Author Topic: Tony Allen  (Read 28251 times)

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Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2009, 01:56:04 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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Deleted my own post...I was going off memory and blamed TA for something Rondo did.  Good catch Aztar.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:06:21 PM by CDawg834 »

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2009, 02:00:24 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Tony Allen's defense is the most overrated attribute in the NBA.

He has the physical tools, but gambles way too much and makes too many mistakes. Again and again.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2009, 02:00:57 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Tony Allen's defense is the most overrated attribute in the NBA.

He has the physical tools, but gambles way too much and makes too many mistakes. Again and again.

Well... at least on this blog...

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2009, 02:01:11 PM »

Offline Atzar

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In addition, as a hypothetical, let's say Nick and I (and others) are wrong about the foul on the 3.  I don't agree, but suppose TA is off the hook on that one.  Let's say Gordon was out of bounds or that it wasn't a foul.  On the final Bulls possession of overtime, did anyone else notice Brad Miller got wide open because TA and Perk completely blew a switch?  That forced Rondo to run in and foul Miller hard.  TA got caught in a Miller pick, Perk picked up TA's man, but TA didn't stay with Miller.

Even if you give himthe benefit of the doubt on the Gordon 3, he made another major mistake on D on the Bulls final offensive possession of the game!  He saw Perk pick up his man but didn't stay on Perk's man, leaving the C's completely out of position to guard him.

Um, go back and watch the play.  Rondo got caught on Miller's moving screen, so Perk stepped out on Gordon as Rondo tried to recover.  This left Miller wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6JpEx_CqOc

TA's guilty of many things, but that's not one of them.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2009, 02:09:07 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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You're right on this.  I couldn't check Youtube for the replay at work, and mistakenly thought it was TA when it was Rondo.  My bad, post deleted.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2009, 02:10:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think ONE posession TA played good D out there on Gordon. The rest were terrible. He was being jerked right and left on every crossover putting him out of position defensively. If Gordon wasn't hurt he'd have likely had 10 more free throws on him. Marbury did a much better job.





This is absolutely absurd. Allen has played the best defense on Gordon through out the whole series. You are letting your emotions get in the way of your eye sight. The notion that House or Marbury could play defense just as good as Allen is just stupid.

If tony allen has played the best defense on ben gordon that we're capable of, we are royally screwed once we move on to better players with ORL and CLEV and tony's asked to cover those guys. He's been awful, and its only worse being that he is supposedly "a defensive specialist"


  Just curious, but aside from LeBron, which wing players from Orlando or Cleveland do you think are harder to guard than Gordon?

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2009, 02:13:33 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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TA supporters can't give any ration reasons behind liking the guy therefore they instead choose to make personal attacks. Stating over and over " he's a great defender" doesn't make it so. The guy is a "decent" defender, nothing more. Great offensive players like Gordon lick their chops when a guy like TA is guarding them because they know they can bait them into committing stupid fouls. You may call it getting bailed out by the refs, but everyone else would call it a dumb foul by TA and a smart play by Gordon.

You don't have to agree with the anti-TA crowd, but stop making it personal. No one does that to you.



I did provide reasoning in a previous post as to why Tony Allen should get the defensive assignment on Gordon. I'm sorry if you missed it. The summary of the post was that he's the best guy for the job. As for the "personal attack", I thought Nick's post was clearly just trying to instigate conflict. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2009, 02:44:14 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I'd like to give a Tommy point to Bball Tim: 18-3 when Tony Allen plays 20+ minutes. Nice research, way to back up your comments. I wasn't awre of that. Also two Tommy points for Kungpowe Chicken: one for your name, one for the fighting spirit.

Look, Tony's a lightining Rod player, you love him or hate him.

But, the rational reasons for playing him in this sereis have actually been well documented by TA supporters. They are, in no specific order:

1. We are getting absolutely mauled offensively by Chicago's backcourt combo of Rose, Heinrich and Gordon and at the three by Salmons. No one else on that team is even scaring 20 points on most nights.

2. Main reason is speed, same thing that hurt us last year against the more athletic teams, Atalnata being one of them. Pierce is too slow for Salmons, Ray too slow for Gordon and Rondo could use a break now and then against Rose. TA has the most speed and length of our guys coming off the bench at the wing. Therefore he needs to be in the conversation and in the game. 

It's not an unsult to Paul or Ray or Rondo or a personal attack against any TA detractors either. It's just an incredibaly clear fact.  Not playing TA more in this series when we are gettting destroyed by small, fast wing players would be like putting Pierce on Dwight Howard when you have Big baby on the bench...it doesn't compute.   

3. When you are getting mauled offesnively, sometimes it might be a good idea to make an adjustment against the guys mauling you. That adjustment to me would be throwing everything I had, including the kitchen sink at the problem. Tony Allen is part of everything I have to work with. He's getting minutes rotating on Rose, Gordon and Salmons.

4. The additional bonus is that if you rotate Tony in earlier in the game, you get some desperately needed rest for Ray and Paul so they can be more fresh down the stretch. It's a win/win playing TA more minutes, especially with as depleted as this team is right now and because we are playing a team with multiple fast wing players.

Now, while I am obviously a TA supporter for the role he can play, I defiantely understand his shortcoming and why some might be very uncomfortable with him down the stretch. I am too sometimes...waiting for the inevitable mistake to come. But it would have been very unfair to blame the loss on Tony had we lost yesterday because of the three point foul. All had plenty of head scratching mistakes that played.

However, perhaps to avoid that, play him earlier in spots he can help on these wings and get Pierce and Ray more rest early. It might be a situation where we play stronger in the second because we're more rested, fresher.

I don't think we can see if Tony plays 20+ minutes or doesn't we'll win or lose on that fact. That's not really fair. But I'd say you definately play him 20+ minutes and let him get sticky with Rose, Salmons and Gordon and do it form the start, late in the 1st or early in the second.

We need to use what we have.     

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2009, 03:08:41 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

  Seems pretty reasonable, since we're 18-3 this year with Tony playing 20+ minutes.
Under that reasoning we should surely then play J R Giddens some minutes because whenever he played the Celtics were 3-0.

Under that reasoning we should play Bill Walker 10 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 9-2.

Under that reasoning we should play Mikki Moore 17 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 11-4.

Please, your stat is meaningless in the context provided. I could provide stats showing that Marbury, House, Tony, Davis and Moore are a better functioning 5 man unit than our normal or current starting five. Does that mean Doc should start and play that combo extensive minutes rather than Ray, Paul, Perk, Rondo, and Davis?

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2009, 03:21:26 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Moore, Giddens and Walker have never been anything even close to steady role players for this team. None of them has ever scared playign 20+ minutes a game for any stretch whatesoever. Therefore the comparison of saying we won when one of these three guys played 2 minutes in a game for three games dosn't hold water.

Tony Allen, on the other hand, when healthy, has been a steady role player as far as 20+ minutes a game for several years. Big difference. Using those three guys as a comparison is really like using POB...the minutes they have gotten are completely meaningless for the most part. Meanwhile, there ahve been tiems where Tony has made good, solid contributions on an ongoing basis.

Look, the guy has major limitations, but he plays physical D, works hard and he's what we've got. We have to figure out how to maximize what we have until we have a better option than TA. Meanwhile, we are gettig roasted by three quick wings who are pushing us to 6 or maybe seven games. I want more speed and toughness in there against them. IMHO   

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2009, 03:32:35 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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You haters are going to hate and there is nothing I can do about it.

But I remember similar threads involving Delonte West, with the haters saying that he'll never succeed, can't go to his right, undersized, would not even be on the roster of a good team, blah blah blah.

So now he's starting on one of the two best teams in the league and playing outstanding ball.  Shows you how much those haters knew.


Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2009, 03:38:38 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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As I've said before, Tony's problem is that he's simply not intelligent enough to leave on the floor for more than two or three possessions. The longer you leave him on the floor, the more the odds of a catastrophic mental mistake go up.

Sad, really, because if he could think the game at all, he'd be a useful player. He might then approximate the ability of the guy I kept calling for tonight. But basketball-wise, he's Gerald Green-style dumb and you can't fix stupid.

He's got to go in the off-season.

I agree that Tony is not the answer in the role he is asked to play.  However, I take a gentler view regarding his basketball intelligence.  I actually think that it is inconsistency rather stupidity.  If you watch TA over the course of a game, he can actually show a reasonably high level of court awareness at times -- and will often make the correct pass -- sometimes very intelligent passes.  Unfortunately, lapses (perhaps in his focus or related to over-exhuberance -- or over-focus) cause him to intersperse bad plays amongst the decent plays.  Overall, this makes him a less than valuable player who teases us with the value he could provide if he were more consistent.  I like Tony's attitude on the bench -- he seems like a young man who wants to do right, but gets himself into bad situations by making ill-advised decisions. I'm not attmeping to mitigate his responsibility for his actions, but just looking at the metaphor of life decisions and basketball decisions.  It's not impossible for him to improve in this area -- brain research lends some support for guys still developing brain capacity in certain areas of the brain past age 25.  

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2009, 03:46:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

  Seems pretty reasonable, since we're 18-3 this year with Tony playing 20+ minutes.
Under that reasoning we should surely then play J R Giddens some minutes because whenever he played the Celtics were 3-0.

Under that reasoning we should play Bill Walker 10 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 9-2.

Under that reasoning we should play Mikki Moore 17 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 11-4.

Please, your stat is meaningless in the context provided. I could provide stats showing that Marbury, House, Tony, Davis and Moore are a better functioning 5 man unit than our normal or current starting five. Does that mean Doc should start and play that combo extensive minutes rather than Ray, Paul, Perk, Rondo, and Davis?

  Sure, Nick. If you can't figure out the difference between the minutes TA (who was leading the bench in minutes and averaging almost 20 a game until he was injured) and rookies who played mainly in blowouts than I can see why you would think it was meaningless. I'm guessing the reasoning behind your original statement based on something much more meaningful than actual results from actual games, right?

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2009, 03:47:52 PM »

Offline BballTim

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You haters are going to hate and there is nothing I can do about it.

But I remember similar threads involving Delonte West, with the haters saying that he'll never succeed, can't go to his right, undersized, would not even be on the roster of a good team, blah blah blah.

So now he's starting on one of the two best teams in the league and playing outstanding ball.  Shows you how much those haters knew.



  You have to admit, though, when he was on the Celts he couldn't go to his right.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2009, 03:52:23 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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You haters are going to hate and there is nothing I can do about it.

But I remember similar threads involving Delonte West, with the haters saying that he'll never succeed, can't go to his right, undersized, would not even be on the roster of a good team, blah blah blah.

So now he's starting on one of the two best teams in the league and playing outstanding ball.  Shows you how much those haters knew.



  You have to admit, though, when he was on the Celts he couldn't go to his right.
Sometimes it is better to concentrate on what players can do rather than fixate on what they can't do.