Tony Allen

[BballTim]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had something to do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

You really believe that do you? Okay, that obviously points out that you really aren't paying attention.

Last year Doc shortened his rotation so much that Posey, House, Casell, Baby, and Powe received significant playing time at times during the playoffs. What did Doc do, shorten his playoff rotation down to only 10 players instead of playing every player on the bench?

And Tony has been back from injury and proved physically he is fine because he played two games in a row at the end of the season with over 30 minutes per game.

  Yes, different people received significant playing time AT TIMES during the playoffs. Doc mainly played a 3 man bench with a big (sometimes 2, probably depending on Perk's minutes), a wing and a pg. He started playing only Sam, then when Sam sucked he went with Eddie. He switched back to Sam and then he switched back to Eddie. He didn't (unless he did for injury) give both of them significant time in the same game. Since Posey never played as badly as the bench players who were shuffled out of the rotation we never saw much of Tony.

  How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I wasn't paying attention? Is it not true that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs, using Posey as his backup wing? Is it not true that Tony just came back from being injured for 2 months? Or is it just because I was unable to read Doc's mind to find out that the only reason that TA didn't play much is because Doc doesn't trust him? I mean, the signs are all there, right? He came back and played big minutes in the last 2 games, probably with most of the starters out of the lineup. Clearly that's more than enough time to integrate him back into the lineup.

How much more do I have to explain this for you to get it?

Doc shortened his rotation and Tony was never one of the players getting significant minutes? Why? Because Tony wasn't good enough to be trusted with the minutes. Doc went with, over the course of the post season, 10 different players in his rotations. Tony was not one of them, hence he wasn't good enough to trust to be in the rotations? Is that so hard to understand?

  I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. In most of the playoff games Doc mainly played 1 big, 1 pg and 1 wing. TA would be seen as a wing. Do you think that, when taking out Perk, Doc decides between PJ, Baby, Leon  and Tony Allen? Of course not. Tony was competing for the wing minutes with Posey. Get it? Whether the big minutes were all given to PJ, split between PJ, Baby and Leon or given to Clifford Ray and Scott Pollard they weren't going to TA. Any minutes that he got would have come from Posey, who was our best bench player in the playoffs last year. Was that simple enough?

  Also, you seem to feel that if Doc played more than one player at a given spot (like Sam and Eddie) that shows that he "trusts" them. What really happened was that neither of them were capable of playing well enough to hold down the spot, the way Posey did.

As for the "he was just coming back from injury" excuse you used, that excuse implies that Tony isn't healthy enough to play the minutes that you suggest he can be trusted with this year. It implies that Doc isn't using him not because he isn't good enough to trust with minutes but because he isn't healthy enough to play those minutes. So playing back to back games of over 30 minutes per game proves that his injury is no longer an issue and the excuse that "he just came back from injury" makes zero sense.

  No, it doesn't imply that at all. He hasn't played much in the last few months so he's probably still getting back into game shape, he's probably rusty and he hasn't played or practiced with the team very much since February. I never said that his injury is still an issue. Sorry that this is so confusing for you.

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

[CoachBo]

Awful lot of rhetoric here for no good reason.

Tony Allen's got talent and he can defend. But he's a basketball dolt, who cannot be trusted to play large chunks of minutes in a playoff environment.

It isn't going to change, and as a result, he has no useful spot on this roster. Put down the "Tony will replace Posey" fantasies. It didn't happen. It's not going to happen. Posey's gone, and Tony needs to be. I look forward to a more versatile, intelligent 3 on the roster next fall.

[Change]

Awful lot of rhetoric here for no good reason.

Tony Allen's got talent and he can defend. But he's a basketball dolt, who cannot be trusted to play large chunks of minutes in a playoff environment.

It isn't going to change, and as a result, he has no useful spot on this roster. Put down the "Tony will replace Posey" fantasies. It didn't happen. It's not going to happen. Posey's gone, and Tony needs to be. I look forward to a more versatile, intelligent 3 on the roster next fall.

Well said.

We had high expectations for him being our 6th man. He played his way to being 11th man

[nickagneta]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had something to do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

You really believe that do you? Okay, that obviously points out that you really aren't paying attention.

Last year Doc shortened his rotation so much that Posey, House, Casell, Baby, and Powe received significant playing time at times during the playoffs. What did Doc do, shorten his playoff rotation down to only 10 players instead of playing every player on the bench?

And Tony has been back from injury and proved physically he is fine because he played two games in a row at the end of the season with over 30 minutes per game.

  Yes, different people received significant playing time AT TIMES during the playoffs. Doc mainly played a 3 man bench with a big (sometimes 2, probably depending on Perk's minutes), a wing and a pg. He started playing only Sam, then when Sam sucked he went with Eddie. He switched back to Sam and then he switched back to Eddie. He didn't (unless he did for injury) give both of them significant time in the same game. Since Posey never played as badly as the bench players who were shuffled out of the rotation we never saw much of Tony.

  How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I wasn't paying attention? Is it not true that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs, using Posey as his backup wing? Is it not true that Tony just came back from being injured for 2 months? Or is it just because I was unable to read Doc's mind to find out that the only reason that TA didn't play much is because Doc doesn't trust him? I mean, the signs are all there, right? He came back and played big minutes in the last 2 games, probably with most of the starters out of the lineup. Clearly that's more than enough time to integrate him back into the lineup.

How much more do I have to explain this for you to get it?

Doc shortened his rotation and Tony was never one of the players getting significant minutes? Why? Because Tony wasn't good enough to be trusted with the minutes. Doc went with, over the course of the post season, 10 different players in his rotations. Tony was not one of them, hence he wasn't good enough to trust to be in the rotations? Is that so hard to understand?

  I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. In most of the playoff games Doc mainly played 1 big, 1 pg and 1 wing. TA would be seen as a wing. Do you think that, when taking out Perk, Doc decides between PJ, Baby, Leon  and Tony Allen? Of course not. Tony was competing for the wing minutes with Posey. Get it? Whether the big minutes were all given to PJ, split between PJ, Baby and Leon or given to Clifford Ray and Scott Pollard they weren't going to TA. Any minutes that he got would have come from Posey, who was our best bench player in the playoffs last year. Was that simple enough?

  Also, you seem to feel that if Doc played more than one player at a given spot (like Sam and Eddie) that shows that he "trusts" them. What really happened was that neither of them were capable of playing well enough to hold down the spot, the way Posey did.

As for the "he was just coming back from injury" excuse you used, that excuse implies that Tony isn't healthy enough to play the minutes that you suggest he can be trusted with this year. It implies that Doc isn't using him not because he isn't good enough to trust with minutes but because he isn't healthy enough to play those minutes. So playing back to back games of over 30 minutes per game proves that his injury is no longer an issue and the excuse that "he just came back from injury" makes zero sense.

  No, it doesn't imply that at all. He hasn't played much in the last few months so he's probably still getting back into game shape, he's probably rusty and he hasn't played or practiced with the team very much since February. I never said that his injury is still an issue. Sorry that this is so confusing for you.

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something. The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

[BballTim]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

[crownsy]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

you really think 8 minutes in a first half is a significant chunk when the other 12 come in the 4th quarter when your up 20+?

I disagree completly.

[nickagneta]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

you really think 8 minutes in a first half is a significant chunk when the other 12 come in the 4th quarter when your up 20+?

I disagree completly.

LOL. I guess only BBall can't see that makes zero sense.

[BballTim]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

you really think 8 minutes in a first half is a significant chunk when the other 12 come in the 4th quarter when your up 20+?

I disagree completly.

  I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half of those games. From the games I checked he played 40% of his minutes in the first half. If you want to completely disagree that 40% of something is a significant chunk of it then go for it. It's a subjective word and I'm not going to argue it's meaning.

[BballTim]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

you really think 8 minutes in a first half is a significant chunk when the other 12 come in the 4th quarter when your up 20+?

I disagree completly.

LOL. I guess only BBall can't see that makes zero sense.

  Kind of ironic,since I had no trouble noticing that most of your points made zero sense.

[nickagneta]

Oh and just so others can get this jist of what is going on:

I claimed if Tony played 20-25 minutes we'd lose.

BBall claimed that my claim has no credence because the C's were 18-3 in the regular season when Tony plays 20+

I claimed that is meaningless because most of Tony's minutes in those games came late in the third and the entire fourth quarter when the game was out of hand. I said Tony just wasn't good enough to be trusted with playoff minutes and that's why Doc hasn't been playing him these past 2 years in the playoffs.

BBall then claimed that was because Doc shortened his rotation and because Tony just got finished being off an injury. Take that for what it is worth but I think we all know what it implies only BBall doesn't seem to.

I then countered that Doc used several players in his playoff rotations and none of those players were Tony because he just isn't good enough and countered that Tony is 100% now so coming off the injury is nonsense.

Bball returned to his claim that Tony played most of his time in those 20+ minute games in the first half when the game wa on the line and after researching it I found that allegation to be utterly false and he confirmed it by stating that playing 8 minutes out of 20+ in the first half and the rest in garbage actually confirmed his statement and not mine. I think we all know that's crazy.

There, now everyone is caught up and doesn't have to read the past three pages of this ridiculous discussion.

[BballTim]

Oh and just so others can get this jist of what is going on:
.
.
.

Bball returned to his claim that Tony played most of his time in those 20+ minute games in the first half when the game wa on the line and after researching it I found that allegation to be utterly false and he confirmed it by stating that playing 8 minutes out of 20+ in the first half and the rest in garbage actually confirmed his statement and not mine. I think we all know that's crazy.

There, now everyone is caught up and doesn't have to read the past three pages of this ridiculous discussion.

  Par for the course, Nick. Here's what I said:

  "In the games that Tony Allen got more than 20 minutes he generally got a significant chunk of those minutes in the first half when the games were still competitive."

  Here's an attempt of mine to correct your misconception that I was saying that TA played most of his minutes in the first half:

  "And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct."

  Here's my comment while I again tried to explain this to you:

  "You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response."

  Here's Nick trying his best to summarize the discussion:

  "Bball returned to his claim that Tony played most of his time in those 20+ minute games in the first half when the game wa on the line and after researching it I found that allegation to be utterly false and he confirmed it by stating that playing 8 minutes out of 20+ in the first half".

  All in all, you did a good job of summarizing what was going on in the discussion. Anyone who can follow the post I just made can see what was going on. All things considered, you did a fine job of refuting the point that TA played most of his minutes in the first half of those games, the fact that I never made the point you refuted notwithstanding.

[BillfromBoston]

Tony Allen is a solid defensive player who has occasional scoring outbursts, but is a wildcard overall because of his general inconsistency.

The team got quality minutes out of Allen most of the regular season, he was pretty productive for a 19 mpg player overall.

The benches general inconsistency prior to the Marbury acquisition put undo playmaking responsibility on TA, which increased his offensive inconsistency as well.

As far as the playoffs go, I expect TA to log more minutes going forward - especially as the team's perimeter attack limits the open looks being created for Eddie House.

TA may be somewhat mistake prone, but he's also not getting a ton of usage in the offense and is substantially more effective in transition, which is a style this team is favoring right now.

As long as TA isn't doing a helluva lot of ballhandling, I am good with what he does on the court.

The team has been looking to upgrade that position for a while - they did so last year but weren't willing to spend big money for the available players in last year's FA pool - something many on this board still can't wrap their heads around.

TA can give effective minutes and his errors can be limited - he isn't a 20-25 mpg player unless his early play trends toward that being a possibility - something that TA often shows in his first stint on the floor.

Doc is using Scal/TA/House/Marbury off the bench, with the two wings being situational right now. Doc has to do a better job of trusting the bench for more than 6-8 minutes and the players have to respond by playing confident bball - that all starts with Marbury offensively, the other 3 can fall in behind that.

Bottom line - 20 page threads on TA are silly...he's got value, but  he isn't important enough to discuss this much...

[crownsy]

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

  I looked at the first three wins that TA played 20+ minutes in (all double digit wins). His first halves were 10 minutes (+5), 9 minutes (+5), and 13 minutes (+17). So he played a decent amount of minutes in the first half of all three games and we did well with him in the game all three times. I'm not going to waste my time checking further, since I suspect you're making up your arguments as you go along. But if you're really interested that still leaves you with about 15 wins (14 by your count) to check if you feel that those games were flukes and Doc mainly plays subs in the 4th quarter. And, just for the record, I didn't say that he played his minutes mostly in the first half. I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half, and from the little checking I did it would appear that I was correct.

Actually you weren't correct. As usual.

I did check. In most games that Tony Allen played over 20 minutes, most games he was receiving the majority of his minutes in the second half by playing the end of the third quarter and all of the fourth and in a large majority of those games, he stayed in for the entire fourth quarter because the game was out of hand.

  Too funny. Since you can't admit when you're wrong I wasted some more of my time and checked all of the wins where he played 20+ minutes through the end of December, which was 14 games. He played at least 8 minutes in the first half of all but 1 game. Over those 14 games he played about 40% of his minutes in the first half, which is a significant chunk. I was correct. You didn't see that because you're showing that he played the majority of his minutes in the second half. I never said that he played a majority of his minutes in the first half. In fact I corrected that mischaracterization in my previous post which you quoted in your response.

Maybe next time you should check further than three games. Also next time maybe you should reveal all the facts like in those games you mentioned the amount of time Tony played in the second half and the score at the time. If those were the first three games of the year that Tony played 20+ in and the Celtics won, maybe the good people here would like to know that he did play the majority of his minutes in those games in meaningless time in the second half.

  Maybe you should figure out what you're looking for before you check any games. Maybe if most of those points affected my argument one way or the other I would have mentioned them.

Also, nice cherry picking of data. Tony was playing well the first six games of the year and was an integral part of Docs lineup. When he came back down to Tonyland, He saw more and more mop up time as most of the rest of his 20+ minutes games will attest to.

  Seeing that his first half minutes in the next 11 20+ minute wins average out to be about 1 minute less than the average of his first three games I'll assume that you have no more knowledge about what happened during the first half of the season than you seem to know about what happened during last year's playoffs.

I'm not going to argue this any further as you obviously, as usual, just like to argue points without ever stating you might be wrong about something.

  Show me where, in this discussion, you stated that you might be wrong. Your original thought, that if TA plays 20-25 minutes we'll lose was and is completely unsupported and clearly goes against past performance. The current discussion centers around your claim that the only reason TA doesn't get playoff minutes is because Doc doesn't trust him. DO you have any quotes or any proof at all? Of course not. Do you admit that you might be wrong? Of course not.

The fact remains that Tony has never been given time in the playoffs by Doc because Doc doesn't trust him and not because of some hairbrain excuses that Doc was shortening his rotation or because Tony isn't physically ready yet. He doesn't play because he isn't good enough and Doc doesn't trust him in important games. That's soooooooo easy for everyone else to see, why you can't is beyond me.

  It's a hairbrain excuse that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs? Are you serious? You might be the only person I know of who didn't notice this.

you really think 8 minutes in a first half is a significant chunk when the other 12 come in the 4th quarter when your up 20+?

I disagree completly.

  I said that he played a significant chunk of his minutes in the first half of those games. From the games I checked he played 40% of his minutes in the first half. If you want to completely disagree that 40% of something is a significant chunk of it then go for it. It's a subjective word and I'm not going to argue it's meaning.

I love when people act like percentages always prove something.

Lets say he plays 4 minutes a game total, if he plays 75% of his minutes in the first half, does that mean he made a huge contribution?

12 blowout minutes in the 4th would also seem to indicate the score was probley wider in the first half as well. 40% is a ncie number, but it means 60% of his time was crap. you can screw with percentages to make his 8 minutes sound super important all you want, you still haven't addressed why he can't get consistant miutes when he's healthy (I.E games where he plays 10-20 minutes without 60%   of them coming in an already decided game) If he's such a key role player.

[jchen1731]

The bottom line is...
Tony Allen just doesn't play well off the bench. It's been quite obvious he always played well when he starts the game.

I am not saying we should start him, but some people just don't play well off the bench and tony is one of them.

[guava_wrench]

The bottom line is...
Tony Allen just doesn't play well off the bench. It's been quite obvious he always played well when he starts the game.

I am not saying we should start him, but some people just don't play well off the bench and tony is one of them.

I guess he comes from the AI school of basketball.