Wall Street Journal compares LeBron to Bird

[PLamb]

To me Bird's first year on the Celtics is still the most impressive single season turn around in NBA history.

fewer teams...league wasn't watered down by expansion...league didn't have young players who didn't belong at the NBA level...  yeah, what larry did was quite amazing.  i respect lebron's abilities.  but larry is not only gifted, but he was a winner with an amazing drive to succeed.  i do not believe lebron has that singular focus yet, not the way larry did.

And to add to the Magic-Larry mystique, what Magic did in the playoffs in that same 1980 year is unparalleled in the history of the NBA for a person at that age

At 20 years old while being a rookie, Magic averaged 18.3 PPG, 10.5 RPG, 9.3 APG, 3 STPG while shooting 51.8% in the playoffs and winning the Finals MVP while playing 5 different positions and ending with a 42 point explosion while playing center in the deciding game

Top that LeBron

Oops that's right he can't

[buzz]

The teams in the 90's are way stronger then the ones now. What great team has LBJ gone up against over and over again? Who's his rival?

And do you think he's not got the refs and NBA in his pocket?

And Bird didn't have all those people to pass to in his first year in Boston . And he came in and turned the team around all by himself.

What was the best team the Jordan Bulls ever beat?

I would have to go with the '98 Pacers, which only happened because the refs allowed Pippen to mug Mark Jackson all over the floor.

The 00s had to have at least 12 teams that were better than any 90s team outside of Chicago, including the Celtics of a few years ago. Shoot... you could probably get close to 12 just from the Lakers and Spurs alone.

I know all about Bird's rookie season (when he still had Cowens, Tiny and Max), but fact of the matter is, the current LeBron would eat Larry Bird alive, even in his prime.

[buzz]

The "no help whatsoever" includes a number of players that would either start or be the top 6th man in most other contenders.

And again, given that my point was about playoffs you mentioned, I don't see what is there to disagree with.

People talk about his game 5 against the pistons, but ignore his game 6, when he was 3-11, and the cavs were saved by Gibson's 31 points. Similarly, people talk about that game 7 against the celtics, but forget his 10 turnover game, or his game 3 performance when he went 5-16 and joe smith saved them by going 7 for 8.

Sure, his help is not the same quality that Bird, Magic or MJ had, but his opponents aren't the same quality either.

Guy, he was 21 years old. And he dragged a crap team to the NBA Finals. Everyone else mentioned here was still in college at that time.

And hey, you think maybe a rookie Boobie Gibson got a few open looks with 3 opponents shadowing LeBron's every move from the time he got off the team bus? Or that this same defensive attention led him to have some bad shooting nights?

Just to recap, prior to this year, his teammates were GARBAGE. They are still a crap supporting cast even now. Hope he flees that crap franchise for a real team, just for the good of the game.

JMO.

[buzz]

Bird went to a team in 1979 that had two straight losing seasons and that was coming off a 29 win season. No Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Walton. An aging and past his prime Cowens. Took that team to 60 wins in an EC with a very, very good Sixers team, a very good Bucks team and a good San Antonio team. LeBron went to a bad Cavs team and could make the play-offs for his first two seasons.

I'm less interested in comparing a 23-year old Larry to a 19-year old LeBron (as you are doing here), and more interested in making the claim that the 25-year old LeBron is a better basketball player than any player since 1980 has ever been at any age.

[dlpin]

What was the best team the Jordan Bulls ever beat?

I would have to go with the '98 Pacers, which only happened because the refs allowed Pippen to mug Mark Jackson all over the floor.

The 00s had to have at least 12 teams that were better than any 90s team outside of Chicago, including the Celtics of a few years ago. Shoot... you could probably get close to 12 just from the Lakers and Spurs alone.

I know all about Bird's rookie season (when he still had Cowens, Tiny and Max), but fact of the matter is, the current LeBron would eat Larry Bird alive, even in his prime.

Except that of those 12 teams that were better than any 90s teams, 10 of them played in the western conference.


The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are substantially better than any team other than the celtics that Lebron has faced in the eastern conference. The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are head and shoulders above that 07 Pistons team or the 09 magic team.

[buzz]

Except that of those 12 teams that were better than any 90s teams, 10 of them played in the western conference.


The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are substantially better than any team other than the celtics that Lebron has faced in the eastern conference. The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are head and shoulders above that 07 Pistons team or the 09 magic team.

Oh, come ooooon! How many straw men are you gonna make me fight in this thread, myang?


I said MJ played in a weak era without a legit rival and it was true. It wasn't even a point about Lebron. Now... if LeBron played in MJ's place on the 90s Bulls, IMO he'd already have some rings. 

Ditto Kobe, who is another guy just as good as MJ/Larry/Magic/LBJ.

[dlpin]

Guy, he was 21 years old. And he dragged a crap team to the NBA Finals. Everyone else mentioned here was still in college at that time.

And hey, you think maybe a rookie Boobie Gibson got a few open looks with 3 opponents shadowing LeBron's every move from the time he got off the team bus? Or that this same defensive attention led him to have some bad shooting nights?

Just to recap, prior to this year, his teammates were GARBAGE. They are still a crap supporting cast even now. Hope he flees that crap franchise for a real team, just for the good of the game.

JMO.

First, you can't have it both ways. You can't at the same time excuse his flaws because he was young and then still say he carried that team.

Second, as I already showed, he didn't "carry" the team. In fact, against the pistons and the celtics he was only in position to have those games because his teammates carried him in the games he disappeared.

Third, this whole thing about his teammates is garbage. In 07 and 08 Ilgauskas would start in any eastern playoff team with the exception of the celtics and the magic. Varejao last year would be a starter on the celtics playoff team and was better than any 6th man the magic had. Mo Williams was a lot better than Rafer Alston and would start in any eastern playoff team with the exception of the celtics, again. They are not a great supporting cast, but, in the eastern conference, only the celtics were deeper these past two seasons. Ilgauskas-Mo Williams- Varejao - West might not be a great line up, but it's not like Lewis-Hedo-Lee-Alston is a show stopper either.

[dlpin]

Except that of those 12 teams that were better than any 90s teams, 10 of them played in the western conference.


The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are substantially better than any team other than the celtics that Lebron has faced in the eastern conference. The 90's Pacers, Knicks and Magic are head and shoulders above that 07 Pistons team or the 09 magic team.

Oh, come ooooon! How many straw men are you gonna make me fight in this thread, myang?


I said MJ played in a weak era without a legit rival and it was true. It wasn't even a point about Lebron. Now... if LeBron played in MJ's place on the 90s Bulls, IMO he'd already have some rings. 

Ditto Kobe, who is another guy just as good as MJ/Larry/Magic/LBJ.

It's not a straw man if it is directly related to the topic. What does it matter if there are great Lakers/Spurs/Mavs/Suns teams this decade if Lebron has only faced one of them and been completely destroyed?


Isn't the argument that the reason Lebron hasn't won a title that his supporting cast is worse than Jordan's and Bird's? Well, Jordan and Bird had better casts, but they faced much better competition than Lebron. And you can only beat the teams you play, hence, let's look at who they faced in the playoffs. The fact is that Lebron is 0-3 any time he faced any decent teams in the playoffs. And before you mention his age again, Magic was finals mvp at 20.


Lebron is the best at what he is good at (driving to the basket and finishing or kicking out). But he is mediocre at best at what he isn't good at, which is jumpers beyond 10 feet and playing in the post.

The bottom line is that if Lebron needs a team as good as the ones Bird and MJ played on to win, then almost by definition they are better than him. Back then you needed stacked teams because you were playing against stacked teams, as expansion, luxury taxes, and the maximum salary frenzy hadn't hit the league.

[buzz]

First, you can't have it both ways. You can't at the same time excuse his flaws because he was young and then still say he carried that team.

Second, as I already showed, he didn't "carry" the team. In fact, against the pistons and the celtics he was only in position to have those games because his teammates carried him in the games he disappeared.

Third, this whole thing about his teammates is garbage. In 07 and 08 Ilgauskas would start in any eastern playoff team with the exception of the celtics and the magic. Varejao last year would be a starter on the celtics playoff team and was better than any 6th man the magic had. Mo Williams was a lot better than Rafer Alston and would start in any eastern playoff team with the exception of the celtics, again. They are not a great supporting cast, but, in the eastern conference, only the celtics were deeper these past two seasons. Ilgauskas-Mo Williams- Varejao - West might not be a great line up, but it's not like Lewis-Hedo-Lee-Alston isn't a show stopper either.

#1, I do appreciate this discussion. Good stuff.

#2, With due respect, you are out of your [dang] mind!   Yes, LeBron carried a weak supporting cast to the Finals. Doesn't matter if he was flawed or not. It happened. Shoot, they didn't even have Mo yet at that point. Their 2nd best player was Larry Hughes, who IIRC, was injured for the Finals. LOL @ Larry Hughes being the 2nd best player on a Finals team. That guy is HORRIBLE.

#3, You are relying too much on box scores and not enough on Xs and Os. You are citing a bunch of individual game stats as if they prove LBJ got carried to the Finals by his teammates, but as already mentioned, much of those stats are a product of LeBron drawing so much defensive attention at all times. The opponents defense is broken down the second a guy like LeBron steps on the floor.

#4, No hate to Ilgauskas. He was a legit starting center. But -- unlike the 90s ironically -- there are maybe 3 centers today who even matter. I mean, Nenad Krstic could start at center for most teams today. Big deal. Having some teammates who could start for bad teams is not the same as having impact, HOF-caliber players that take the pressure off you. No one double teams Big Z, or Mo Williams. And they don't even cover Varejao at all (who is a decent post defender). What do you think it would have done to Larry's game to have teammates that did not even have to be covered? For most of his career so far, LeBron has had at least two of them on the floor at all times, lol.

[buzz]

It's not a straw man if it is directly related to the topic. What does it matter if there are great Lakers/Spurs/Mavs/Suns teams this decade if Lebron has only faced one of them and been completely destroyed?


Isn't the argument that the reason Lebron hasn't won a title that his supporting cast is worse than Jordan's and Bird's? Well, Jordan and Bird had better casts, but they faced much better competition than Lebron. And you can only beat the teams you play, hence, let's look at who they faced in the playoffs. The fact is that Lebron is 0-3 any time he faced any decent teams in the playoffs. And before you mention his age again, Magic was finals mvp at 20.


Lebron is the best at what he is good at (driving to the basket and finishing or kicking out). But he is mediocre at best at what he isn't good at, which is jumpers beyond 10 feet and playing in the post.

The bottom line is that if Lebron needs a team as good as the ones Bird and MJ played on to win, then almost by definition they are better than him. Back then you needed stacked teams because you were playing against stacked teams, as expansion, luxury taxes, and the maximum salary frenzy hadn't hit the league.

Some quick hits...

You are knocking LeBron's jumpshot, but he is shooting better on 3s this year than Larry did in 4 of his first 5 seasons. Despite playing with Parish and McHale in all 4 of those years, Larry did not even crack 29% on 3s. Meanwhile, LeBron has never shot below 29% on 3s in his 7-year career. I bet you did not know that... speaking of mythology and all.

Second, it's not a resume argument. I'm not counting trophies here. The scoreboard can do that well enough without me. I'm saying the dude is currently playing at a level that Larry et al never reached. I do not say that lightly.

[BballTim]

Bird went to a team in 1979 that had two straight losing seasons and that was coming off a 29 win season. No Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Walton. An aging and past his prime Cowens. Took that team to 60 wins in an EC with a very, very good Sixers team, a very good Bucks team and a good San Antonio team. LeBron went to a bad Cavs team and could make the play-offs for his first two seasons.

I'm less interested in comparing a 23-year old Larry to a 19-year old LeBron (as you are doing here), and more interested in making the claim that the 25-year old LeBron is a better basketball player than any player since 1980 has ever been at any age.

  I'd disagree with that claim. He's not playing any better than Bird or Jordan did and he's not as dominant compared to the rest of the league as Jordan was.

[BballTim]

You are knocking LeBron's jumpshot, but he is shooting better on 3s this year than Larry did in 4 of his first 5 seasons. Despite playing with Parish and McHale in all 4 of those years, Larry did not even crack 29% on 3s. Meanwhile, LeBron has never shot below 29% on 3s in his 7-year career. I bet you did not know that... speaking of mythology and all.

  Did you know that they were just instituting the three point line during those years? That teams didn't really use it as a regular part of their offense? Did they even have it in college when Bird was there? I doubt it. Any claims that LeBron can shoot as well as Bird did are ridiculous, as are any claims that LeBron is even in the same league as Bird was as a passer.

[Fafnir]

You are knocking LeBron's jumpshot, but he is shooting better on 3s this year than Larry did in 4 of his first 5 seasons. Despite playing with Parish and McHale in all 4 of those years, Larry did not even crack 29% on 3s. Meanwhile, LeBron has never shot below 29% on 3s in his 7-year career. I bet you did not know that... speaking of mythology and all.

  Did you know that they were just instituting the three point line during those years? That teams didn't really use it as a regular part of their offense? Did they even have it in college when Bird was there? I doubt it. Any claims that LeBron can shoot as well as Bird did are ridiculous, as are any claims that LeBron is even in the same league as Bird was as a passer.

Bird was a better shooter by a wide margin, I don't think he was a better passer.

A different kind of passer, but LeBron is right up there.

[PLamb]

Bird went to a team in 1979 that had two straight losing seasons and that was coming off a 29 win season. No Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Walton. An aging and past his prime Cowens. Took that team to 60 wins in an EC with a very, very good Sixers team, a very good Bucks team and a good San Antonio team. LeBron went to a bad Cavs team and could make the play-offs for his first two seasons.

I'm less interested in comparing a 23-year old Larry to a 19-year old LeBron (as you are doing here), and more interested in making the claim that the 25-year old LeBron is a better basketball player than any player since 1980 has ever been at any age.

See my above post on what a 20 year old Magic did in the playoffs his rookie year

And to add to the Magic-Larry mystique, what Magic did in the playoffs in that same 1980 year is unparalleled in the history of the NBA for a person at that age

At 20 years old while being a rookie, Magic averaged 18.3 PPG, 10.5 RPG, 9.3 APG, 3 STPG while shooting 51.8% in the playoffs and winning the Finals MVP while playing 5 different positions and ending with a 42 point explosion while playing center in the deciding game

This is after a regular season of 18 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 7.3 APG and 2.4 STPG while shooting 53% from the field

At 21 Magic put numbers of 21.6 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 8.6 APG, 3.4 STPG(led league) while shooting 53.2%

At 22 Magic put up numbers of 18.6 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 9.5 APG, 2.7 STPG(led league) while shooting 53.7% winning his second championship and 2nd Finals MVP while putting up numbers of 17.4 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 9.3 APG, 2.8 STPG while shooting 53% in the playoffs

At a similar age Magic was a much better player, accomplished a lot more and if he wanted to take as many shots as LeBron took, would have easily averaged more PPG than LeBron

LeBron isn't even as good as Magic, never mind MJ, Russell, Chamberlain, and others

[Onslaught]

The teams in the 90's are way stronger then the ones now. What great team has LBJ gone up against over and over again? Who's his rival?

And do you think he's not got the refs and NBA in his pocket?

And Bird didn't have all those people to pass to in his first year in Boston . And he came in and turned the team around all by himself.

What was the best team the Jordan Bulls ever beat?

I would have to go with the '98 Pacers, which only happened because the refs allowed Pippen to mug Mark Jackson all over the floor.

The 00s had to have at least 12 teams that were better than any 90s team outside of Chicago, including the Celtics of a few years ago. Shoot... you could probably get close to 12 just from the Lakers and Spurs alone.

I know all about Bird's rookie season (when he still had Cowens, Tiny and Max), but fact of the matter is, the current LeBron would eat Larry Bird alive, even in his prime.

I'd say the Jazz. They kicked the crap out of LA for years.