Tony Allen

[nickagneta]

What I love about Tony supporters is that they have more confidence in the guy than his own coaching staff. Doc has played the guy more than 10 minutes in exactly 3 of the 29 playoff games that the Celtics have played in over the last two seasons. Many are calling for Tony to play 20-25 MPG yet his own coaching staff thinks that is not the way to win in the playoffs as he has played that much in the playoffs 3 times in his entire career and even then in those games he scored a total of 11 points.

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

You people trust Tony more than his superiors who's job it is to evaluate Tony and his ability to help the Celtics win during the playoffs. Doesn't that tell you anything? Play Tony about 10 minutes. 6 in the first half and 4 in the second with none of that time being in the final 8 minutes of the game. That should be his role and that is how he should be used because as many have pointed out, he is all we have so max his usefulness by playing this way and on most nights his mistakes probably won't outweigh his contributions because he won't be in a position where one of his dumb mistakes would cost us a win.

[CDawg834]

As I've said before, Tony's problem is that he's simply not intelligent enough to leave on the floor for more than two or three possessions. The longer you leave him on the floor, the more the odds of a catastrophic mental mistake go up.

Sad, really, because if he could think the game at all, he'd be a useful player. He might then approximate the ability of the guy I kept calling for tonight. But basketball-wise, he's Gerald Green-style dumb and you can't fix stupid.

He's got to go in the off-season.

I agree that Tony is not the answer in the role he is asked to play.  However, I take a gentler view regarding his basketball intelligence.  I actually think that it is inconsistency rather stupidity.  If you watch TA over the course of a game, he can actually show a reasonably high level of court awareness at times -- and will often make the correct pass -- sometimes very intelligent passes.  Unfortunately, lapses (perhaps in his focus or related to over-exhuberance -- or over-focus) cause him to intersperse bad plays amongst the decent plays.  Overall, this makes him a less than valuable player who teases us with the value he could provide if he were more consistent.  I like Tony's attitude on the bench -- he seems like a young man who wants to do right, but gets himself into bad situations by making ill-advised decisions. I'm not attmeping to mitigate his responsibility for his actions, but just looking at the metaphor of life decisions and basketball decisions.  It's not impossible for him to improve in this area -- brain research lends some support for guys still developing brain capacity in certain areas of the brain past age 25.  

It definitely is possible, but he has been around for a few seasons now, and isn't showing any signs of "getting it" from a mental standpoint.  Can't fault his effort whatsoever, but that can only take him so far, as shown by his disappointing time here.  If he can't learn from a championship team w/ potentially 3 future Hall of Famers, who can he learn from?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I liked what Tony did overall defensively out there. Now you can see why players can't guard Gordon closely, he has an uncanny ability to throw his body around to create contact.

Tony did foul Gordon in the 3 point line, right after he had forced him out of bounce, and to me it looked like Tony jumped straight up and Gordon was on top of Tony, so the foul was inevitable. So what would've been a great defensive play (and was) turned to another "dumb" play by Tony. Plenty of people have fouled 3point shooters in this series, to solely focus on this Tony transgression when in truth it was a great defensive play.

What I like most of what Tony is doing out there defensively, is that he recovers well. If Gordon blows by Tony, after 1 or 2 dribbles, Tony is right back contesting the shot... but Gordon is simply making some unreal shots.

What I would do though, when Tony is in there, I would put him on either Rose and Hinrich, and put Rondo or whomever is out there on Gordon.

I'll say this though, if the team is not moving the ball as it should (and it hasn't done this pretty much the whole series), then House is useless out there as he can't guard ANYONE from the Bulls. Don't insert him any more in this series.

[BballTim]

You haters are going to hate and there is nothing I can do about it.

But I remember similar threads involving Delonte West, with the haters saying that he'll never succeed, can't go to his right, undersized, would not even be on the roster of a good team, blah blah blah.

So now he's starting on one of the two best teams in the league and playing outstanding ball.  Shows you how much those haters knew.

  You have to admit, though, when he was on the Celts he couldn't go to his right.

Sometimes it is better to concentrate on what players can do rather than fixate on what they can't do.

  Sometimes it's also better to realize that players improve as they age. If West played for us like he plays now he'd have had more supporters.

[guava_wrench]

What I love about Tony supporters is that they have more confidence in the guy than his own coaching staff. Doc has played the guy more than 10 minutes in exactly 3 of the 29 playoff games that the Celtics have played in over the last two seasons. Many are calling for Tony to play 20-25 MPG yet his own coaching staff thinks that is not the way to win in the playoffs as he has played that much in the playoffs 3 times in his entire career and even then in those games he scored a total of 11 points.

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

You people trust Tony more than his superiors who's job it is to evaluate Tony and his ability to help the Celtics win during the playoffs. Doesn't that tell you anything? Play Tony about 10 minutes. 6 in the first half and 4 in the second with none of that time being in the final 8 minutes of the game. That should be his role and that is how he should be used because as many have pointed out, he is all we have so max his usefulness by playing this way and on most nights his mistakes probably won't outweigh his contributions because he won't be in a position where one of his dumb mistakes would cost us a win.

I also don't get the comparisons to West. West always got minutes with us. He either started or was the sixth man.

[BballTim]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had somethingto do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

[nickagneta]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

  Seems pretty reasonable, since we're 18-3 this year with Tony playing 20+ minutes.

Under that reasoning we should surely then play J R Giddens some minutes because whenever he played the Celtics were 3-0.

Under that reasoning we should play Bill Walker 10 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 9-2.

Under that reasoning we should play Mikki Moore 17 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 11-4.

Please, your stat is meaningless in the context provided. I could provide stats showing that Marbury, House, Tony, Davis and Moore are a better functioning 5 man unit than our normal or current starting five. Does that mean Doc should start and play that combo extensive minutes rather than Ray, Paul, Perk, Rondo, and Davis?

  Sure, Nick. If you can't figure out the difference between the minutes TA (who was leading the bench in minutes and averaging almost 20 a game until he was injured) and rookies who played mainly in blowouts than I can see why you would think it was meaningless. I'm guessing the reasoning behind your original statement based on something much more meaningful than actual results from actual games, right?

What exactly is the difference between the minutes Tony plays in and the minutes those others play in? Enlighten me because last I checked in those 17 wins(yes it was 17 not 18) this year where Tony played more than 20 minutes the average margin of victory was 17.7 PPG. Only one of those wins was by less than 8 points and only 4 less than 12.

Maybe next time you should check the facts when discussing when Tony plays big minutes versus when those players I quoted play the minutes I quoted them as playing.

You might also want to look into the 26-10 record the Celtics had without Tony in the lineup which shows that the Celtics pretty much had the exact same winning percentage this year whether Tony was playing or not. I think that's telling in regards as to just how important any minutes Tony gives this team as he apparently can be replaced without a fall off of the play of the team.

[nickagneta]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had somethingto do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

You really believe that do you? Okay, that obviously points out that you really aren't paying attention.

Last year Doc shortened his rotation so much that Posey, House, Casell, Baby, and Powe received significant playing time at times during the playoffs. What did Doc do, shorten his playoff rotation down to only 10 players instead of playing every player on the bench?

And Tony has been back from injury and proved physically he is fine because he played two games in a row at the end of the season with over 30 minutes per game.

[2short]

Tony proved last night that he can help us and hurt us evenly!  The foul on 3 pt shot by Gordon would be a video addition to his game for any gm interested. 
But no matter what he , scal or walker should be getting 10 minutes a night!!  Pierce is getting run into the ground in the first round
I think doc did a great job this year but he's looking like kc right now.  Eddie isn't getting any time and steph is not doing it for me.  When eddie is hitting his shots he's as good as ANY 3pt shooter in league.  He & Ray are very important to team for spreading floor leaving driving lanes for rondo and pierce.
If tony would stop getting hurt I'm sure the c's would get him some pt during regular season to make him interesting to another team.  At this point he's cheap and near unmovable.  Obviously walker is a step up at sf for next year compared to ta but we should also be looking at grant hill or another vet for backup spot for pierce.
I like tonys defensive work but...
tony allen = 

[BballTim]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

  Seems pretty reasonable, since we're 18-3 this year with Tony playing 20+ minutes.

Under that reasoning we should surely then play J R Giddens some minutes because whenever he played the Celtics were 3-0.

Under that reasoning we should play Bill Walker 10 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 9-2.

Under that reasoning we should play Mikki Moore 17 or more minutes because whenever we do we are 11-4.

Please, your stat is meaningless in the context provided. I could provide stats showing that Marbury, House, Tony, Davis and Moore are a better functioning 5 man unit than our normal or current starting five. Does that mean Doc should start and play that combo extensive minutes rather than Ray, Paul, Perk, Rondo, and Davis?

  Sure, Nick. If you can't figure out the difference between the minutes TA (who was leading the bench in minutes and averaging almost 20 a game until he was injured) and rookies who played mainly in blowouts than I can see why you would think it was meaningless. I'm guessing the reasoning behind your original statement based on something much more meaningful than actual results from actual games, right?

What exactly is the difference between the minutes Tony plays in and the minutes those others play in? Enlighten me because last I checked in those 17 wins(yes it was 17 not 18) this year where Tony played more than 20 minutes the average margin of victory was 17.7 PPG. Only one of those wins was by less than 8 points and only 4 less than 12.

Maybe next time you should check the facts when discussing when Tony plays big minutes versus when those players I quoted play the minutes I quoted them as playing.

You might also want to look into the 26-10 record the Celtics had without Tony in the lineup which shows that the Celtics pretty much had the exact same winning percentage this year whether Tony was playing or not. I think that's telling in regards as to just how important any minutes Tony gives this team as he apparently can be replaced without a fall off of the play of the team.

  What I was saying should have been pretty obvious. In the games that Tony Allen got more than 20 minutes he generally got a significant chunk of those minutes in the first half when the games were still competitive. Most of the games that Giddens played in or Walker played a lot of minutes were after we had big leads or deficits.

  I still count 18 wins where TA plays 20 or more minutes, not that it matters. The fact that we won big in many of those games doesn't do much to support your proclamation that TA playing 20-25 minutes means an automatic loss. Also, try and keep up with the discussion. I never said that TA can't be replaced or we can't win without him. I just pointed out that his playing 20+ minutes doesn't exactly guarantee a loss.

[ScoobyDoo]

I can understand not wanting Tony in down the stretch, I have my reservations as well on that. Ideally you watn Ray.

but to counter the speed and quickness that is causign us to get our butts handed to us, I want to use what we have in Tony. And if it's all before the 4th, so be it. Get him 15-20 minutes, rest Pierce and Ray for 10 minutes each, they'll be fresh to carry us down the stretch.

TA can defiantely check Salmons and Gordon for 10 minutes each. 

[BballTim]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had something to do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

You really believe that do you? Okay, that obviously points out that you really aren't paying attention.

Last year Doc shortened his rotation so much that Posey, House, Casell, Baby, and Powe received significant playing time at times during the playoffs. What did Doc do, shorten his playoff rotation down to only 10 players instead of playing every player on the bench?

And Tony has been back from injury and proved physically he is fine because he played two games in a row at the end of the season with over 30 minutes per game.

  Yes, different people received significant playing time AT TIMES during the playoffs. Doc mainly played a 3 man bench with a big (sometimes 2, probably depending on Perk's minutes), a wing and a pg. He started playing only Sam, then when Sam sucked he went with Eddie. He switched back to Sam and then he switched back to Eddie. He didn't (unless he did for injury) give both of them significant time in the same game. Since Posey never played as badly as the bench players who were shuffled out of the rotation we never saw much of Tony.

  How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I wasn't paying attention? Is it not true that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs, using Posey as his backup wing? Is it not true that Tony just came back from being injured for 2 months? Or is it just because I was unable to read Doc's mind to find out that the only reason that TA didn't play much is because Doc doesn't trust him? I mean, the signs are all there, right? He came back and played big minutes in the last 2 games, probably with most of the starters out of the lineup. Clearly that's more than enough time to integrate him back into the lineup.

[nickagneta]

Tony is a decent guy to play during the regular season to help reduce the wear and tear on your starters because he will do well about half the time and on most nights the team is going to win whether Tony plays or not. But during the playoffs versus good teams he has almost never been trusted with extensive minutes because his mental miscues will cost the team wins and his coaches know that. That is why two seasons in a row his minutes were slashed during the playoffs.

  Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the mistaken impression that Doc shortening the rotation and going with Posey as his backup wing, or the fact that he's just coming back from being injured for 2 months might have had something to do with it. Obviously that's not the case.

  But how many people are calling for TA to get 20-25 minutes a game? Is it more than the number of people who wanted Starbury to get that many minutes? More than the number of people that wanted House to get all of the backup minutes because he's our most reliable bench player?

You really believe that do you? Okay, that obviously points out that you really aren't paying attention.

Last year Doc shortened his rotation so much that Posey, House, Casell, Baby, and Powe received significant playing time at times during the playoffs. What did Doc do, shorten his playoff rotation down to only 10 players instead of playing every player on the bench?

And Tony has been back from injury and proved physically he is fine because he played two games in a row at the end of the season with over 30 minutes per game.

  Yes, different people received significant playing time AT TIMES during the playoffs. Doc mainly played a 3 man bench with a big (sometimes 2, probably depending on Perk's minutes), a wing and a pg. He started playing only Sam, then when Sam sucked he went with Eddie. He switched back to Sam and then he switched back to Eddie. He didn't (unless he did for injury) give both of them significant time in the same game. Since Posey never played as badly as the bench players who were shuffled out of the rotation we never saw much of Tony.

  How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I wasn't paying attention? Is it not true that Doc shortened his rotation during the playoffs, using Posey as his backup wing? Is it not true that Tony just came back from being injured for 2 months? Or is it just because I was unable to read Doc's mind to find out that the only reason that TA didn't play much is because Doc doesn't trust him? I mean, the signs are all there, right? He came back and played big minutes in the last 2 games, probably with most of the starters out of the lineup. Clearly that's more than enough time to integrate him back into the lineup.

How much more do I have to explain this for you to get it?

Doc shortened his rotation and Tony was never one of the players getting significant minutes? Why? Because Tony wasn't good enough to be trusted with the minutes. Doc went with, over the course of the post season, 10 different players in his rotations. Tony was not one of them, hence he wasn't good enough to trust to be in the rotations? Is that so hard to understand?

As for the "he was just coming back from injury" excuse you used, that excuse implies that Tony isn't healthy enough to play the minutes that you suggest he can be trusted with this year. It implies that Doc isn't using him not because he isn't good enough to trust with minutes but because he isn't healthy enough to play those minutes. So playing back to back games of over 30 minutes per game proves that his injury is no longer an issue and the excuse that "he just came back from injury" makes zero sense.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Also, Tony playing in 18 wins with an average win total of almost 18 points is not proof that he played those minutes mostly in the first half. On the contrary, since he is a bench player, it can be argued that the starters played most if not all of the first and third quarters and the end of the second quarter, which is Doc's norm, and that Tony played a majority of his minutes in fourth quarters of those blowout games that were already decided before the fourth quarter started.

[Spfldkid]

TA covered Gordon better than anyone else did this series, and we can't have Ray Allen covering him, Gordon is now a master at drawing fouls...and hitting crazy shots consistantly, we cannot have Ray foul out, or work that hard on D, especially without KG or Leon....! Tony did very good.....Chances are that Gordon would have made that shot..he has done it so far.....

[EJPLAYA]

TA covered Gordon better than anyone else did this series, and we can't have Ray Allen covering him, Gordon is now a master at drawing fouls...and hitting crazy shots consistantly, we cannot have Ray foul out, or work that hard on D, especially without KG or Leon....! Tony did very good.....Chances are that Gordon would have made that shot..he has done it so far.....

Yeah. The chances were 41% from the three point line overall, so his contested three point percentage is certainly less. 86% from the free throw line...

You're dead on. Fouling him and putting him at the line was the SMART thing for TA to do... The guy is a GENIUS!

37 total minutes in 4 games don't quite qualify the guy for getting the "Ben Gordon cover guy of the series". How about the 35% he shot in game 1 and the 38% he shot in game 3. TA only played 8 and 9 minutes those two games. Hardly a glowing endorsement from Doc. He was obviously content keeping the defensive wonder on the pine until he had no choice with Ray going out. His actions speak a lot louder than his words.