"We DO/DON'T Want Allen Iverson" Thread (merged)

[moiso]

eric- if the name of the game is winning, Conley is better.  If the goal is to build a good team in the long term, Conley is better.  If the goal is to make all the other players more content and help them develop, Conley is better.
And your acting like Memphis should have signed AI.  They did!  And he quit after 3 games!  He didn't even wait around to see what his role would be.
If you believe anything that comes out of AI's mouth, he says he didn't like the losing and wants to play for a winner.  Yet you are suggesting the Sacramento Kings.  Why?  To hinder Tyreke Evans and Kevin Martin's development?  Did you notice how Andre Iguadala became twice as good the instant AI left Philly?  And the whole team's morale picked up?  Did you notice how everyone on Detroit seemed to regress the minute they acquired AI?  And how Denver greatly improved the minute they got rid of him.  Just too much evidence against signing the guy.

[Eric_Suede]

Eric, how old are you? Just wondering for scientific purposes for a theory I have.

Don't know if i'm walking into a trap here but i'll bite. I'm 34. I don't live in Ma now (I live in the virgin Islands) but I was born & raised in Springfield,Ma. Been A die-hard C's fan since birth. I just respect great players. I do realize there's a point when a player has lost a step and can't really get you to the promise land but I personally think there's been far too many players whose Gravesite was marked and career buried when they still had 2-3 good solid seasons left. Hate to see a good player who contributed alot to the game go out like that. ESPECIALLY if there's not injury present. Tim hardaway comes to mind. At the end of his career he was still a force. Same with Dominique wilkins towards the end. Basically to describe part of my philosophy i'll state it like this........ I'll take a 1993 supposedly "over the hill" dominique wilkins over a "he might have a bright future" Gerald Green type any day of the week.

[Finkelskyhook]

And how did Memphis squander an opportunity?  AI was hurt.  When he was cleared to play he was beginning to be integrated into the team and before that could fully happen, AI quit.  I didn't realize when a player is cleared to play they immediately had to start and play 40minutes.  The C's didn't do it that way with KG...

Last year Iverson was "hurt"....When he didn't get starter's minutes...He didn't much care if his team was winning or losing then...Nor has he ever cared.  What Eric doesn't seem to process is that every team that Iverson leaves gets better.  Every team has gotten worse when obtaining Iverson.  It's not like those teams are overhauling their rosters when obtaining Iverson..Or there is some other overriding factor.  He is a selfish coach-killing team cancer and always has been.  His one year of success he had arguably the best coach of his era...Almost inarguably the best defensive center of his era, one of the best rebounding 4s in the NBA, and a great defensive 2-guard....Along with being allowed to do whatever he wanted to do on both ends of the court.  That ain't the real world in the NBA if you're trying to win a championship.

REALLY Finkelskyhook? You truly believe that? (point about conley being better than Iverson). well if you're not just an iverson hater and you really believe that then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Nothing I can really say to you. We can have this conversation again in about 6 years when you look at the accomplishments AI has and compare them to what Conley has accomplished. Personally I feel it's an insult. You saying that leads me to assume that you were in that camp long ago that felt that we should've stuck with our puppy squad. That Gerald Green Was our future and we "as many said back then" should hold on to him. I'm sorry Dude , I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you build a championship franchise by stockpiling a group of "puppies" with the hopes they'll grow into large rottweilers and pitbulls and you win a championship. You need PROVEN Vets (in addition to ) good young players to get you there. Had we stuck to our young guns #1 Pierce would've definitely have gotten discouraged and left and we'd be a glorified version of the timberwolves still searching for banner #17.

Iverson has been the common denominator on both types of teams.  Both types of teams get better when he leaves.  It isn't a coincidence, Eric.  Pierce took on a lesser role and actually played the quality of defense he hadn't played since playing for Obie.  Iverson's history with Denver and Detroit was to change his game to an actual team concept for a few games and revert back to being a stat hound.  You talk about his "accomplishments".  I've said that if he's in the hall of fame, it'll have the same legitimacy as the nobel peace prize. He's won a few scoring titles.  So what?  Do his teams have even a .500 record?  He's a "warrior"...Really?  He'd be legendary in a game of horse...But he's only a warrior  on one end of the court.  His accomplishments?  I'd first list the number of coaches in his wake.  I don't want this "caliber" player on my team.

I'd much rather have Conley.

By the way Eric, we tried the Dominique Wilkins experiment.

[LB3533]

Hey, let's be clear, it's not like Denver and Detroit got better just with the absence of AI, both teams added something or interchanged someone.

[Eric_Suede]

eric- if the name of the game is winning, Conley is better.  If the goal is to build a good team in the long term, Conley is better.  If the goal is to make all the other players more content and help them develop, Conley is better.
And your acting like Memphis should have signed AI.  They did!  And he quit after 3 games!  He didn't even wait around to see what his role would be.
If you believe anything that comes out of AI's mouth, he says he didn't like the losing and wants to play for a winner.  Yet you are suggesting the Sacramento Kings.  Why?  To hinder Tyreke Evans and Kevin Martin's development?  Did you notice how Andre Iguadala became twice as good the instant AI left Philly?  And the whole team's morale picked up?  Did you notice how everyone on Detroit seemed to regress the minute they acquired AI?  And how Denver greatly improved the minute they got rid of him.  Just too much evidence against signing the guy.

Yeah you're right. Once AI was out the picture look at the great showing Detroit did in the playoffs?   Dude Detroit is greatly improved cause they got rid of their real cancer THE COACH. Again We'll agree to disagree. That's what the NBDL is for is you need to Develop players. Denver improved cause of Chemistry issues. They didn't need a scorer they needed a floor general. They have scoring with or without AI. As with any player 'IN THE RIGHT SITUATION' it can work out. Problem is you guys have Lebron James/Kobe Bryant fever. Meaning thanks to those guys success (KG can be put on that list as well) coming right out of high school, many feel they Too can "win the lottery" and maybe their puppy will one day be vicious dogfighter. The fact is Those Special young phenoms are a rarity, If you want to build a championship , you establish chemistry with PROVEN Vets. I can't believe i'm still explaining this concept to fellow C's Fans. HAVE we not proven that ourselves. AT BEST had we maintained that "let our puppy Martin/Evan types" Develop then we can look forward to winning it all in 2011" philosophy we'd Still be losers. Ainge finally saw the light and brought in proven vets (which by the way didn't seem to hinder development our young guys like Big Baby & POWE when he was here) then we have #17. You think we would've won #17 if it weren't for KG , Ray allen? Dude In the right situation AI can be a great weapon to have on your team. If you're a terrible team going nowhere anyways.... Why Not?

[Eric_Suede]

And how did Memphis squander an opportunity?  AI was hurt.  When he was cleared to play he was beginning to be integrated into the team and before that could fully happen, AI quit.  I didn't realize when a player is cleared to play they immediately had to start and play 40minutes.  The C's didn't do it that way with KG...

Last year Iverson was "hurt"....When he didn't get starter's minutes...He didn't much care if his team was winning or losing then...Nor has he ever cared.  What Eric doesn't seem to process is that every team that Iverson leaves gets better.  Every team has gotten worse when obtaining Iverson.  It's not like those teams are overhauling their rosters when obtaining Iverson..Or there is some other overriding factor.  He is a selfish coach-killing team cancer and always has been.  His one year of success he had arguably the best coach of his era...Almost inarguably the best defensive center of his era, one of the best rebounding 4s in the NBA, and a great defensive 2-guard....Along with being allowed to do whatever he wanted to do on both ends of the court.  That ain't the real world in the NBA if you're trying to win a championship.

REALLY Finkelskyhook? You truly believe that? (point about conley being better than Iverson). well if you're not just an iverson hater and you really believe that then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Nothing I can really say to you. We can have this conversation again in about 6 years when you look at the accomplishments AI has and compare them to what Conley has accomplished. Personally I feel it's an insult. You saying that leads me to assume that you were in that camp long ago that felt that we should've stuck with our puppy squad. That Gerald Green Was our future and we "as many said back then" should hold on to him. I'm sorry Dude , I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you build a championship franchise by stockpiling a group of "puppies" with the hopes they'll grow into large rottweilers and pitbulls and you win a championship. You need PROVEN Vets (in addition to ) good young players to get you there. Had we stuck to our young guns #1 Pierce would've definitely have gotten discouraged and left and we'd be a glorified version of the timberwolves still searching for banner #17.

Iverson has been the common denominator on both types of teams.  Both types of teams get better when he leaves.  It isn't a coincidence, Eric.  Pierce took on a lesser role and actually played the quality of defense he hadn't played since playing for Obie.  Iverson's history with Denver and Detroit was to change his game to an actual team concept for a few games and revert back to being a stat hound.  You talk about his "accomplishments".  I've said that if he's in the hall of fame, it'll have the same legitimacy as the nobel peace prize. He's won a few scoring titles.  So what?  Do his teams have even a .500 record?  He's a "warrior"...Really?  He'd be legendary in a game of horse...But he's only a warrior  on one end of the court.  His accomplishments?  I'd first list the number of coaches in his wake.  I don't want this "caliber" player on my team.

I'd much rather have Conley.

#1 again we'll agree to disagree. By the way Conley has been the starter for a few years now. Wow look how far they've come. 
#2 I specifically said 1993 Nique, who at that time all the "experts" said he was done and should retire. Besides that you can't blame our 1995 woes on Nique?
a) as bad as that team was , still made playoffs.
b) what young phenom did we have back then that you can make a case and say Nique "hindered their development"?
c) who was the coach back then FORD? with M.L carr at the helm. Case Closed. Can't blame that teams failure on Nique.
#3 I'll repeat this till the cows come home. Remember when we picked up Ray Allen. Yeah that same RAY ALLEN who's "old" ,fresh off Ankle surgery? Would KG have signed with us? Would we have #17? Actually I'll go a step further, think back to 07 , let's say we signed AI and we had a backcourt of PP & AI? You think KG would be more likely to sign with a team that has AI and Pierce or Pierce and freakin Mike Conley?
All i'm going to say is I'm glad Ainge finally saw the light and didn't listen to many on this board or else we'd be 3-7. whining having discussions like "HOW COME GREEN IS SO CLUELESS ON DEFENSE" ,"FIRE DOC".


By the way Eric, we tried the Dominique Wilkins experiment.

[wdleehi]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

[wdleehi]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

And I dare someone to find a long term example (more then 10 games) where he did put team ahead of AI.  (and I mean actions, not words)

[Finkelskyhook]

#3 I'll repeat this till the cows come home. Remember when we picked up Ray Allen. Yeah that same RAY ALLEN who's "old" ,fresh off Ankle surgery? Would KG have signed with us? Would we have #17? Actually I'll go a step further, think back to 07 , let's say we signed AI and we had a backcourt of PP & AI? You think KG would be more likely to sign with a team that has AI and Pierce or Pierce and freakin Mike Conley?
All i'm going to say is I'm glad Ainge finally saw the light and didn't listen to many on this board or else we'd be 3-7. whining having discussions like "HOW COME GREEN IS SO CLUELESS ON DEFENSE" ,"FIRE DOC".

Ray Allen cares about winning.  Like Pierce, Allen sacrificed his offense and ramped up his  defense for the team.  Iverson cares about Iverson.  They are far from interchangable parts.  This is speculation of course.  (Garnett didn't sign with us..He was traded to us)  But I kind of think that Garnett would have "signed" with the Sioux Falls Skyforce for 27m.  But given the choice, if he wanted to win, he'd rather be on a team with Conley and Pierce than Iverson and anybody else. 

The reason we were so clueless on defense is because Rivers can't coach defense.  Danny idiot-proofed both the roster and the coaching staff.  He rid the team of all of the poor-man's Iversons.   Why would he want Iverson himself?

[JSD]

Personally, I'm all set with AI

[kenmaine]

From everything I've ever seen or heard, the man is just a total ****.
He's about to go the way of Sprewell- still able to play, but such a jerk that no one will touch him.
But I'd love to see the Knicks sign him- not enough bad things can happen to the Knicks.

[Fafnir]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

I think Iverson does care about winning, but he's also convinced 40 minutes of him playing his way is the best way to win.

[crownsy]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

I think Iverson does care about winning, but he's also convinced 40 minutes of him playing his way is the best way to win.

Ya, TP, thats the problem and why he can never be a good bench player.

[wdleehi]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

I think Iverson does care about winning, but he's also convinced 40 minutes of him playing his way is the best way to win.

If AI puts up his stats, AI thinks AI has won.

Now if his team happens to lose, well, the rest of the team lost. 


That seems to be the only time AI needs a team, when he loses and has someone else to blame.

[Finkelskyhook]

What is the right situation for AI to win?


The best was a team of over achiving defensive players that did not have to be involved in the offense to be productive PLUS a very weak Eastern Conference.


And that was when AI was in his prime. 

That team would be lucky now to get through the 2nd round. 



AI is all about AI. 

He cares nothing of winning.

He cares nothing of his teammates.


He only cares about AI and the stats that AI puts up. 

I think Iverson does care about winning, but he's also convinced 40 minutes of him playing his way is the best way to win.

Then I would go back to my assertion that Iverson is an idiot.  He's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that winning can't happen with him "carrying"   the team.  No matter the roster.  No matter who the coach is.