Wall Street Journal compares LeBron to Bird

[buzz]

All I know is that LeBron is already the best basketball player I have ever seen.

Magic's floor vision with Michael's athleticism in Malone's body.

He is a freak of nature.

[Onslaught]

All I know is that LeBron is already the best basketball player I have ever seen.

Magic's floor vision with Michael's athleticism in Malone's body.

He is a freak of nature.

All those things are true. But I'm not sure about his drive or killer instinct yet. I'm not saying he couldn't have it but I've not seen enough of it to put him over the top of MJ, Kobe or Magic and others.

[buzz]

Two quick hits, onslaught...

1. I think we have seen it, already. Upset the Pistons to make the Finals with that epic performance three years ago. Almost took out a favored Celts team two years ago and dropped 40 in Game 7 in Boston, been carrying a relatively weak supporting cast on his back to the best record in the NBA two years running. Last year was just a bad matchup with Orlando, and I think he may have also been in the place where MJ was in the late 80s, where his teammates were just start struck and would kinda just sit back and watch him take over. I won't penalize him for that.

2. Just a point of clarification that isn't really in relation to your reply, but important nonetheless. When I say he is already the best, it isn't a resume thing. He doesn't have the rings. I just don't think anyone I have seen (since 1980) has ever played at the level this kid is playing at now. And he's like, what... 24 years old? My goodness.

[RebusRankin]

Elgin and Oscar are the two players I wish their was more film on.

[Onslaught]

Two quick hits, onslaught...

1. I think we have seen it, already. Upset the Pistons to make the Finals with that epic performance three years ago. Almost took out a favored Celts team two years ago and dropped 40 in Game 7 in Boston, been carrying a relatively weak supporting cast on his back to the best record in the NBA two years running. Last year was just a bad matchup with Orlando, and I think he may have also been in the place where MJ was in the late 80s, where his teammates were just start struck and would kinda just sit back and watch him take over. I won't penalize him for that.

2. Just a point of clarification that isn't really in relation to your reply, but important nonetheless. When I say he is already the best, it isn't a resume thing. He doesn't have the rings. I just don't think anyone I have seen (since 1980) has ever played at the level this kid is playing at now. And he's like, what... 24 years old? My goodness.

The Easter Finals was impressive. But I put a ton of blame on the Pistons "D" on that one. They didn't even try to stop him from going in the lane over and over again. They played
like trash.

I do think he'll probably wind up being the overall best in the end however. I'm just not putting him there yet.

[TitleMaster]

only reason why we remember Elgin Baylor

I think the only reason why we remember him is because we're all students of b-ball history and thus, seem to have an obligation to enshrine him as one of Russell's key victims. The idea being that even MJ couldn't stop the Celtics dynasty.

To pretty much everyone else, Oscar Robertson was the triple-double man and Wilt Chamberlain, the 100 points fellow. Baylor isn't in the conversation.

[Donoghus]

only reason why we remember Elgin Baylor

I think the only reason why we remember him is because we're all students of b-ball history and thus, seem to have an obligation to enshrine him as one of Russell's key victims. The idea being that even MJ couldn't stop the Celtics dynasty.

To pretty much everyone else, Oscar Robertson was the triple-double man and Wilt Chamberlain, the 100 points fellow. Baylor isn't in the conversation.

To me, he's the tragic character who retired just before the Lakers finally broke through and won the title.  That's the first thing that always comes to mind when I think of Baylor.

Big O is the triple double guy, though.

[dlpin]

Two quick hits, onslaught...

1. I think we have seen it, already. Upset the Pistons to make the Finals with that epic performance three years ago. Almost took out a favored Celts team two years ago and dropped 40 in Game 7 in Boston, been carrying a relatively weak supporting cast on his back to the best record in the NBA two years running. Last year was just a bad matchup with Orlando, and I think he may have also been in the place where MJ was in the late 80s, where his teammates were just start struck and would kinda just sit back and watch him take over. I won't penalize him for that.

2. Just a point of clarification that isn't really in relation to your reply, but important nonetheless. When I say he is already the best, it isn't a resume thing. He doesn't have the rings. I just don't think anyone I have seen (since 1980) has ever played at the level this kid is playing at now. And he's like, what... 24 years old? My goodness.

In the year he made the finals, Lebron shot 41% from the field and averaged 3.3 turnovers a game. Other than that game 5, often he wasn't even the best player on the cavs.  Against the celtics a year later, other than game 7, he completely sucked. Im not saying this to say he isnt great. But people create this myth that he was carrying that team all by himself, when before last year he flat out sucked for most of the playoffs and was carried by his teammates.

Last year he had a phenomenal playoffs, but its not like hedo, rashard and lee are that much better than varejao, ilgauskas and mo williams.

[buzz]

In the year he made the finals, Lebron shot 41% from the field and averaged 3.3 turnovers a game. Other than that game 5, often he wasn't even the best player on the cavs.  Against the celtics a year later, other than game 7, he completely sucked. Im not saying this to say he isnt great. But people create this myth that he was carrying that team all by himself, when before last year he flat out sucked for most of the playoffs and was carried by his teammates.

Last year he had a phenomenal playoffs, but its not like hedo, rashard and lee are that much better than varejao, ilgauskas and mo williams.

Other than the stats, I disagree with pretty much every word of that.

FTR, I'm saying that he is the best player I have ever seen NOW, in this current season. I referenced the playoff history in response to a point made about whether or not he has displayed a killer instinct. Bringing up 3-4 year old stats don't really speak to my point here.

Having Mo Williams as your 2nd best player is absolutely horrifying. No way were his teammates on previous Cavs teams as good as DHo's supporting cast of a year ago.

As to the myth, I actually think that works for LeBron and not against him. The Holy Trinity of Larry/Magic/MJ has been completely mythologized to the point where they cannot ever be criticized. Magic was a turnover machine with poor outside shooting and soft defense. Larry had little athleticism and couldn't guard a chair, as Barkley put it. MJ was one of the most selfish players ever, had the refs in his pocket and played in a weak era with no legitimate rival teams.

They are all obviously elite HOFers, but you get the idea. I used to have to argue tooth and nail with fellow Celtics fans in the early 90s that, yes, Jordan is better than the Great Larry Bird. Because it was true.

And when you look at what LeBron has done with almost no help whatsoever... no Pippen, no McHale, no Kareem, no Worthy, no Parish, no Rodman, no Kukoc and not even a DJ... well... personally, I just think he is getting held to a rougher standard.

That'll change when he starts winning rings, but IMO, he is already playing at a higher level than anyone I have ever seen.

[dlpin]

The "no help whatsoever" includes a number of players that would either start or be the top 6th man in most other contenders.

And again, given that my point was about playoffs you mentioned, I don't see what is there to disagree with.

People talk about his game 5 against the pistons, but ignore his game 6, when he was 3-11, and the cavs were saved by Gibson's 31 points. Similarly, people talk about that game 7 against the celtics, but forget his 10 turnover game, or his game 3 performance when he went 5-16 and joe smith saved them by going 7 for 8.

Sure, his help is not the same quality that Bird, Magic or MJ had, but his opponents aren't the same quality either.

[Onslaught]

In the year he made the finals, Lebron shot 41% from the field and averaged 3.3 turnovers a game. Other than that game 5, often he wasn't even the best player on the cavs.  Against the celtics a year later, other than game 7, he completely sucked. Im not saying this to say he isnt great. But people create this myth that he was carrying that team all by himself, when before last year he flat out sucked for most of the playoffs and was carried by his teammates.

Last year he had a phenomenal playoffs, but its not like hedo, rashard and lee are that much better than varejao, ilgauskas and mo williams.

Other than the stats, I disagree with pretty much every word of that.

FTR, I'm saying that he is the best player I have ever seen NOW, in this current season. I referenced the playoff history in response to a point made about whether or not he has displayed a killer instinct. Bringing up 3-4 year old stats don't really speak to my point here.

Having Mo Williams as your 2nd best player is absolutely horrifying. No way were his teammates on previous Cavs teams as good as DHo's supporting cast of a year ago.

As to the myth, I actually think that works for LeBron and not against him. The Holy Trinity of Larry/Magic/MJ has been completely mythologized to the point where they cannot ever be criticized. Magic was a turnover machine with poor outside shooting and soft defense. Larry had little athleticism and couldn't guard a chair, as Barkley put it. MJ was one of the most selfish players ever, had the refs in his pocket and played in a weak era with no legitimate rival teams.

They are all obviously elite HOFers, but you get the idea. I used to have to argue tooth and nail with fellow Celtics fans in the early 90s that, yes, Jordan is better than the Great Larry Bird. Because it was true.

And when you look at what LeBron has done with almost no help whatsoever... no Pippen, no McHale, no Kareem, no Worthy, no Parish, no Rodman, no Kukoc and not even a DJ... well... personally, I just think he is getting held to a rougher standard.

That'll change when he starts winning rings, but IMO, he is already playing at a higher level than anyone I have ever seen.

The teams in the 90's are way stronger then the ones now. What great team has LBJ gone up against over and over again? Who's his rival?

And do you think he's not got the refs and NBA in his pocket?

And Bird didn't have all those people to pass to in his first year in Boston . And he came in and turned the team around all by himself.

[RebusRankin]

Bird went to a team in 1979 that had two straight losing seasons and that was coming off a 29 win season. No Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Walton. An aging and past his prime Cowens. Took that team to 60 wins in an EC with a very, very good Sixers team, a very good Bucks team and a good San Antonio team. LeBron went to a bad Cavs team and could make the play-offs for his first two seasons.

[BballTim]

As to the myth, I actually think that works for LeBron and not against him. The Holy Trinity of Larry/Magic/MJ has been completely mythologized to the point where they cannot ever be criticized. Magic was a turnover machine with poor outside shooting and soft defense. Larry had little athleticism and couldn't guard a chair, as Barkley put it. MJ was one of the most selfish players ever, had the refs in his pocket and played in a weak era with no legitimate rival teams.

  Larry was a good defender before the injuries. I think he was 2nd team all defensive 3 times. He wasn't a great 1v1 defender but he could disrupt most offenses by  guarding the passing lanes. Magic had a 3/1 assist-turnover ratio which isn't bad. Agree with your MJ comments.

They are all obviously elite HOFers, but you get the idea. I used to have to argue tooth and nail with fellow Celtics fans in the early 90s that, yes, Jordan is better than the Great Larry Bird. Because it was true.

  It was an opinion. MJ was better than Bird at basketball aside from shooting, passing and rebounding. He put up better numbers than Bird but it was clear that a) putting up big numbers was important to Jordan and b) Bird could have put up much better stats than he did if he chose to. LeBron's like MJ in this regard. Much better athlete than Bird but without the court vision or anywhere near the skill level.

And when you look at what LeBron has done with almost no help whatsoever... no Pippen, no McHale, no Kareem, no Worthy, no Parish, no Rodman, no Kukoc and not even a DJ... well... personally, I just think he is getting held to a rougher standard.

  OTOH, he's never going to face a team with Kareem/Magic/Worthy or Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ, or even a team with MJ/Pippin/Rodman.

That'll change when he starts winning rings, but IMO, he is already playing at a higher level than anyone I have ever seen.

  If you look at the way Bird (three straight MVPs) or MJ dominated the league, he's not there yet.

[Onslaught]

To me Bird's first year on the Celtics is still the most impressive single season turn around in NBA history.

[Andy Jick]

To me Bird's first year on the Celtics is still the most impressive single season turn around in NBA history.

fewer teams...league wasn't watered down by expansion...league didn't have young players who didn't belong at the NBA level...  yeah, what larry did was quite amazing.  i respect lebron's abilities.  but larry is not only gifted, but he was a winner with an amazing drive to succeed.  i do not believe lebron has that singular focus yet, not the way larry did.