Tony Allen

[Cman]

In all seriousness, last night I had a dream that Tony Allen and Scals were traded for Mike Miller.

It was one of those weird dreams where you know it is a dream when it is happening, but you sort of let it keep going.  Of course the trade doesn't make any sense (the salaries don't match, nor does the talent exchanged).  But my immediate thought was "DA did it again!", closely followed by "Okay, now we need a slasher off the bench, a vet PG and another big man."

Anyway, thought I would share with you all.  I am still in a euphoric state from last night's W.
 

[CDawg834]

nothing personal...but please re-read the post:

1)i never said he was an elite defender
2)i never said he was the key

and, finally, to say playing TA is like playing 4 on 5 is just plain ludicrous...forget about insulting...if that is truly the case...and i mean truly...then somebody should jump out of the stands and grab Doc and tell him to play 4 on 5 next time he wants to put TA in...

I wasn't referring to you specifically as saying he was an elite defender, just using your post to point out that the perception is out there, but you did say that we will need his defense to beat the upper-echelon teams in this league.  I disagree, I think the team is better off without him on the court.

I will readily admit my "4 on 5" comment was an exaggeration, but there is some basis on what I said.  His inability to function within the team offense is a major problem, and I don't think his supposed defensive prowess justifies him being on the court. 

If I wouldn't get arrested, I would gladly run on the court to stop TA from checking into the game 

[rutzan]

LOL...that was good...unfortunately...right now...TA is as good an option as Eddie or Marbury...neither of them has played well...TA is far from a lockdown defender but we will need someone to stop the wings and he is as good a bet as anyone right now...

[nickagneta]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are not isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

[KungPoweChicken]

I think ONE posession TA played good D out there on Gordon. The rest were terrible. He was being jerked right and left on every crossover putting him out of position defensively. If Gordon wasn't hurt he'd have likely had 10 more free throws on him. Marbury did a much better job.

This is absolutely absurd. Allen has played the best defense on Gordon through out the whole series. You are letting your emotions get in the way of your eye sight. The notion that House or Marbury could play defense just as good as Allen is just stupid.

[BballTim]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

  While it was a mistake for TA to jump on that three if he'd backed off a little and given Gordon a clean look he'd be getting just as much criticism. Who on the Celts has played great defense on Gordon? Who's done a much better job than TA?

[EJPLAYA]

I think ONE posession TA played good D out there on Gordon. The rest were terrible. He was being jerked right and left on every crossover putting him out of position defensively. If Gordon wasn't hurt he'd have likely had 10 more free throws on him. Marbury did a much better job.

This is absolutely absurd. Allen has played the best defense on Gordon through out the whole series. You are letting your emotions get in the way of your eye sight. The notion that House or Marbury could play defense just as good as Allen is just stupid.

Not at all. He was a couple steps behind him on every play and when he caught up with him he was so off balance that he ended up committing stupid fouls. He had one good defensive stand where he made him shoot a tough shot and didn't foul him, but other than that the guy was all over the place. I don't think it was an effort issue, just the fact that he isn't very smart.

Where did I say once that House could play better defense on him? (I don't think he is any worse though due to his pesky style of D. He could have chased Gordon around as well, and not committed the stupid fouls)I said Marbury was playing solid D on him as well. You're putting words into my mouth...

Not sure how you dub him as playing great defense all series either as until last night he had basically sat the bench the whole series. Had Ray not got jobbed by the refs he would have done the same last night. 20 min in the previous 4 games with a dnp in there doesn't give him enough floor time to have played great D on anyone!

[crownsy]

I think ONE posession TA played good D out there on Gordon. The rest were terrible. He was being jerked right and left on every crossover putting him out of position defensively. If Gordon wasn't hurt he'd have likely had 10 more free throws on him. Marbury did a much better job.

This is absolutely absurd. Allen has played the best defense on Gordon through out the whole series. You are letting your emotions get in the way of your eye sight. The notion that House or Marbury could play defense just as good as Allen is just stupid.

If tony allen has played the best defense on ben gordon that we're capable of, we are royally screwed once we move on to better players with ORL and CLEV and tony's asked to cover those guys. He's been awful, and its only worse being that he is supposedly "a defensive specialist"

If tony allen passes for a good defender in today's NBA, i fear for the future of the game.

[crownsy]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

  While it was a mistake for TA to jump on that three if he'd backed off a little and given Gordon a clean look he'd be getting just as much criticism. Who on the Celts has played great defense on Gordon? Who's done a much better job than TA?

why exactly do i need to find a bench player who is doing better to conclude that he's an overrated defender given his history of stupid fouls in key situations?

Our whole contingent of bench guards are bad defenders, the difference is, TA is supposed to be our "defensive stopper" Thats the new excuse for his continued occupation of a celtics uniform among the TA crowd.

Pointing out correctly that the rest of our guards outside rondo struggle at defense is not a defense of TA, its a weak deflection that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is that TA is a vastly overrated defender, and should be replaced next year as our defender off the bench if this is all he can give us.

[Gruntled]

I'm not sure the Marbury did a better job, but I do agree that Allen's defense was bad on most of the possessions against Gordon.  Almost any time Allen has been on Gordon, this game and last game, he has been a step behing Gordon to start almost every play.  He recovers quickly if Gordon hesitates, but any move that involves a full stride from Gordon leaves Allen behind him.

Check out Tony Allen's first foul (not the three point foul).  He was two full steps behind Gordon coming off of screens, and only got close because Gordon did not look for his shot when he caught the ball.  Gordon made a quick step and got past Allen a second time before the foul.  Allen is very good at recovering if his man changes direction, but he has been horrible at staying in front of his man against Gordon's first step (with and without the ball).

Game 4 was the same thing.  Most plays, when Gordon was cutting to get the ball or making his first dribble, Tony Allen was completely behind Gordon.  It almost looks like Tony keeps getting caught flat footed.

This game there were two plays where Gordon made too many moves, and Allen did a good job of staying with him.  But overall, Allen seemed to be spending too much time trying to catch up to a player who supposedly had a bad hamstring (and should not be able to explode forward that well).  I'm not sure if Tony is shying away from contact on screens or just reacting slow, but it did not look like good defense to me.

[nickagneta]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

  While it was a mistake for TA to jump on that three if he'd backed off a little and given Gordon a clean look he'd be getting just as much criticism. Who on the Celts has played great defense on Gordon? Who's done a much better job than TA?

I have no problem with the way Tony plays defense most of the time but he is just way to mental mistake prone to keep him out there for any extended period of time and especially late.  But it's not a given that if Tony didn't jump on that play that Gordon makes the shot as your defense of him is alluding to. If he had held his ground and put his arms straight in the air then he did the best he could and congrats to Gordon if he makes an extremely difficult shot after some great defense is played by him.

But Tony will always make that mistake. He had no right trying to block that shot earlier in the OT. Gordon faked him out and was clearly 5 feet by Tony and in the air when Tony jumped from afar to attempt to block the shot and instead landed on Gordon(or next to him) and sent him to the line after Gordon missed.(See Gordon can actually miss a shot). That's five free trips to the line for a team that otherwise couldn't do a thing offensively in the OT. That can't happen.

As for who will guard Gordon instead of Tony, I'll take my chances with Rondo covering him and letting Eddie or Stephon guard Rose. Or maybe just Stephon in that instance. Long term Ray Allen. Ray played a bunch of good defense on Gordon during some of those stretches where Gordon went off. It's just that Gordon hit shots. Tough shots. The more power to him. Also, I want someone on the floor that forces Gordon not to be able to rest on the defensive side of the ball. He has to expend energy playing defense and, sorry, but he doesn't have to do that with Tony, or being fair, Marbury.

[acieEarl]

I figured you'd be by soon, Brick.

I've looked at it three times on the DVR. It's a foul every single time.

It's a shame, really, because his overall body of work against Gordon was good.

But it's also vintage Tony: Mental mistakes that undo anything good he can do for you.

Yea it was a foul and I knew it was coming. Tony tried playing lock down D and all Gordon had to do was lean into him. Dumb play by Tony. Let him fire up a tough 3 pointer, if he hits it, well he hits it. Can't give him 3 free throws.

[ScoobyDoo]

I too get frustrated with Doc's rotations. I made a post earlier this year that we've got a Rolls Royce ( our big three with Perk and Rondo) and Ainge went out this summer and put Bicycle tires on that Rolls Royce with our bench. Why buy the Rolls then? But as you mention "thedawg" and which I agree with, we've got to use what we have. I beleive Doc should be using Marbury, Moore, House, Allen and Scal at least enough to get our starters 10 minutes of rest. Mix them in, don't mass sub.

I'm not saying Tony doesn't make some bad mistakes, he does. But as others have mentioned, we've got to use what we have. And we will need him moving forward for sure. We've got to use what we have.

If Tony makes horrible mistakes and the trust isn't there, then at least use him earlier, along with other guys on our bench that we don't trust...earlier in the game when it isn't as critical.

Because of injuries and not having astacked bench this year, we've got to use what we have to rest the starters. If we don't, they're not going to have the legs the further we go. At least if we can buy our starters some rest here and there, they'll have a shot.   

[Edgar]

I figured you'd be by soon, Brick.

I've looked at it three times on the DVR. It's a foul every single time.

It's a shame, really, because his overall body of work against Gordon was good.

But it's also vintage Tony: Mental mistakes that undo anything good he can do for you.

Yea it was a foul and I knew it was coming. Tony tried playing lock down D and all Gordon had to do was lean into him. Dumb play by Tony. Let him fire up a tough 3 pointer, if he hits it, well he hits it. Can't give him 3 free throws.

he was doing a fine job till then..
oh well lapses as usual for TA.
but i can still live with him when defense is needed.

[KungPoweChicken]

Outside of Rondo, Tony is the only Celtics player who is quick enough to stay with Gordon. Tony is the best option for defending Gordon. Sure, Tony made a costly foul at the end of the game that we'd all like to have back. But I would rather have a guy play aggressively on Gordon rather than not even get a hand up (Pierce and Ray.) You cannot criticize a guys body of work because he made a bad foul. In my opinion, since Tony was guarding Gordon, Gordon was visibly flustered and took shots that were even more difficult than he took before. To be clear, I'm not saying Tony is the best defensive player in the league. I'm saying he's our best option for Gordon. Yes, I know he's made some bad fouls before in crucial situations, but Doc also has a strange habit of putting him in big situations when he's completely cold. Had he been in the game longer, I would have had complete faith he wouldn't have made the foul. Nonetheless, I'm not making excuses for Tony. I can live with his defensive mistakes. Because even with the mistakes he makes, he's still a far better defender than what we have at the wing position.