Wall Street Journal compares LeBron to Bird

[dlpin]

As I said, I am not trying to penalize eras here. First, you can cut my contribution to this discussion off at 1980 or so, when I started watching hoops. I am not comparing any of these dudes to Wilt or Russell, because I really have no basis for doing so. One could also certainly assume that 1960s or 1980s players could go through the same strength training, etc...

But fair to say that Lebron is athletic enough to be elite in any era. And that Larry was not particularly athletic, particularly by the current era's standards.

And I would like to clear up a couple of outright fallacies people are throwing out there. First, outside of a couple of late 80s/early 90s teams, defenses are unquestionably more physical today. The idea that the league used to be much tougher defensively is something I reject out of hand. And I am a bit shocked that fans of this current Celtics team, who won a title by being thugs to the core, would even make that claim. Kendrick Perkins? James Posey? PJ Brown? What team were you guys watching two years ago?

And as to Lebron not having to deal with hand-checking, whose game do you think hand-checking benefits more, Larry Bird or the guy who is 30 pounds bigger and twice as strong?  You let Lebron hand-check people, and he is the DPOY, rather than just 2nd in voting like he is now. I shudder to think of what Lebron could do to a guy like Larry if he were allowed to do that on defense.

All good.

This proves beyond any doubt just how absolutely out of touch you are.

The celtics are considered "thugs" now because of today's rules.

Evidence A:
McHale's clothesline of Rambis wasn't even a flagrant.

The fact is that a set of rules that benefit players that drive are in place today. Lebron wouldn't get away with half of what he does today without the defensive 3 seconds, the larger charge area, and the hand check rules.

A player that depends on the jumpshot a lot more will be a lot more successful in that era than a player that needed to drive to score. Just compare the ft/fg relationship for Jordan and for Lebron.

The bottom line is that Lebron, as amazing as he is, has a clear deficiency and a clear way to be stopped: force him to shoot jumpers and he becomes mediocre. You've yet to address this: again, he is 29% from 10-15 feet and 39% from 16-23.

As for the teams bird and mj played on, you've yet to address the simple issue that back then you needed stacked teams because you were playing against stacked teams. If anything, the talent dilution that has been created through expansion and luxury tax helps players like Lebron, no hurt him.

[Witch-King]

Man, how of you dudes are wearing Larry Bird underoos right now?  

Come ooooon!

What do you think things would look like if Larry/Magic/MJ had to play with LeBron's teammates, and LeBron got to play with theirs?

Also, I don't want to penalize eras here, but it's a much tougher game defensively now. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, with greater recovery speed. I've heard it said by a former long-time player that the biggest difference between now and then is that it used to be team offense and one-on-one defense, and now it is one-on-one offense and team defense.

Well, unlike Bird or Magic, LeBron hasn't seen a one-on-one defense in his entire life! He is well suited to playing 80s team offense against 00s team defense. His athleticism and strength are off the charts. Watch him, then watch some tape of a 1980s game. He makes that era look like a rec league at the Y. He even makes Jordan's dunking look rather pedestrian.

No kidding... see for yourself:

First, LeBron destroying everyone in his path
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=9-9TAoPPgKQ

Then Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!videos=a8Y9Gg9XXUY&v=H8M2NgjvicA

Now, obviously, both guys can dunk a bit. But note how Lebron is just so much higher, with dunks so much more explosive and, well... vicious.

He is a scary athletic MONSTER of a guy. Don't give me this junk about LeBron would be scared to drive the lane back in the day. In most eras, matador defense was the order of the day in games that teams scored in the 110s on average. And let's not forget that the guy is as big as Malone was, and +/- 10 pounds with guys like Laimbeer, Mahorn, Mourning, Parish, Rodman, Hakeem and even Ewing.

You put LBJ and Larry on equally talented teams, and LeBron would eat Larry up on both ends. Larry just not athletic enough, not big enough, not strong enough. Good chance Larry would have to choose between foul trouble or getting smashed on if he had to check LeBron (especially in single coverage).

I got nothing against playing intelligent, unselfish ball, and I suspect that LeBron doesn't either. But at the end of the day, athleticism rules in this league. And if you have both, as LeBron does, look out below.

If I want to see a bunch of slow unathletic people with good fundamentals and high hoops IQ, I will watch the WNBA, or the Ivy League, or maybe just Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Michael Jordan was much more graceful at finishing around the rim, as opposed to the powerful dunks that have characterized LeBron James...like Jordan, Vince, Kobe (ie. great dunkers/scorers) LeBron will eventually have to change his scoring style as he ages or else his body will surely wear down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWhxFBvhv8

[buzz]

This proves beyond any doubt just how absolutely out of touch you are.

The celtics are considered "thugs" now because of today's rules.

Evidence A:
McHale's clothesline of Rambis wasn't even a flagrant.

The fact is that a set of rules that benefit players that drive are in place today. Lebron wouldn't get away with half of what he does today without the defensive 3 seconds, the larger charge area, and the hand check rules.

A player that depends on the jumpshot a lot more will be a lot more successful in that era than a player that needed to drive to score. Just compare the ft/fg relationship for Jordan and for Lebron.

The bottom line is that Lebron, as amazing as he is, has a clear deficiency and a clear way to be stopped: force him to shoot jumpers and he becomes mediocre. You've yet to address this: again, he is 29% from 10-15 feet and 39% from 16-23.

As for the teams bird and mj played on, you've yet to address the simple issue that back then you needed stacked teams because you were playing against stacked teams. If anything, the talent dilution that has been created through expansion and luxury tax helps players like Lebron, no hurt him.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

2008 Celtics not thugs?

It was LeBron and not MJ who feasted on expansion teams?

And It was MJ who beat a bunch of stacked teams in the 90s?

I think we are done here, ****. No need to reply. I won't read it.

[buzz]

Michael Jordan was much more graceful at finishing around the rim, as opposed to the powerful dunks that have characterized LeBron James...like Jordan, Vince, Kobe (ie. great dunkers/scorers) LeBron will eventually have to change his scoring style as he ages or else his body will surely wear down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWhxFBvhv8

Perhaps true... but then again, in actuality, it was Bird whose body wore down early.

IMO, you have to have the right frame for your game. Guys like Pierce and Malone have proven that you can play a violent style a long time if you are built for it.

And LeBron is. With that said, the improvements the guy needs to make are relatively modest  ones. Scary to think he can, and likely will, be even better than he is already.

[Onslaught]

This proves beyond any doubt just how absolutely out of touch you are.

The celtics are considered "thugs" now because of today's rules.

Evidence A:
McHale's clothesline of Rambis wasn't even a flagrant.

The fact is that a set of rules that benefit players that drive are in place today. Lebron wouldn't get away with half of what he does today without the defensive 3 seconds, the larger charge area, and the hand check rules.

A player that depends on the jumpshot a lot more will be a lot more successful in that era than a player that needed to drive to score. Just compare the ft/fg relationship for Jordan and for Lebron.

The bottom line is that Lebron, as amazing as he is, has a clear deficiency and a clear way to be stopped: force him to shoot jumpers and he becomes mediocre. You've yet to address this: again, he is 29% from 10-15 feet and 39% from 16-23.

As for the teams bird and mj played on, you've yet to address the simple issue that back then you needed stacked teams because you were playing against stacked teams. If anything, the talent dilution that has been created through expansion and luxury tax helps players like Lebron, no hurt him.

2008 Celtics not thugs?

Not even CLOSE to thugs.

They would get killed (literally) by the Bad Boy Pistons, Pat Riley's Knicks and 80's 76res and Celtics. Only Perk could hold his own and even he'd get knocked out.

[Onslaught]

Michael Jordan was much more graceful at finishing around the rim, as opposed to the powerful dunks that have characterized LeBron James...like Jordan, Vince, Kobe (ie. great dunkers/scorers) LeBron will eventually have to change his scoring style as he ages or else his body will surely wear down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWhxFBvhv8

Perhaps true... but then again, in actuality, it was Bird whose body wore down early.

IMO, you have to have the right frame for your game. Guys like Pierce and Malone have proven that you can play a violent style a long time if you are built for it.

And LeBron is. With that said, the improvements the guy needs to make are relatively modest  ones. Scary to think he can, and likely will, be even better than he is already.

Turns out Bird had a defective back from birth. And a heart condition too. He didn't really "wear down early" so much as he was lucky he ever played in the first place as long as he did.

[Fan from VT]

I can't say which player is better right now. But consider this for the "teammate" argument (and remember, we're talking about the version of the player of the year in question, not the prime years of the player):

Bird's team in '85-'86 would have been something like:

Artis Gilmore
Kevin Willis
Vern Fleming
Rodney McCray
Joe Barry Carrol

Vs. Lebron's team today (if he had Bird's teammates) would  be something like:

Duncan
Horford
Hinrich
Andre Miller (but if miller made all-defense second team)
Brad Miller.

[Who]

Very few players have been as dominant as LeBron James in as many facets of the game -- with his scoring + his passing + his defense + his rebounding -- his elite level talent in each of these areas (and overall dominance) separates him from several of the greatest players in the history of this league, and, already puts him in the discussion for Top 10 player of All-Time.

Considering his age and the number of years he has left it's very likely he'll climb that list even further.

[Onslaught]

Very few players have been as dominant as LeBron James in as many facets of the game -- with his scoring + his passing + his defense + his rebounding -- his elite level talent in each of these areas (and overall dominance) separates him from several of the greatest players in the history of this league, and, already puts him in the discussion for Top 10 player of All-Time.

Considering his age and the number of years he has left it's very likely he'll climb that list even further.

I agree. As long as he's never hurt I think he could turn out to be the best. But he's not at that point yet in my book.

[buzz]

I can't say which player is better right now. But consider this for the "teammate" argument (and remember, we're talking about the version of the player of the year in question, not the prime years of the player):

Bird's team in '85-'86 would have been something like:

Artis Gilmore
Kevin Willis
Vern Fleming
Rodney McCray
Joe Barry Carrol

Vs. Lebron's team today (if he had Bird's teammates) would  be something like:

Duncan
Horford
Hinrich
Andre Miller (but if miller made all-defense second team)
Brad Miller.

Good stuff... LOL.

[dlpin]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

2008 Celtics not thugs?

It was LeBron and not MJ who feasted on expansion teams?

And It was MJ who beat a bunch of stacked teams in the 90s?

I think we are done here, ****. No need to reply. I won't read it.

Don't join a message board if you have to get your toys and go home once you can't back up your opinions with evidence.

If you ever decide to change your attitude, here are the things that you should answer:

- If the 08 celtics were thugs and dirtier than any team in the 80s, show the play that comes close to McHale's clothesline, or just the average bad boys' defense.

- If interior defense is so much tougher now, why is the average number of blocks per game per team this season a bit over 4.5, while in 85 it was over 5.3? In 1986 the bullets led the league with 8.7 blocks per game, this season the bulls lead the league at 6.1 per game.

- I never said anything about feasting on expansion teams. I said that expansion diluted talent. So Jordan needed another all star to win it all, but he was going against teams with 3 or 4 all stars himself. Show me a team that Lebron has beaten in the playoffs that is better than the 91 lakers, the 92 blazers, the 90s knicks or the 90s pacers.

- If Lebron is so flawless, why don't you address his 29% from 10-15 feet and his 39% from 16-23 feet?


I have no problems saying that Lebron is among the top 10 players of all time. I do have a problem saying he is the best of all time, which is what saying that he is better than jordan would mean.

[buzz]

Not even CLOSE to thugs.

They would get killed (literally) by the Bad Boy Pistons, Pat Riley's Knicks and 80's 76res and Celtics. Only Perk could hold his own and even he'd get knocked out.

Heck yes they are. It was of great satisfaction telling all these Lakers fans here in Socal that we were gonna beat them because their team wasn't man enough to deal with a bunch of bullies like the Celtics.

And that is exactly how it happened.

And LOL @ the Bad Boys being tough guys. Being dirty not the same as being tough. Rich Boy Laimbeer didn't even get a hand up when skinny Chief went all Hong Kong Phooey on him.

Perkins could take that whole franchise in a street fight.

Shoot... that whole team was a bunch of thug bullies and I loved it. Even little Rondo will step up to slap a b-tch if it needs to be done. Go ask Brad Miller's face about that.

I mean, are we talking about the same James Posey and PJ Brown here? LOL

[Onslaught]

Not even CLOSE to thugs.

They would get killed (literally) by the Bad Boy Pistons, Pat Riley's Knicks and 80's 76res and Celtics. Only Perk could hold his own and even he'd get knocked out.

Heck yes they are. It was of great satisfaction telling all these Lakers fans here in Socal that we were gonna beat them because their team wasn't man enough to deal with a bunch of bullies like the Celtics.

And that is exactly how it happened.

And LOL @ the Bad Boys being tough guys. Being dirty not the same as being tough. Rich Boy Laimbeer didn't even get a hand up when skinny Chief went all Hong Kong Phooey on him.

Perkins could take that whole franchise in a street fight.

Shoot... that whole team was a bunch of thug bullies and I loved it. Even little Rondo will step up to slap a b-tch if it needs to be done. Go ask Brad Miller's face about that.

I mean, are we talking about the same James Posey and PJ Brown here? LOL

Knocking around the modern Lakers in no way makes you a thug. A thug in todays game perhaps. Because the NBA won't let teams be real thugs anymore.

I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong if you think the modern Celtics could push around teams from back then.

[Fan from VT]

I can't say which player is better right now. But consider this for the "teammate" argument (and remember, we're talking about the version of the player of the year in question, not the prime years of the player):

Bird's team in '85-'86 would have been something like:

Artis Gilmore
Kevin Willis
Vern Fleming
Rodney McCray
Joe Barry Carrol

Vs. Lebron's team today (if he had Bird's teammates) would  be something like:

Duncan
Horford
Hinrich
Andre Miller (but if miller made all-defense second team)
Brad Miller.

Good stuff... LOL.

Thanks. It was surprisingly hard to come up with. Now guess who is who!

[Witch-King]

Very few players have been as dominant as LeBron James in as many facets of the game -- with his scoring + his passing + his defense + his rebounding -- his elite level talent in each of these areas (and overall dominance) separates him from several of the greatest players in the history of this league, and, already puts him in the discussion for Top 10 player of All-Time.

Considering his age and the number of years he has left it's very likely he'll climb that list even further.

I agree. As long as he's never hurt I think he could turn out to be the best. But he's not at that point yet in my book.

Agreed. As far as scoring is concerned, no player that isn't a center has come close to matching Jordan's efficiency. He has had games where he scored well over 50 points shooting above 50% from the field (see the Bulls vs the Magic during Shaq's rookie season). However, as many people have already mentioned, LeBron James is a better passer and rebounder, or at least has averaged better passing numbers during the course of his career. At 6'8" with that skill-set LeBron James has relegated players such as Ben Wallace (a former NBA champion with the Pistons) to the bench of the Cavaliers, though the Cavaliers still couldn't make it past the Magic with all the potential they had as a defensive team...