Author Topic: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?  (Read 24980 times)

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Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 12:20:16 AM »

Offline PPTheZodiac

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I hope they give Hudson some of Daniels minutes.  Not because I think he has earned them, but because without Daniels, they need someone who can handle the ball on that unit.
I'm with you on this one. I totally lose my belief in Tony

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 12:41:43 AM »

Offline Atzar

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First of all, I don't agree that Daniels is appreciatively better than TA at cutting to the hoop.  Where he differentiates himself from TA is his control and decision-making with the ball in his hands.

Right... so he's better cutting to the hoop.  You can have a great first step, good body control, the ability to jump out of the gym - all of which TA has - but it doesn't mean a thing if you dribble the ball off your foot out of bounds or get called for charging.  Can't spell Tony without 'TO'.

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That brings us to the whole issue of usage.  In such a low-usage role Daniels is not bringing much more than TA.  He's an equally poor shooter so he isn't hitting from long range and spacing the floor, nor is he especially big and athletic, setting screens or grabbing boards that TA couldn't. Nor are his intangibles noticably elevating the play of his mates.  House and Wallace are both struggling.

The shooting struggles of Eddie and Sheed aren't Quis's fault - they're just missing shots.  His job is to penetrate and get them open shots... which he's doing.  He can't make the shots for them.

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The bench needs Daniels to be higher usage.  It would be one thing if he was taking a backseat to more capable teammates.  But that's not the case.  He's the best passer and only slasher of the bench bunch. Right now an enormous % of bench possessions are consumed by Sheed, one of the lowest % shooters on the team.

I agree with this, in the sense that most possessions in the second unit should either start with Quis or whichever starter is in with them - frequently Ray, it seems.  It seems like the offense has a tendency to stick Marquis in the corner sometimes.  He's not useful over there, can't shoot and therefore isn't respected by the opposing defense.  He works best with the ball in his hands or in the post against smaller guards.  
 
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If TA produces at last year's levels his net impact would be comparable to what Daniels is giving us right now.  Daniels is doing very little, and doing even less wrong.  Meanwhile Sheed is doing much more than he should.  If TA comes in and does a lot, good and bad, Sheed will do less, and the bench will probably fare the same.  The blame will just shift somewhat from Sheed to TA.

I don't want Sheed to do less.  I want Sheed to make his shots and play more in the post where he can score on anybody in the league.  Meanwhile, I don't want TA to come in and do more.  I want Marquis to stay in and do more.

It would be one thing if TA would have good games and bad games.  You could throw him in at the end of the first quarter of every game.  If he was good TA, let him play; if he was bad TA, yank him.  TA's not like that - he'll make a brilliant play one possession and then pay it back with interest fifteen seconds later.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2009, 08:03:33 AM »

Offline pengaloo

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I'm hoping this isn't the case and I'm probably just reading too much in between the lines, but does Tony seem to have his own agenda on a team that should not have individual agendas?
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Allen, who stayed home while the team was sweeping last week’s road trip, stepped onto the floor for yesterday’s scrimmaging and refused to come out.

It wasn’t a popular choice.

“A lot of guys were mad at me today because I didn’t want to come out,” Allen said. “They want to play, but this is my game time. Today I just wanted to get a feel. But I’m happy to be out here.”
http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20091207sore_marquis_daniels_to_sit_out_for_celtics/srvc=home&position=also

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 08:25:14 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm hoping this isn't the case and I'm probably just reading too much in between the lines, but does Tony seem to have his own agenda on a team that should not have individual agendas?
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Allen, who stayed home while the team was sweeping last week’s road trip, stepped onto the floor for yesterday’s scrimmaging and refused to come out.

It wasn’t a popular choice.

“A lot of guys were mad at me today because I didn’t want to come out,” Allen said. “They want to play, but this is my game time. Today I just wanted to get a feel. But I’m happy to be out here.”
http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20091207sore_marquis_daniels_to_sit_out_for_celtics/srvc=home&position=also
Depends on who "a lot of guys". If he's going to be getting 15 minutes on Tuesday and felt he needed the extra scrimmage time to get ready, at the cost of Giddens/Hudson, so be it.

The coaches would tell him to come out if it was a major issue.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 09:05:39 AM »

Offline moiso

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I'm excited to watch TA.  I realize he's not great and can make dumb mistakes, but I really enjoy watching him.  Whereas Daniels fits in, doesn't do anything spectacular or make many mistakes, Tony is highly noticeable.  It seems like everything he does is either spectacular or a mistake.  He hasn't been the kind of guy the C's can count on and injuries have always been a factor, but I'm not dreading his return.  I'm excited about it.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 11:24:42 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

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Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 11:27:09 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
The only positive thing he did all night was pass on penetration twice for open shots. He also rebounded a lot harder than anyone not named KG/Rondo/Perk.

In every other phase and possession of the game, yuck!

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 11:40:04 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
The only positive thing he did all night was pass on penetration twice for open shots. He also rebounded a lot harder than anyone not named KG/Rondo/Perk.

In every other phase and possession of the game, yuck!

Tony didn't play well but I felt a lot more comfortable with him out there than someone like Giddens. And this is Tony's first game back and he still looked more comfortable than Giddens out there. Theres really not much Tony could have done in this game to get any respect anyway unless he shot lights out or something. If he didn't commit a turnover people would just be sarcastically saying how great a game he had because of that. So i think it's pretty much a lose lose for him.

My hopes are that Tony Allen can somehow pull a Brian Scalabrine. Scal had some expectations of helping out our team when he first joined and he was pretty abysmal for the first few years. However he turned it around the past couple years mainly because his expectations dropped dramatically and he had a much smaller role to fill. I'm hoping maybe that Tony's expectations from fans have dropped so much, that if he can contribute during games here or there than that will be good enough.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 11:50:34 PM »

Offline ToppersBsktball10

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
The only positive thing he did all night was pass on penetration twice for open shots. He also rebounded a lot harder than anyone not named KG/Rondo/Perk.

In every other phase and possession of the game, yuck!

Rondo still had 9, show's how he sometimes wastes his talent...a lot.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 11:51:53 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
The only positive thing he did all night was pass on penetration twice for open shots. He also rebounded a lot harder than anyone not named KG/Rondo/Perk.

In every other phase and possession of the game, yuck!

Rondo still had 9, show's how he sometimes wastes his talent...a lot.
Meh, sometimes the rebounds aren't there. Perk only had 5 this game.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 11:58:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
TP because I was going to put up the same stats.

He is so pathetic. I just don't see how Tony Allen fans can still hang onto the deluded notion that he is worthy of not only playing time, but an extensive role on this team.

Mind boggling to me. He really is the exact same player that came out of Oklahoma State 6 years ago only without the unbelievable athleticism that allowed him to overcome the boneheadedness of his game.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 12:06:07 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
The only positive thing he did all night was pass on penetration twice for open shots. He also rebounded a lot harder than anyone not named KG/Rondo/Perk.

In every other phase and possession of the game, yuck!

Rondo still had 9, show's how he sometimes wastes his talent...a lot.
To be fair to Rondo, for a major portion of this season, like right up until tonight, Rondo upon seeing the shot has run out to the sideline looking for the outlet pass hoping to start the fast break. It looked to be by design, much like the C's offensive rebounding woes look to be by design. On most every offensive possession, players are seeming running back to their end upon seeing a fellow Celtic shoot a ball as they try to head off a fast break.

Tonight, much like in last year's playoff, it looked as if Doc changed the scheme and had Rondo crashing down from the top of the key whenever a Buck shot. He clearly looked to be crashing the defensive boards and not looking to get outlet passes tonight.

Sadly, where are rebounding is really suffering is not from the PG position but from the wing positions as Ray, Marquis, and Paul have been horrible rebounding the ball this year.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 06:04:57 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Not the best game out of TA, but I'd say let him get his wind and legs back. I believe he'll be fine.

He'll get another opportunity in WAS on thursday.

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 06:48:49 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.
TP because I was going to put up the same stats.

He is so pathetic. I just don't see how Tony Allen fans can still hang onto the deluded notion that he is worthy of not only playing time, but an extensive role on this team.

Mind boggling to me. He really is the exact same player that came out of Oklahoma State 6 years ago only without the unbelievable athleticism that allowed him to overcome the boneheadedness of his game.

Wow.  This is Tony's first game after not playing a gazillion games.  Give the guy some time to get his legs under him.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 06:55:04 AM »

Online JBcat

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Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Let's cut him some slack.   His first game back.  

What I saw wasn't that bad.   First at least 1 of his turnovers wasn't entirely his fault.  He was saving the ball from going out of bounds and passed it to Scal who should have been paying attention but wasn't.     The offensive foul call was questionable.   In that situation on one on I don't mind him being real aggressive.  

I thought he made a real nice drive and dish to Ray Allen for 3.   I thought he also managed a break well and dished it out nicely to House for a missed 3.  

Nice post up move on Delfino to draw the foul.  Just missed 2 foul shots.

I'm not expecting miracles from him and his erratic play does get on my nerves but for his first game back not too bad for Tony.

The Celtics being outscored by 8 in 6 minutes can't be pinned on just 1 player.  House and Scal weren't really doing anything at that time and KG, Rondo, and Paul were taken out of the game most of that stretch.