Marquis out Tuesday, Tony in?

[ssspence]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

[Chris]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

[ssspence]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

ugh. i'm all for ending that too. anything to break out of 2005.

[Roy Hobbs]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

ugh. i'm all for ending that too. anything to break out of 2005.

I just don't see any scenario where posters self-censor themselves from talking about one of our 15 players.  Nor, in my opinion, should they.

[ssspence]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

ugh. i'm all for ending that too. anything to break out of 2005.

I just don't see any scenario where posters self-censor themselves from talking about one of our 15 players.  Nor, in my opinion, should they.

there's a rather broad line between censorship and having the sense to avoid saying things over and over again like an abbott and costello.

a little creativity never killed anyone! well maybe it did but it wouldn't hurt on this particular topic.

[Chris]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

ugh. i'm all for ending that too. anything to break out of 2005.

I just don't see any scenario where posters self-censor themselves from talking about one of our 15 players.  Nor, in my opinion, should they.

there's a rather broad line between censorship and having the sense to avoid saying things over and over again like an abbott and costello.

a little creativity never killed anyone! well maybe it did but it wouldn't hurt on this particular topic.

Trust me, nothing good could come from being creative when talking about Tony Allen.

[ssspence]

I'm not sure what's more predictable, a guy showing some rust after playing competitive basketball for the first time in about 7 months (after being injured for pretty much the last year straight with torn ligaments in his ankle and thumb), or the Interneters using every opportunity to bash their favorite whipping boy Tony Allen.  You guys are so boring.  Get some new material.

When does it stop being rust, and start being just part of his game?  Did anyone not see that charge coming a mile away?  I know about half of my section groaned the second the ball was passed to him on the wing, with a man underneath.

Tony is what he is, and rust has nothing to do with it.  He is an aggressive player who does not know how to play under control and within a structured system for extended periods of time.  He ALWAYS has major lapses that cost his team.  

I will say what I have always said about Tony.  Put him on a 20 win team, where he can basically do what he wants, because no one else knows how to play with structure either (see: 2006 Celtics), and he is a hell of a producer.  I think if you put him on the Wolves right now, he would average 18, 5, and 4.  But you put him on a team like the C's, and he is a major liability.

all of this stuff has been said before ad nauseum. does it really bare repeating every time the guy sees the floor? ugh.

Probably not, but I can't help myself when people make the whole "it's just the injuries" argument.  We have seen him healthy plenty of times in his career, and he has always been the same player, with the only difference being whether he could jump over guys heads or not.  

That’s overdoing it a bit. He’s had some good stretches in his career on lesser teams, but confidence and rhythm are obviously major issues for tony. So you’re point is certainly valid regarding how he’d likely improve on a bad team. But you and I and the rest of this thread have been talking about this forever! He’ll likely be traded or will simply expire this year. In the meantime he’s a stopgap solution. I wonder if we can leave behind this “tony allen will never get it” conversation once and for all….

As long as there are people suggesting he will help the team, we will still be having this discussion.  I'm sorry to break that to you. 

ugh. i'm all for ending that too. anything to break out of 2005.

I just don't see any scenario where posters self-censor themselves from talking about one of our 15 players.  Nor, in my opinion, should they.

there's a rather broad line between censorship and having the sense to avoid saying things over and over again like an abbott and costello.

a little creativity never killed anyone! well maybe it did but it wouldn't hurt on this particular topic.

Trust me, nothing good could come from being creative when talking about Tony Allen.

cmon, tony is one of the top skippers in the league. he's also one of the elite post-sunk screamers you'll fine anywhere.

[scoop]

And Quis's production thus far has set a pretty low standard.  All TA's got to do to duplicate Quis is walk the ball up the court one out of every 4 possessions, camp out in the corner, cut to the basket occasionally, and create something at the end of the clock if House and Wallace haven't chucked it by then.

Allen can't do that. Daniels usage rate this season is 15.4%. Tony has never come close of having that kind of usage rate - his career minimum is 18.8%. Last season, playing Daniels role, his usg rate was 21.5% - above Ray Allen, Rondo, House or Perkins.

Until two seasons ago I used to hope that Tony Allen could learn to play in a more humble way - doing less on the court, playing within his role, not trying to be a shot-producer so often: that would help him to be more consistent. As of now, I see no reason to keep believing that can happen.

Daniels knows when and where to cut, Tony doesn't and will cut towards someone isolating in the post offering the opponents a free double-team. Daniels knows how to keep the ball movement, Tony only knows how to kill ball movement. Daniels knows how to move on the floor to create spacing, Tony doesn't. Daniels can play relatively mistaken-free even when under-producing, Tony Allen can't.

Tony Allen will play his brand of basketball, he doesn't know any other. Then he'll either contribute positively or negatively (the later is more probable).

First of all, I don't agree that Daniels is appreciatively better than TA at cutting to the hoop.  Where he differentiates himself from TA is his control and decision-making with the ball in his hands.

That brings us to the whole issue of usage.  In such a low-usage role Daniels is not bringing much more than TA.  He's an equally poor shooter so he isn't hitting from long range and spacing the floor, nor is he especially big and athletic, setting screens or grabbing boards that TA couldn't. Nor are his intangibles noticably elevating the play of his mates.  House and Wallace are both struggling.

The bench needs Daniels to be higher usage.  It would be one thing if he was taking a backseat to more capable teammates.  But that's not the case.  He's the best passer and only slasher of the bench bunch. Right now an enormous % of bench possessions are consumed by Sheed, one of the lowest % shooters on the team.  
 
If TA produces at last year's levels his net impact would be comparable to what Daniels is giving us right now.  Daniels is doing very little, and doing even less wrong.  Meanwhile Sheed is doing much more than he should.  If TA comes in and does a lot, good and bad, Sheed will do less, and the bench will probably fare the same.  The blame will just shift somewhat from Sheed to TA.

Just to make a clarification, I was using "cutter" strictly in the sense of off-the-ball cutter. I believe Daniels is way better than Tony moving off the ball and cutting to the basket. When it comes to dribble-driving, I guess Allen is superior if only because Daniels rarely attacks the rim as the ball handler - his game is more based on short-range shots.

As for the usage, I can see your point; but in the long run - and I mean in the playoffs - what this team needs is a low usage wing backup, not a high usage one. This is one of the reasons why I've always said Tony is a bad fit as the primary wing backup for a contender (at least one built like the Celtics, with plenty of shot-producers): his inability to play off-the-ball and to do more with less (or just less harm with less) make him unsuitable for such a role. However, I think you're overestimating the net value of Tony's contributions. For example, I'd take a Sheed missed shot over an Allen's turnover every day and so would you.

[CelticG1]

All Tony has to do for people to stop hating on him is not turn over the ball once this season, give pierce and Ray plenty of rest, play great defense against the best swing men in the league, score 10 ppg on 100% shooting and have 5 apg. No seriously I don't think there is anything TA can do to get anyone to like him at this point. People are going to hate him no matter what.

[snively]

Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Painting this as a typical night for TA is disingenous.  Over his career he's averaged 7+ pts on 47+% FG shooting 75% FT shooting, with 2+ boards, a steal, a slightly negative a/to differential(1.3a/1.4to) and 2+ fouls.  So basically tonight we got all of the typical bad and very little of the typical good.

The amount of hate for TA is disproportionate to his deficiencies.  Yes he's a high turnover, high foul guy and he's never going to live up to the hype that he generated in 06, but he's also a moderately effective scorer off the bench who usually generates slightly more positive than negative.  You don't want to depend on him in a close playoff game, but as a regular season 9th man he's very adequate and a far superior option to Giddens or Walker.

I actually like TA with this year's bench a lot better than last year.  With Sheed pulling a big man to the perimeter, TA's going to have a lot more room to drive.  House/TA/Ray/Baby/Sheed is a pretty solid line-up.  Of course a healthy Daniels is a more reliable option, but TA playing certainly doesn't merit the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Atzar]

Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Painting this as a typical night for TA is disingenous.  Over his career he's averaged 7+ pts on 47+% FG shooting 75% FT shooting, with 2+ boards, a steal, a slightly negative a/to differential(1.3a/1.4to) and 2+ fouls.  So basically tonight we got all of the typical bad and very little of the typical good.

The amount of hate for TA is disproportionate to his deficiencies.  Yes he's a high turnover, high foul guy and he's never going to live up to the hype that he generated in 06, but he's also a moderately effective scorer off the bench who usually generates slightly more positive than negative.  You don't want to depend on him in a close playoff game, but as a regular season 9th man he's very adequate and a far superior option to Giddens or Walker.

I actually like TA with this year's bench a lot better than last year.  With Sheed pulling a big man to the perimeter, TA's going to have a lot more room to drive.  House/TA/Ray/Baby/Sheed is a pretty solid line-up.  Of course a healthy Daniels is a more reliable option, but TA playing certainly doesn't merit the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Can't do that.  For a lot of his career, he started and played more minutes than he will now.  As a bench player, his contributions are substantially lower than that.

If he could take care of the ball better, I'd agree that he'd fit the second unit pretty well.  But he can't, so he doesn't.

[snively]

Tony had one of his patented nights tonight:

2 turnovers, 2 fouls, and the Celts were outscored by 8 in the 6 minutes Tony was in there.

Good stuff out of you, Tony.  Keep up the good work.

Painting this as a typical night for TA is disingenous.  Over his career he's averaged 7+ pts on 47+% FG shooting 75% FT shooting, with 2+ boards, a steal, a slightly negative a/to differential(1.3a/1.4to) and 2+ fouls.  So basically tonight we got all of the typical bad and very little of the typical good.

The amount of hate for TA is disproportionate to his deficiencies.  Yes he's a high turnover, high foul guy and he's never going to live up to the hype that he generated in 06, but he's also a moderately effective scorer off the bench who usually generates slightly more positive than negative.  You don't want to depend on him in a close playoff game, but as a regular season 9th man he's very adequate and a far superior option to Giddens or Walker.

I actually like TA with this year's bench a lot better than last year.  With Sheed pulling a big man to the perimeter, TA's going to have a lot more room to drive.  House/TA/Ray/Baby/Sheed is a pretty solid line-up.  Of course a healthy Daniels is a more reliable option, but TA playing certainly doesn't merit the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Can't do that.  For a lot of his career, he started and played more minutes than he will now.  As a bench player, his contributions are substantially lower than that.

If he could take care of the ball better, I'd agree that he'd fit the second unit pretty well.  But he can't, so he doesn't.

Actually Aztar, as a bench player last year, playing 19.3 minutes a game (1 less than Daniels has average thus far), his stats were a touch better than the ones I listed.

Do you think turnovers are an unforgivable sin?  TA is the most turnover prone guard on the team (other than Giddens), but he's also one of the best ball-thieves and slashers.  Play TA and you will get more turnovers and fouls, but his past performance indicates that you also get more efficient points and steals than his counterparts and comparable production in the rest of the categories.

[Atzar]

Can't do that.  For a lot of his career, he started and played more minutes than he will now.  As a bench player, his contributions are substantially lower than that.

If he could take care of the ball better, I'd agree that he'd fit the second unit pretty well.  But he can't, so he doesn't.

Actually Aztar, as a bench player last year, playing 19.3 minutes a game (1 less than Daniels has average thus far), his stats were a touch better than the ones I listed.

Do you think turnovers are an unforgivable sin?  TA is the most turnover prone guard on the team (other than Giddens), but he's also one of the best ball-thieves and slashers.  Play TA and you will get more turnovers and fouls, but his past performance indicates that you also get more efficient points and steals than his counterparts and comparable production in the rest of the categories.

He hasn't started over his career as much as I thought he has... my bad on that.

That said, I don't think turnovers are an unforgivable sin.  I think loads of mental errors are an unforgivable sin - turnovers are just part of it.  Fouling on a jumpshot.  Charging blindly into the lane and running somebody over.  Drawing defenders into the lane and, instead of kicking to an open shooter, chucking a missile at the front of the rim. 

I definitely don't consider him one of the team's best slashers.  Pierce, Rondo, Ray, and Daniels are all better.

What are we even arguing?  That he can do good things?  I know he can make good things happen.  Gabe Pruitt did some good things.  JR can do good things.  The idea is to be a bigger net positive than the alternatives.  That he is the best option right now is not complimentary of Tony, but rather just shows how ineffective Giddens has been and how far from ready Walker is.

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't want to bring negativity to the "Support Tony Allen Thread", so I'll post this here:  It's amazing that our expectations are so low that a game where Tony has three turnovers (and three personal fouls) in 17 minutes is hailed as a great performance.  Overall, he did some good things, especially in the first half.  However, in the second half I wasn't all that impressed.

People used to praise Tony when he had his "good Tony" moments, where he could temporarily take over a game for the Celts.  Now, it seems like the guy's name is shouted from the rooftops when "mediocre Tony" shows up.  It's an interesting phenomena.

[snively]

I don't want to bring negativity to the "Support Tony Allen Thread", so I'll post this here:  It's amazing that our expectations are so low that a game where Tony has three turnovers (and three personal fouls) in 17 minutes is hailed as a great performance.  Overall, he did some good things, especially in the first half.  However, in the second half I wasn't all that impressed.

People used to praise Tony when he had his "good Tony" moments, where he could temporarily take over a game for the Celts.  Now, it seems like the guy's name is shouted from the rooftops when "mediocre Tony" shows up.  It's an interesting phenomena.

It's not that amazing when you take into account the apocalyptic descriptions of his bad games.  It's more amazing to me how much irrational hate TA gets from such rational posters. 

Zach Lowe at Celticshub is one example.  Took a good paragraph to bash TA for that stolen pass foul on Jamison sequence as if it was some uniquely TA like occurence when Ray Allen had two turnovers that were way uglier.  The emotional distaste for TA comes out too strong at such times.

Over-hate and others will over-rate.