Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?

[Roy Hobbs]

Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Painting this as a typical night for TA is disingenous.  Over his career he's averaged 7+ pts on 47+% FG shooting 75% FT shooting, with 2+ boards, a steal, a slightly negative a/to differential(1.3a/1.4to) and 2+ fouls.  So basically tonight we got all of the typical bad and very little of the typical good.

The problem is that Allen's average stats aren't representative of his typical game. An average doesn't factor inconsistency, so the distribution is skewed. So it may not have been an average night for TA but it was closer of being a median one.

This comes with the territory for bench players.  Most bench players see their shot attempts and even their minutes fluctuate from game to game, which makes real consistency a very rare quality for bench players.  

Still, a a 0-1-1 stat line with 2 tos and fouls ain't the median.

If you check TA's game log from last season, he scored 5 or more points, 2 or more boards, 2 or more FTAs, 1 or more steals, 1 or more steals between 65-70% of his games.  Those %s increase if you take out the games where he played less than 15 minutes.  His turnovers and fouls do to of course, but my overall point is that TA is as consistently good as he is bad.
 

Nobody called it "typical" or the "median".  I called it "one of [Tony's] patented nights".  No, he doesn't literally have a patent for playing like a complete bonehead, but if any player could, it would be Tony.

Also looking at Tony's game logs, there were 19 out of 46 games where his turnover total was at least 33% of his points total.  In only 11 out of 46 games did he have more assists than turnovers (I don't remember him being our "de facto point guard", but if he was, he was the worst point guard in the history of the position).  He had one or fewer assists in 31 out of 46 games, and he shot a putridly low .282 eFG% on jump shots (much worse than Rondo ever dreamed of shooting).

Even with the bar set ridiculously low for him, Tony has traditionally failed to clear it.

[snively]

I have no problem forgiving players for a lack of talent or athleticism. I do have a large problem with players that are just dumb players. Players that have all the talent and athleticism in the world but play stupidly, grate against me. Sorry, pet peeve. Always will be and I make no apologies for it.

But were you around this blog the last three years reading thread after thread after thread, post after post after post detailing how great Tony Allen was because of his 16 game stretch in 2007? Did you read how he was going to replace James Posey and give the C's more than Posey ever could once he was totally healed again, over and over and over? Were you here before the Championship season when everyone was expounding on how Allen would come back and be the next Ron Artest/Michael Cooper/Gerald Wallace all rolled into one?

The warts were on the pig even then and 95% of the participants on this blog just decided to ignore them. Pointing to plain facts that were easily seen and ignored about Tony created a passionate displeasure for him. I didn't want him re-signed. He's had two horrible late season stretches over the last two years. he's not worth the money. And very soon he's not going to be worth the time to discuss him anymore.

Is it really going to take Tony having a Bill Buckner moment before everyone who loves him so much sees him for what he really is, a player that is severely limited and should never have been brought back to this team.

Sorry to go 3 in a row, but I like this topic and you bring up interesting points.

The TA hype of preseason 08 is long gone.  It's a dead horse.  I'd say hate for his game is far more prevalent than love at this point.  The pendulum has swung and too far.  

Now it's hard to see the pig because great posters focus so disproportionately on the warts.  There are fewer TA fanboys to slay at this point, so I think it's time that the anti-TA lobby should settle down and re-evaluate him.  As a 9th or 10th man on a loaded bench, he's really quite acceptable. That neither TA nor Daniels can shoot means that a TA-for-shooter trade would be helpful, but he's not a throwaway player. I'd toss Giddens, Walker, Hudson and maybe even Scal before TA on a pure value basis.

[snively]

Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Painting this as a typical night for TA is disingenous.  Over his career he's averaged 7+ pts on 47+% FG shooting 75% FT shooting, with 2+ boards, a steal, a slightly negative a/to differential(1.3a/1.4to) and 2+ fouls.  So basically tonight we got all of the typical bad and very little of the typical good.

The problem is that Allen's average stats aren't representative of his typical game. An average doesn't factor inconsistency, so the distribution is skewed. So it may not have been an average night for TA but it was closer of being a median one.

This comes with the territory for bench players.  Most bench players see their shot attempts and even their minutes fluctuate from game to game, which makes real consistency a very rare quality for bench players.  

Still, a a 0-1-1 stat line with 2 tos and fouls ain't the median.

If you check TA's game log from last season, he scored 5 or more points, 2 or more boards, 2 or more FTAs, 1 or more steals, 1 or more steals between 65-70% of his games.  Those %s increase if you take out the games where he played less than 15 minutes.  His turnovers and fouls do to of course, but my overall point is that TA is as consistently good as he is bad.
 

Nobody called it "typical" or the "median".  I called it "one of [Tony's] patented nights".  No, he doesn't literally have a patent for playing like a complete bonehead, but if any player could, it would be Tony.

Also looking at Tony's game logs, there were 19 out of 46 games where his turnover total was at least 33% of his points total.  In only 11 out of 46 games did he have more assists than turnovers.  He had one or fewer assists in 31 out of 46 games, and he shot a putridly low .282 eFG% on jump shots (much worse than Rondo ever dreamed of shooting).

Even with the bar set ridiculously low for him, Tony has traditionally failed to clear it.

Roy, I was responding to scoop's claim that Tuesday night was close to a median one for TA.  I'm not knocking down straw men.

You are singling out TA's weaknesses and categorically ignoring his strengths.  Does the bar for performance only apply to turnovers, fouls and eFG% on jump shooters?

We can play the same game with Rondo (don't get me wrong, a far superior and much more complete player) and many have.  "Rondo, your minimum stat requirements are 13 ppg, 30% 3pt shooting and at least 65% free throw shooting.  Sorry, you failed to classify as an acceptable offensive player."

TA really stinks in the categories you mentioned and has taken a well-deserved beating from fans for those failings.  But he also meets or exceeds the standard bench player bar in several other areas: creating and finishing looks for himself inside, forcing turnovers, grabbing boards and sticking his man.

I think Daniels is better, I'm not out to promote TA, but I maintain that he's an acceptable bench player and about average overall once you balance his immense short-comings with the spread of his positive contributions.

[BASS_THUMPER]

"TA really stinks in the categories you mentioned and has taken a well-deserved beating from fans for those failings."


hmmmm

  "But he also meets or exceeds the standard bench player bar in several other areas: creating and finishing looks for himself inside, forcing turnovers, grabbing boards and sticking his man."

sounds like a well rounded balla to me...

[jambr380]

I don't dislike TA, I am just like a lot of people here that feel that you really can't count on him. As has been said before, he is the anti-Marquis. On any given night, he can outperform Marquis off the bench in every category and be a HUGE spark. Unfortunately, he can also be the worst player in the NBA. Last night, I was pleasantly surprised with some key TA plays, like the rebound and put back and his overall strong defense. But, when he palmed the ball, I just shook my head. The thing is you have to temper any excitement you feel over the 'amazing' TA plays because you know the bonhead ones are on the horizon. Maybe our expectations grow when we see the great plays and then we are really let down when he blows it. When, in Marquis' case, he just plays consistently and fluidly and neither dazzles us or disappoints us...

All this being said, I obviously believe Marquis is better, but we are not doomed with Tony out there.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Salmon, I also appreciate TA's game, but I think you are making to many excuses for him.  Health is a an attribute in the NBA, and TA has demonstrate a consistent shortcoming in that area.  Not likely to see that change.

I've never made any excuses regarding TA's health.  It's by and far the #1 issue holding him back.  It's a talent to stay healthy and play well through injuries and he's never been able to do that.  But where a guy like Leon Powe gets sympathy for his injury trouble, a guy like Tony Allen gets labeled a bonehead.  Can you see the disconnect?

Also TA is just turnover prone.  That's who he is.  He's a player who likes to have the ball and often gives it away through lack of ball skills, awareness or over-aggressiveness.  Hasn't really mattered who he's playing with or what his role is.   

TA does need the ball in his hands to be effective.  But there's a difference between giving him the ball on the wing where he's a two-dribble drive away from the rim, and putting him at the top of the set, above the 3 point line, and asking him to penetrate and dish.  Unfortunately for him, he's been asked throughout his career (and especially since he came back from his knee injury) to be the 2nd unit's de facto point guard, mainly because a guy like Eddie House still hasn't mastered the art of dribbling and shooting well. 

I know the scoffers out there, the Roy Hobbs of the world who think they can bend reality to fit their wishes, like to make fun of this claim.  Yet, Doc Rivers isn't laughing.  Listen to him in today's paper:

Missing a point

It appears as if the size of Tony Allen’s role with the Celtics is going to come down to his ability to handle the ball and be a de facto point guard in Marquis Daniels’ absence.

His troubles in that regard lately have the Celts changing plans.

“That’s a big issue,” Rivers said of Allen, who had four points in 15 minutes last night. “Defensively Tony’s fine. He’s got to stop gambling, but he’s fine on defense. The thing is he has to take care of the ball. If he can’t take of the ball, he can’t play.”

One of the reasons the Celts brought in Daniels is because he can bring the ball up the floor and free Eddie House on the wing.

“Right now, Eddie’s going to have to handle the ball more, and that hurts his game,” Rivers said. “If he’s handling the ball and setting things up, then he’s not a shooter.”

from http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20091215exit_claws_for_lester_hudson/

As I said, TA's misuse is a direct result of the inconvenience of Eddie House.  Even today, December 15th, 2009, Doc is still trying to make Tony a point guard, all so he can get the best out of Eddie House.  Ah, wouldn't it be nice to have an actual backup point guard, so we could get the best out of Eddie House AND Tony Allen?


*****


Last night, TA showed that he's capable of being a productive bench player in limited minutes, coming in and defending OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay pretty well for stretches of the 2nd and 4th quarters (in fact, defending those two better than anyone else on our team), diving to the rim for layups, hustling on the boards for three offensive rebounds, and in general giving the Cs a needed energy boost during his time on the court, even handling the point on occasion. 

[nickagneta]

Salmon, I also appreciate TA's game, but I think you are making to many excuses for him.  Health is a an attribute in the NBA, and TA has demonstrate a consistent shortcoming in that area.  Not likely to see that change.

I've never made any excuses regarding TA's health.  It's by and far the #1 issue holding him back.  It's a talent to stay healthy and play well through injuries and he's never been able to do that.  But where a guy like Leon Powe gets sympathy for his injury trouble, a guy like Tony Allen gets labeled a bonehead.  Can you see the disconnect?

Also TA is just turnover prone.  That's who he is.  He's a player who likes to have the ball and often gives it away through lack of ball skills, awareness or over-aggressiveness.  Hasn't really mattered who he's playing with or what his role is.   

TA does need the ball in his hands to be effective.  But there's a difference between giving him the ball on the wing where he's a two-dribble drive away from the rim, and putting him at the top of the set, above the 3 point line, and asking him to penetrate and dish.  Unfortunately for him, he's been asked throughout his career (and especially since he came back from his knee injury) to be the 2nd unit's de facto point guard, mainly because a guy like Eddie House still hasn't mastered the art of dribbling and shooting well. 

I know the scoffers out there, the Roy Hobbs of the world who think they can bend reality to fit their wishes, like to make fun of this claim.  Yet, Doc Rivers isn't laughing.  Listen to him in today's paper:

Missing a point

It appears as if the size of Tony Allen’s role with the Celtics is going to come down to his ability to handle the ball and be a de facto point guard in Marquis Daniels’ absence.

His troubles in that regard lately have the Celts changing plans.

“That’s a big issue,” Rivers said of Allen, who had four points in 15 minutes last night. “Defensively Tony’s fine. He’s got to stop gambling, but he’s fine on defense. The thing is he has to take care of the ball. If he can’t take of the ball, he can’t play.”

One of the reasons the Celts brought in Daniels is because he can bring the ball up the floor and free Eddie House on the wing.

“Right now, Eddie’s going to have to handle the ball more, and that hurts his game,” Rivers said. “If he’s handling the ball and setting things up, then he’s not a shooter.”

from http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20091215exit_claws_for_lester_hudson/

As I said, TA's misuse is a direct result of the inconvenience of Eddie House.  Even today, December 15th, 2009, Doc is still trying to make Tony a point guard, all so he can get the best out of Eddie House.  Ah, wouldn't it be nice to have an actual backup point guard, so we could get the best out of Eddie House AND Tony Allen?


*****


Last night, TA showed that he's capable of being a productive bench player in limited minutes, coming in and defending OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay pretty well for stretches of the 2nd and 4th quarters (in fact, defending those two better than anyone else on our team), diving to the rim for layups, hustling on the boards for three offensive rebounds, and in general giving the Cs a needed energy boost during his time on the court, even handling the point on occasion. 

Talk about bending reality...

"Thing is he has to take care of the ball. If he can’t take of the ball, he can’t play"

This is Doc's quote. Please point to the area where Doc said he was being used as a point guard. As a matter of fact, Tony has brought up up the ball and initiated the offense just a handful of times this year, no more or less than any average shooting guard does on a regular basis. When Tony has been in Ray, Pierce or Eddie has been the point guard. This is also true for almost all of last year as "the Tony at PG" experiment pretty much ended in January of 2008 because he was so inept at it.

As for you continued cries of pity for poor Tony who hasn't been given a chance because he's been hurt, please explain to me why players across the league like Amare Stoudemire, Grant Hill, Greg Oden, Mike Dunleavy, Luol Deng, Gilbert Arenas, Trevor Ariza and others can all can back from injuries and be as good if not better than beforehand and yet Allen we have to give some special consideration to because when he gets injured he never returns to play as well as before he got injured.

Please, Salmon. The "woe is me" defense for Tony's inability to produce is beyond ridiculous. Professional athletes come back from injuries all the time. Well, at least good ones do.

[Roy Hobbs]

As nick said, I don't see any ringing endorsement, or even excuse for Tony's play, in Doc's statement.

Basically, he says Tony is playing okay defense, but gambles too much.  That's pretty much Tony's M.O.  He says that Tony can't take care of the ball.  Again, this is nothing new.  The great thing is, Doc said that Tony might not see additional minutes if he continues to play like a moron.

Tony Allen is a shooting guard who can't dribble and who can't shoot.  Generally, players like that are playing in the D-League, rather than the NBA.

(The fact that you say the "the Roy Hobbs of the world" are "bending reality", and then attack Eddie House for not being able to dribble or shoot (huh? ) is irony at it's best.)

[Chris]

I've never made any excuses regarding TA's health.  It's by and far the #1 issue holding him back.  It's a talent to stay healthy and play well through injuries and he's never been able to do that.  But where a guy like Leon Powe gets sympathy for his injury trouble, a guy like Tony Allen gets labeled a bonehead.  Can you see the disconnect?

The difference is that no one makes excuses to Powe because of his injuries.  If he is injured, he is out, if he is on the floor, he is expected to produce.  I expect the same thing from Allen, but when he is on the floor, he continues to have problems...mostly having to do with concentration.  

So yes, injuries have kept Tony Allen out of games...but they have not changed the way he played.  He was an out of control player, who made a ton of mental mistakes before he blew out his knee, and he is an out of control player who makes a ton of mental mistakes now.  

[Birdbrain]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

[nickagneta]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

Tony played well last night.

So did that guy that has the worst hands God ever created. As did the short three point shooter and the tall three point shooter that played his ass of in the paint last night and a lot more recently.

As long as the group as a whole can play within themselves and play mistake free ball, they will be great for this team. Every one of them, including Tony. I just trust the rest of the bench(with the exception of Walker, Hudson and Giddens) to play within themselves more than I do Tony.

[Birdbrain]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

Tony played well last night.

So did that guy that has the worst hands God ever created. As did the short three point shooter and the tall three point shooter that played his ass of in the paint last night and a lot more recently.

As long as the group as a whole can play within themselves and play mistake free ball, they will be great for this team. Every one of them, including Tony. I just trust the rest of the bench(with the exception of Walker, Hudson and Giddens) to play within themselves more than I do Tony.

No doubt, very pensive times in my house when TA decides to bring the ball up the court.  I just assume the worst and when that doesn't happen I'm all the more happy.

Nice descriptions of the bench lol and Sheed is most assuredly playing in the post a lot more the past few games.  He's going to be huge in the playoffs.  I don't really think anyone even LA has the length to effect his shot when he's on the block.

[Chris]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

A plus compared to what?  Playing with 4 guys?  Having Scal play SG?  JR Giddens?

He is holding down the fort well enough, mainly because the rest of the team is so strong, but I would hardly call him a plus.  Maybe he is inching towards passable.

[Roy Hobbs]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

A plus compared to what?  Playing with 4 guys?  Having Scal play SG?  JR Giddens?

He is holding down the fort well enough, mainly because the rest of the team is so strong, but I would hardly call him a plus.  Maybe he is inching towards passable.

I wouldn't call him a plus (and since Doc is talking about potentially benching him, I don't think Doc would, either).  Last night, he played a good, controlled game.  Nothing spectacular, but solid.  Against Washington, he played one good half, and one poor one.  The other two games he's played have been poor.

So, in four games, Tony has played three decent to good halves.  I just can't find myself getting all fired up about a player who plays okay basketball 37.5% of the time.

If Tony could play every night like last night, nobody would criticize him.  He wasn't a difference maker, but he played his part.  No problem.  As Doc said, though, if Tony can't hold on to the ball (like in other games), he doesn't deserve a spot on the floor.

[Birdbrain]

He's a bit shaky but, he's doing his part.  Got a few more deflections and made a few buckets and didn't play PG.  I don't think anyone could say he's hasn't been a plus since he's been back.

He's a nice athletic piece to go along with a bench consisting of mostly 3 pt shooters and 1 dude who has the worst hands God ever created.

A plus compared to what?  Playing with 4 guys?  Having Scal play SG?  JR Giddens?

He is holding down the fort well enough, mainly because the rest of the team is so strong, but I would hardly call him a plus.  Maybe he is inching towards passable.

One man's passable is another man's positive when that man assumes a negative.  It's all perspective.