Wall Street Journal compares LeBron to Bird

[wdleehi]

The teams in the 90's are way stronger then the ones now. What great team has LBJ gone up against over and over again? Who's his rival?

And do you think he's not got the refs and NBA in his pocket?

And Bird didn't have all those people to pass to in his first year in Boston . And he came in and turned the team around all by himself.

What was the best team the Jordan Bulls ever beat?

I would have to go with the '98 Pacers, which only happened because the refs allowed Pippen to mug Mark Jackson all over the floor.

The 00s had to have at least 12 teams that were better than any 90s team outside of Chicago, including the Celtics of a few years ago. Shoot... you could probably get close to 12 just from the Lakers and Spurs alone.

I know all about Bird's rookie season (when he still had Cowens, Tiny and Max), but fact of the matter is, the current LeBron would eat Larry Bird alive, even in his prime.

I'd say the Jazz. They kicked the crap out of LA for years.

Bad Boy Pistons, LA Lakers.

[dlpin]

Some quick hits...

You are knocking LeBron's jumpshot, but he is shooting better on 3s this year than Larry did in 4 of his first 5 seasons. Despite playing with Parish and McHale in all 4 of those years, Larry did not even crack 29% on 3s. Meanwhile, LeBron has never shot below 29% on 3s in his 7-year career. I bet you did not know that... speaking of mythology and all.

Second, it's not a resume argument. I'm not counting trophies here. The scoreboard can do that well enough without me. I'm saying the dude is currently playing at a level that Larry et al never reached. I do not say that lightly.

The 3 pointer was new and teams didnt plan around it. The league average was 25% when bird hit less than 30%. The league average now is 35%. Besides, there is the matter of the long 2 jump shot. Lebron hits 29% between 10 and 15 feed, and 39% between 16 and 23.

Taking a 3 pointer in the flow of the game is widely different from taking a three pointer out of a called play.

[TitleMaster]

Looks fellows, the reason why LeBron doesn't have a title now is because he doesn't have Bird's brain. It's that plain and simple. If you need an example of this, watch the new 'Sherlock Holmes' movie with Robert Downey Jr and see how he sees the world in slow motion, whether it's in detective work or a bare knuckle fight.

With a few exceptions, Bird didn't need to initiate and close every play. That would have been an inefficient way to use his time on court. LBJ (and Kobe) have plays constantly running through them and thus, make the help defenses plus quasi-zone work well against his team, helplessly oriented around the one superstar.

If Bird was in LBJ's body, he'd make sure that he'd allow one of the two, either Jamison or Parker, to have an opening to the basket. Then, as Mo' brings the ball up, he dishes off to Jamison with the first goal to set up Bird_LBJ on the perimeter but then, if the Bird_LBJ draws two plus defenders to stop the perimeter shot, then a pass back to a now open 'Mo, for a mid-range jumper or again, back to a now open Parker for a layup. If Bird_LBJ gets the ball and there's one guy on him, forget it, he'll beat him off the dribble and score. Thus, the Cavs would be a very tough team to beat and every single play doesn't involve the one man. Right now, however, denying the ball to current LBJ seems to work quite well against the Cavs.

[FatjohnReturns]

Lebron is more athletic. Larry was the better player. You think Lebron could ever make that steal from Isiah and hit DJ for the win. Also Lebron wouldn't have the stomach to take it to the rim with 80's officiating. He complains on almost every drive now.

[TitleMaster]

If Bird_LBJ gets the ball and there's one guy on him, forget it, he'll beat him off the dribble and score.

In other words, neither a single Michael Cooper, nor Dennis Rodman, nor Sydney Moncrief would do the trick. It'll always need to be a double and thus, someone on the Cavs will always be the scoring Don for the possession. Thus the spacing/positioning of the 4 Cavs is what'll need to be coached, so that not all are cluttered in one area or another.

[BballTim]

You are knocking LeBron's jumpshot, but he is shooting better on 3s this year than Larry did in 4 of his first 5 seasons. Despite playing with Parish and McHale in all 4 of those years, Larry did not even crack 29% on 3s. Meanwhile, LeBron has never shot below 29% on 3s in his 7-year career. I bet you did not know that... speaking of mythology and all.

  Did you know that they were just instituting the three point line during those years? That teams didn't really use it as a regular part of their offense? Did they even have it in college when Bird was there? I doubt it. Any claims that LeBron can shoot as well as Bird did are ridiculous, as are any claims that LeBron is even in the same league as Bird was as a passer.

Bird was a better shooter by a wide margin, I don't think he was a better passer.

A different kind of passer, but LeBron is right up there.

  Bird made a lot of passes that, not only could LeBron never hope to be able to pull off, but the opportunity would be gone before LeBron ever saw the possibility. I think the closest you'll see in the league right now to Bird is Rondo, and I don't think that LeBron is as good a passer as Rondo.

[buzz]

Bad Boy Pistons, LA Lakers.

Not the washed-up versions that Michael and the Bulls beat in 91.

[dlpin]

Bad Boy Pistons, LA Lakers.

Not the washed-up versions that Michael and the Bulls beat in 91.

The washed up versions that the bulls beat in 91 are significantly better than the washed up version of the pistons that lebron beat in 2007. That washed up lakers team swept Olajuwon's rockets, beat that warrior's "run tmc" in 5 games, and beat a very, very good blazers team in 6. Those two "washed up" teams are significantly better than any team Lebron has ever faced other than the celtics and spurs.

[buzz]

Man, how of you dudes are wearing Larry Bird underoos right now?  

Come ooooon!

What do you think things would look like if Larry/Magic/MJ had to play with LeBron's teammates, and LeBron got to play with theirs?

Also, I don't want to penalize eras here, but it's a much tougher game defensively now. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, with greater recovery speed. I've heard it said by a former long-time player that the biggest difference between now and then is that it used to be team offense and one-on-one defense, and now it is one-on-one offense and team defense.

Well, unlike Bird or Magic, LeBron hasn't seen a one-on-one defense in his entire life! He is well suited to playing 80s team offense against 00s team defense. His athleticism and strength are off the charts. Watch him, then watch some tape of a 1980s game. He makes that era look like a rec league at the Y. He even makes Jordan's dunking look rather pedestrian.

No kidding... see for yourself:

First, LeBron destroying everyone in his path
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=9-9TAoPPgKQ

Then Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!videos=a8Y9Gg9XXUY&v=H8M2NgjvicA

Now, obviously, both guys can dunk a bit. But note how Lebron is just so much higher, with dunks so much more explosive and, well... vicious.

He is a scary athletic MONSTER of a guy. Don't give me this junk about LeBron would be scared to drive the lane back in the day. In most eras, matador defense was the order of the day in games that teams scored in the 110s on average. And let's not forget that the guy is as big as Malone was, and +/- 10 pounds with guys like Laimbeer, Mahorn, Mourning, Parish, Rodman, Hakeem and even Ewing.

You put LBJ and Larry on equally talented teams, and LeBron would eat Larry up on both ends. Larry just not athletic enough, not big enough, not strong enough. Good chance Larry would have to choose between foul trouble or getting smashed on if he had to check LeBron (especially in single coverage).

I got nothing against playing intelligent, unselfish ball, and I suspect that LeBron doesn't either. But at the end of the day, athleticism rules in this league. And if you have both, as LeBron does, look out below.

If I want to see a bunch of slow unathletic people with good fundamentals and high hoops IQ, I will watch the WNBA, or the Ivy League, or maybe just Mike Dunleavy Jr.

[buzz]

The washed up versions that the bulls beat in 91 are significantly better than the washed up version of the pistons that lebron beat in 2007. That washed up lakers team swept Olajuwon's rockets, beat that warrior's "run tmc" in 5 games, and beat a very, very good blazers team in 6. Those two "washed up" teams are significantly better than any team Lebron has ever faced other than the celtics and spurs.

The context of that point, before it got parsed down into oblivion, was not to compare MJ and LeBron's playoff resumes. It was about how people mythologize these guys and make fair comparisons impossible.

No question that Jordan is one of the best players ever. But many are so rolled up in the hype that they can never even entertain the notion of him not being perfect in every way.

All I am saying is that the answer to the question, "Who did Michael ever beat?" is basically, "Nobody."

[Fafnir]

All I am saying is that the answer to the question, "Who did Michael ever beat?" is basically, "Nobody."

And everyone is "basically" saying to you, that you're wrong when you say this.

[BballTim]

Man, how of you dudes are wearing Larry Bird underoos right now?  

Come ooooon!

What do you think things would look like if Larry/Magic/MJ had to play with LeBron's teammates, and LeBron got to play with theirs?

Also, I don't want to penalize eras here, but it's a much tougher game defensively now. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, with greater recovery speed. I've heard it said by a former long-time player that the biggest difference between now and then is that it used to be team offense and one-on-one defense, and now it is one-on-one offense and team defense.

Well, unlike Bird or Magic, LeBron hasn't seen a one-on-one defense in his entire life! He is well suited to playing 80s team offense against 00s team defense. His athleticism and strength are off the charts. Watch him, then watch some tape of a 1980s game. He makes that era look like a rec league at the Y. He even makes Jordan's dunking look rather pedestrian.

No kidding... see for yourself:

First, LeBron destroying everyone in his path
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=9-9TAoPPgKQ

Then Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!videos=a8Y9Gg9XXUY&v=H8M2NgjvicA

Now, obviously, both guys can dunk a bit. But note how Lebron is just so much higher, with dunks so much more explosive and, well... vicious.

He is a scary athletic MONSTER of a guy. Don't give me this junk about LeBron would be scared to drive the lane back in the day. In most eras, matador defense was the order of the day in games that teams scored in the 110s on average. And let's not forget that the guy is as big as Malone was, and +/- 10 pounds with guys like Laimbeer, Mahorn, Mourning, Parish, Rodman, Hakeem and even Ewing.

You put LBJ and Larry on equally talented teams, and LeBron would eat Larry up on both ends. Larry just not athletic enough, not big enough, not strong enough. Good chance Larry would have to choose between foul trouble or getting smashed on if he had to check LeBron (especially in single coverage).

I got nothing against playing intelligent, unselfish ball, and I suspect that LeBron doesn't either. But at the end of the day, athleticism rules in this league. And if you have both, as LeBron does, look out below.

If I want to see a bunch of slow unathletic people with good fundamentals and high hoops IQ, I will watch the WNBA, or the Ivy League, or maybe just Mike Dunleavy Jr.

  I think the underoos comment was about your best argument there. I honestly have a hard time believing that you watched the game before MJ was on the Wizards. Sorry, but not everyone thinks that being big and strong and looking ferocious dunking the ball is the criteria for the best player. Put Larry and LeBron on equally talented teams and LeBron would probably win the individual matchup (ie put up better stats). But that would be fine with Bird, who's team would most likely win the game. It's nice that LeBron has nothing against intellegent play, but that's kind of like saying Bird doesn't have anything against Jordan's above the rim game. But he couldn't do it at Jordan's level, and James doesn't have anywhere near Bird's BBIQ.

[BballTim]

The context of that point, before it got parsed down into oblivion, was not to compare MJ and LeBron's playoff resumes. It was about how people mythologize these guys and make fair comparisons impossible.

  But it seems to be limited to a very few players, nit everyone from the era. People don't "mythologize" Dr. J or Moses or Kareem or Hakeem or Isaiah or Stockton or Malone or Barkely or Pippin or any number of all-time greats from that era. It's only 2 players from the 80s and 1 player from the 90s.

[indeedproceed]

All I am saying is that the answer to the question, "Who did Michael ever beat?" is basically, "Nobody."

And everyone is "basically" saying to you, that you're wrong when you say this.

Yes, You're wrong.

The 90's weren't the 80's but it wasn't like there weren't top 50 players in that Era.

And just like you say below, you can't compare eras, but not because these guys are so as you imply unjustly blown up, but because like you say things are so different today.

Kwame Brown would've eaten the NBA alive in the 1960's. That doesn't mean Kwame Brown is a better player. Training, skillsets, expectations, the league, rules..they all evolved.

Same thing since the 1980's. You think Lebron's athleticism would make those fossils obselete, what about their hand check defense. Lebron might be able to leap a bullet in a single bound, but hows he feel about a clothesline the next time he takes 4 steps to the hoop? THat's what he gets if he skirts around Bird. And its not only against the Celtics that he would get wailed on. This is pre-MJ rules, baby. THat means the rusty fish-hook, the rock bottom, the razor's edge and the inverted powerbomb are all perfectly legal forms of said 'man to man' defense. Micheal Cooper once killed a man trying to stop a 15ft jumpshot.

And you think Larry Bird maximized his athleticism in the 1980's? Fluff was still considered a vital nutrient group, man. Come on.

You're bringing a double standard argument to a fun little excersise. Can you really compare LeBron and Larry? No. Larry is a 3 time champion hall of famer and top 10 all-time player. LeBron has his own puppet and is scared of catching cooties so he doesn't shake hands.

It's not a fair comparison.

[buzz]

Yes, You're wrong.

The 90's weren't the 80's but it wasn't like there weren't top 50 players in that Era.

And just like you say below, you can't compare eras, but not because these guys are so as you imply unjustly blown up, but because like you say things are so different today.

Kwame Brown would've eaten the NBA alive in the 1960's. That doesn't mean Kwame Brown is a better player. Training, skillsets, expectations, the league, rules..they all evolved.

Same thing since the 1980's. You think Lebron's athleticism would make those fossils obselete, what about their hand check defense. Lebron might be able to leap a bullet in a single bound, but hows he feel about a clothesline the next time he takes 4 steps to the hoop? THat's what he gets if he skirts around Bird. And its not only against the Celtics that he would get wailed on. This is pre-MJ rules, baby. THat means the rusty fish-hook, the rock bottom, the razor's edge and the inverted powerbomb are all perfectly legal forms of said 'man to man' defense. Micheal Cooper once killed a man trying to stop a 15ft jumpshot.

And you think Larry Bird maximized his athleticism in the 1980's? Fluff was still considered a vital nutrient group, man. Come on.

You're bringing a double standard argument to a fun little excersise. Can you really compare LeBron and Larry? No. Larry is a 3 time champion hall of famer and top 10 all-time player. LeBron has his own puppet and is scared of catching cooties so he doesn't shake hands.

It's not a fair comparison.

As I said, I am not trying to penalize eras here. First, you can cut my contribution to this discussion off at 1980 or so, when I started watching hoops. I am not comparing any of these dudes to Wilt or Russell, because I really have no basis for doing so. One could also certainly assume that 1960s or 1980s players could go through the same strength training, etc...

But fair to say that Lebron is athletic enough to be elite in any era. And that Larry was not particularly athletic, particularly by the current era's standards.

And I would like to clear up a couple of outright fallacies people are throwing out there. First, outside of a couple of late 80s/early 90s teams, defenses are unquestionably more physical today. The idea that the league used to be much tougher defensively is something I reject out of hand. And I am a bit shocked that fans of this current Celtics team, who won a title by being thugs to the core, would even make that claim. Kendrick Perkins? James Posey? PJ Brown? What team were you guys watching two years ago?

And as to Lebron not having to deal with hand-checking, whose game do you think hand-checking benefits more, Larry Bird or the guy who is 30 pounds bigger and twice as strong?  You let Lebron hand-check people, and he is the DPOY, rather than just 2nd in voting like he is now. I shudder to think of what Lebron could do to a guy like Larry if he were allowed to do that on defense.

All good.