back in 5 to 6 months.  He just underwent surgery.  If his ACL is fully torn, he is back late March at the earliest.  

And the way that Perkins plays, he uses his lower body strength to keep players from backing him down/the way he goes up to finish, there's no way he's going to be back to normal.

While we can hope that Perk has a speedy recovery, he probably isn't going to be the same Perk we're used to seeing.  There's a chance he doesn't even return at all next season.

We need another big.  If KG, JO, or BBD go down, we're down to ZERO legitimate backups.  I like Harangody, but I don't think he can play center.  If we bring back Sheed, that's fine.  If we can pick up another big like Shaq, that's also fine.

People have this illusion that the Celtics have a logjam at center, we don't.  Until we know more on Perk, Celtics management needs to prepare for the worst.

But for some reason people keep thinking

I guess this post of yours makes us soul mates....

I believe the smartest plan is to go forward expecting zero from Perk for the upcoming season.....let him come back and provide some gravy, or let him come back and pleasantly surprise and return to usual form....and if that unlikely scenario comes to pass, stop crying because some ancient, broken down, dinasaur of a center has to ride the pine a few more minutes than he'd like.....But even in the best case scenario regarding Perk, the likelihood of all other bigs being healthy all throughout the playoffs is low imo, meaning there won't be any bigs crying over minutes next post season.  At the level of intensity required, why would Sheed's back be any better next year than last? 

So, I just cannot fathom, with KG's knee, Jermaine's injury history, age, etc... all the logjam talk...it baffles me to no end....

ps:  Everyone was thrilled with Sheed's playoff level of play and forgave him for his reg. season performance.  Now we're back to trashing him simply because people are wishing he'd morph into a dynamite wing.  Let's separate the issue.  Our present need for a wing should not lead people into diminishing  Sheeds post-season value.  I'd be happy to see a repeat performance.....what the heck is wrong with a PJ Brown-like, or even better, impact?  So be happy if we get an awesome wing for Sheed, but don't bash if he decides to come back and provide excellent depth at the 5.

Finally, when we need extra bodies to give fouls in the playoffs, and protect our valued bigs from foul trouble, do you want those fouls given and by a Sheldon Williams type?  Or someone else who can hurt the overall cause with mistakes, even in scant minutes?  I'd rather have a legitimate player come in and do that job......

[wiley]

Obviously, we become overloaded at the 4/5 position once Perk comes back, as there's no way we're finding minutes for KG, JO, BBD, Sheed, and Perk.  And obviously we'd be weak at the 2/3 spots with nothing but the minimum to work with. 

There's always going to be concern about KG's health.  The main problem with JO is that he is not particularly durable and a decent bet to miss a dozen games.  Perk may be at half-speed when he comes back.  I don't think it is a bad thing to have depth at the 4/5.

But it's a bad thing to have depth at the 4/5 if it's at the expense of the 2/3.

As for KG, you're right, he is fragile.  But as far as I'm concerned, if KG goes down, we're not winning #18.  So having BBD and Perk around isn't going to change that.  And if KG simply goes down for 10-15 games, we'll still make the playoffs regardless of who is backing him up. 

Why would Danny ever sacrifice the 2/3?  It's a fallacy to characterize the thinking of a smart GM like Danny as willing to improve one area while saying to himself, "oh well, we'll just have to let other areas slide."

[Jon]

I've said this again and again but no one seems to listen 

There is no way that Perk is back in 5 to 6 months.  He just underwent surgery.  If his ACL is fully torn, he is back late March at the earliest. 

And the way that Perkins plays, he uses his lower body strength to keep players from backing him down/the way he goes up to finish, there's no way he's going to be back to normal.

While we can hope that Perk has a speedy recovery, he probably isn't going to be the same Perk we're used to seeing.  There's a chance he doesn't even return at all next season.

We need another big.  If KG, JO, or BBD go down, we're down to ZERO legitimate backups.  I like Harangody, but I don't think he can play center.  If we bring back Sheed, that's fine.  If we can pick up another big like Shaq, that's also fine.

People have this illusion that the Celtics have a logjam at center, we don't.  Until we know more on Perk, Celtics management needs to prepare for the worst.

But for some reason people keep thinking

I guess this post of yours makes us soul mates....

I believe the smartest plan is to go forward expecting zero from Perk for the upcoming season.....let him come back and provide some gravy, or let him come back and pleasantly surprise and return to usual form....and if that unlikely scenario comes to pass, stop crying because some ancient, broken down, dinasaur of a center has to ride the pine a few more minutes than he'd like.....But even in the best case scenario regarding Perk, the likelihood of all other bigs being healthy all throughout the playoffs is low imo, meaning there won't be any bigs crying over minutes next post season.  At the level of intensity required, why would Sheed's back be any better next year than last? 

So, I just cannot fathom, with KG's knee, Jermaine's injury history, age, etc... all the logjam talk...it baffles me to no end....

ps:  Everyone was thrilled with Sheed's playoff level of play and forgave him for his reg. season performance.  Now we're back to trashing him simply because people are wishing he'd morph into a dynamite wing.  Let's separate the issue.  Our present need for a wing should not lead people into diminishing  Sheeds post-season value.  I'd be happy to see a repeat performance.....what the heck is wrong with a PJ Brown-like, or even better, impact?  So be happy if we get an awesome wing for Sheed, but don't bash if he decides to come back and provide excellent depth at the 5.

Finally, when we need extra bodies to give fouls in the playoffs, and protect our valued bigs from foul trouble, do you want those fouls given and by a Sheldon Williams type?  Or someone else who can hurt the overall cause with mistakes, even in scant minutes?  I'd rather have a legitimate player come in and do that job......

It isn't that we have a logjam at the 4/5 spots, it's that we have no depth at the 2/3 spots.  The fact of the matter is that even if Perk doesn't come back at all next year, KG, JO, and BBD can handle most of the minutes by themselves.  KG averaged 31 mpg last year.  There's no reason that JO and BBD can't at least both put in 28 mpg.  That accounts for 87 mpg, meaning that we only need 9 more mpg of backup duty.  There's no reason that a minimum guy like Kurt Thomas or Kwame Brown can't play 9 mpg for us. 

As for the possibility of injuries, BBD is young so he has about as much of a chance as any player in the league.  If KG goes down for the year, we're not winning it all anyway, so I'd take him out of the depth argument all together.  So it's really just JO, which is a gamble, but a gamble we'll have to take. 

At the 2/3 spots we have no one but Avery Bradley right now.  Maybe he'll be great, but maybe not.  And either way, he can't play the 3 at all.  We need at least two more guys there and one of them can't be a mediocre minimum guy.  That's why it's such a pressing issue for everyone here. 

And to add to Wiley, the sacrifice I was talking about was Wallace's contract.  Whatever needs we don't fill with that trade are going to have to be filled by minimum contracts.  The reality of our financial situation doesn't make it a fallacy.  So if Danny traded Wallace for Shaq, he, in my book, would be sacrificing depth at the 2/3 for the 4/5. 

[wiley]

I've said this again and again but no one seems to listen 

There is no way that Perk is back in 5 to 6 months.  He just underwent surgery.  If his ACL is fully torn, he is back late March at the earliest. 

And the way that Perkins plays, he uses his lower body strength to keep players from backing him down/the way he goes up to finish, there's no way he's going to be back to normal.

While we can hope that Perk has a speedy recovery, he probably isn't going to be the same Perk we're used to seeing.  There's a chance he doesn't even return at all next season.

We need another big.  If KG, JO, or BBD go down, we're down to ZERO legitimate backups.  I like Harangody, but I don't think he can play center.  If we bring back Sheed, that's fine.  If we can pick up another big like Shaq, that's also fine.

People have this illusion that the Celtics have a logjam at center, we don't.  Until we know more on Perk, Celtics management needs to prepare for the worst.

But for some reason people keep thinking

I guess this post of yours makes us soul mates....

I believe the smartest plan is to go forward expecting zero from Perk for the upcoming season.....let him come back and provide some gravy, or let him come back and pleasantly surprise and return to usual form....and if that unlikely scenario comes to pass, stop crying because some ancient, broken down, dinasaur of a center has to ride the pine a few more minutes than he'd like.....But even in the best case scenario regarding Perk, the likelihood of all other bigs being healthy all throughout the playoffs is low imo, meaning there won't be any bigs crying over minutes next post season.  At the level of intensity required, why would Sheed's back be any better next year than last? 

So, I just cannot fathom, with KG's knee, Jermaine's injury history, age, etc... all the logjam talk...it baffles me to no end....

ps:  Everyone was thrilled with Sheed's playoff level of play and forgave him for his reg. season performance.  Now we're back to trashing him simply because people are wishing he'd morph into a dynamite wing.  Let's separate the issue.  Our present need for a wing should not lead people into diminishing  Sheeds post-season value.  I'd be happy to see a repeat performance.....what the heck is wrong with a PJ Brown-like, or even better, impact?  So be happy if we get an awesome wing for Sheed, but don't bash if he decides to come back and provide excellent depth at the 5.

Finally, when we need extra bodies to give fouls in the playoffs, and protect our valued bigs from foul trouble, do you want those fouls given and by a Sheldon Williams type?  Or someone else who can hurt the overall cause with mistakes, even in scant minutes?  I'd rather have a legitimate player come in and do that job......

It isn't that we have a logjam at the 4/5 spots, it's that we have no depth at the 2/3 spots.  The fact of the matter is that even if Perk doesn't come back at all next year, KG, JO, and BBD can handle most of the minutes by themselves.  KG averaged 31 mpg last year.  There's no reason that JO and BBD can't at least both put in 28 mpg.  That accounts for 87 mpg, meaning that we only need 9 more mpg of backup duty.  There's no reason that a minimum guy like Kurt Thomas or Kwame Brown can't play 9 mpg for us. 

As for the possibility of injuries, BBD is young so he has about as much of a chance as any player in the league.  If KG goes down for the year, we're not winning it all anyway, so I'd take him out of the depth argument all together.  So it's really just JO, which is a gamble, but a gamble we'll have to take. 

At the 2/3 spots we have no one but Avery Bradley right now.  Maybe he'll be great, but maybe not.  And either way, he can't play the 3 at all.  We need at least two more guys there and one of them can't be a mediocre minimum guy.  That's why it's such a pressing issue for everyone here. 

And to add to Wiley, the sacrifice I was talking about was Wallace's contract.  Whatever needs we don't fill with that trade are going to have to be filled by minimum contracts.  The reality of our financial situation doesn't make it a fallacy.  So if Danny traded Wallace for Shaq, he, in my book, would be sacrificing depth at the 2/3 for the 4/5. 

I think everyone, including me, wants Sheed to be traded for an excellent wing who will get big minutes behind Paul and Ray, then sign more bigs  with the vet. min.   The question is how realstic it is, and how long a wait is required, and how good the wing would be.

I'm glad you would be willing to add Kurt Thomas or another big to our rotation.....I was thinking you wanted to go with KG, J.O. Baby, injured Perk and a Sheldon Williams type player....Relying on that set of 5 bigs would be post-season suicide imo  given health concerns....and the lack of quality and size in the 5th big.

I'm not ready to buy that we can't win it without KG.  Look how well we did with KG at low minutes.  Roy even made a post about the possibility of our team doing better with Baby getting more minutes than KG.  KG is a player who provides not just on-court help, but a framework for others to follow, and the intensity to make the framework work......If we're deep enough in bigs we can withstand a KG injury....His stamp alone is worth a lot to a team.

[Birdbrain]

I am no KG and no title.  And I would suspect a big rotation of KG, JO, BBD and another vet min player would be fine until Perk gets back.  If he doesn't retire all the more better, no need to look for the vet min guy and Boston would then have the best big man rotation in the league.

Kurt Thomas would be a nice addition (for the vet min) to fill the void until Perk gets back.  Probably won't play very much but he can be used as case of emergency for JO.

[Jon]

It's going to be hard enough to win the title with KG; I can't imagine that we can win it without him.

What it comes down to me is that we're going most likely only going to be able to get a strong wing or a strong big man for Sheed's contract.  That means either one wing spot and one big spot are going to have to be minimum deals or both wing spots are going to have to be minimum deals.  Given that we already have one strong big on the bench (BBD) and maybe a second (in Perk), I think we're much better off going after the wing. 

Plus, it doesn't hurt that a guy like Kurt Thomas or Kwame Brown could likely be had at the minimum. 

[wiley]

It's going to be hard enough to win the title with KG; I can't imagine that we can win it without him.

What it comes down to me is that we're going most likely only going to be able to get a strong wing or a strong big man for Sheed's contract.  That means either one wing spot and one big spot are going to have to be minimum deals or both wing spots are going to have to be minimum deals.  Given that we already have one strong big on the bench (BBD) and maybe a second (in Perk), I think we're much better off going after the wing. 

Plus, it doesn't hurt that a guy like Kurt Thomas or Kwame Brown could likely be had at the minimum. 

Yes, very hard without KG, but not impossible.  Perk would have to come back 100% and Jermaine would need to have a career (throwback to his early days) year, along with Baby having a career year.  Along with that, if Rondo ups his outside game even a small amount, and Nate provides consistently big offensive games, it could be done....The Celtics are a structurally sound team with a deeply ingrained system.....with teams like that, sometimes wins keep flowing for a while even with the loss of a big time player.....

[drza44]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

[Birdbrain]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

TP although I don't share your grim outlook on Perk I'll concede that the likelihood that it turns out that way is possible.  I really liked your view on KG.

[colincb]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

TP. 100% right on Perk's situation. A big is critical.

[Eeyore III]

Aside from pursuing Josh Howard, I cannot identify a single way of using Sheed's "expiring contract" that makes sense for both teams, and that I would do as GM.

As far as wings go, there's Nocioni, Mo Pete, Posey and Luke Walton.  Each of those guys' teams probably would like to jettison their contracts, and although Mo Pete's contract expires this year OKC has other similar expiring contracts to use if something comes up at the trade deadline.  The Nocioni idea has been beaten to death.  Walton doesn't have a good enough shot.  Mo Pete plays no D.  Posey is too old, and I just don't see DA doing it.

As for bigs, there's only Jeffries and Gadzuric.  I wouldn't mind either, but both are expiring contracts on teams without other expendable ones.

The vet min free agents available, both at big and at wing, will give the functional equivalent of those guys.

So unless Josh Howard happens, I don't see Sheed's contract turning into anything better than what we can get in free agency, unfortunately.

[Chris]

I'd love to have Wallace stay, as frankly I think our need at big man is more pressing than our need on the wing.  Wings are the most replaceable players in the league, and you can generally get a reasonable wing cheaper and easier than a reasonable center.

I expect nothing from Perk this year.  He had ACL surgery in July...I've never heard of any player in any sport recovering from a torn ACL within 5 months.  Even if he's back on the court in 7 - 8 months, which means Feb or March, he's not approaching anywhere near full strength until the season is over.  I don't think you can bank on that.

I think KG and O'Neal could be a great starting frontcourt and Baby is a reasonable 3rd big.  But if either of the starters go down, Baby isn't a full-time solution as a replacement starter and there is no one else in the pipeline.  Wallace (or another playing caliber big) is a huge need for us right now.

And if KG gets hurt, no shot at a title.  He continues to be the most overlooked player I've ever seen outside of the organization, where the other players recognize that he's the most irreplaceable guy on the team.  The difference between how the Celtics play with and without Garnett is startling.  If anything, that underscores the need for another big to help make sure that Garnett is healthy come playoff time.

Leon Powe had a torn ACL, and microfracture surgery, and was back on the court in 9 months...but from what I have read his injury was much worse than Perk's (microfracture is very tough).

Wes Welker was running full speed in mini-camp a couple months ago, after tearing his ACL in January.

Al Jefferson was playing regular minutes in the first game of the season last year on October 28th, after tearing his ACL on February 10.  That is about 8 months.

If it takes Perkins 8 months to get back on the court, that puts him at March.  Still plenty of time before the playoffs.  And, if you happen to believe Perk is tougher, and a quicker healer than Al Jefferson (possibly with the help of some pharmaceuticals), I think February, or early is not ridiculous.

So, as long as the C's can find a decent 4th big to hold down the fort, I think they are just fine up front.

[Who]

Not sure this Celtics team is good enough to win without Perkins.

If he can't play this season ... that might be it for the Celtics' title hopes.