Mikki Moore is the worst defensive big man in the NBA (vent thread)

[hardlyyardley]

immaterial!!!

if scal is healthy, mikki will join giddens and pruitt in street clothes for the playoffs

[winsomme]

BBall, if Mikki was just supposed to be roster filler, then what was the big risk in not signing him?

 Maybe they wanted more depth? Are you saying they should have just not signed anyone? Or that we should have passed on him and waited for Smith to get bought out and still watch him sign with the Cavs? What exactly is the value in not signing him?

Look, I'm not getting back into the whole "Smith would only have signed with the Cavs" debate. It goes nowhere. but he wasn't the only option...Gooden also came available as did Stromile. It wasn't necessarily Smith or nuthin'...

I think it's kinda strange that you thought there was a need at backup PG even though we had the two players from last years team already on the roster, but don't seem to think there was a need at backup C..

Anyway, I hope you're right about Baby because he has a big job on his shoulders with no real alternative.

  You don't seem to have any concept of the fact that even if we had the same roster as last year we aren't the exact same team. Rondo's better, Perk's better, Davis is better and Cassell and PJ, if they came back, would be a year older and most likely worse than they were last year. Doc switched back and forth between Eddie and Sam last year because neither of them nailed down the job, Eddie has been playing more like a sg all year and Sam would be even slower than he was last year (how many teams tried to sign him this year?) yet you think that we don't our needs don't shift when player's roles and skill levels change.

As specifically for Baby (since that is the position we are talking about), the question isn't is he better, the question is "is he enough better?"

PJ played something like 14 MPG, so all the improvements and changes in PT that you mentioned aside, the role of replacing PJ from last season is essentially the same.

  Your statement is that aside from the changes in playing time, the role is the same? What does that even mean?

It means that the role of backup C is still looking to be around 15 MPG. Same as it was last year.

  In that case the role of whoever we signed to "replace PJ" will have his minutes reduced unless Davis only averages about a minute a game. Is that the scenario that you're pushing?

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

[BballTim]

BBall, if Mikki was just supposed to be roster filler, then what was the big risk in not signing him?

 Maybe they wanted more depth? Are you saying they should have just not signed anyone? Or that we should have passed on him and waited for Smith to get bought out and still watch him sign with the Cavs? What exactly is the value in not signing him?

Look, I'm not getting back into the whole "Smith would only have signed with the Cavs" debate. It goes nowhere. but he wasn't the only option...Gooden also came available as did Stromile. It wasn't necessarily Smith or nuthin'...

I think it's kinda strange that you thought there was a need at backup PG even though we had the two players from last years team already on the roster, but don't seem to think there was a need at backup C..

Anyway, I hope you're right about Baby because he has a big job on his shoulders with no real alternative.

  You don't seem to have any concept of the fact that even if we had the same roster as last year we aren't the exact same team. Rondo's better, Perk's better, Davis is better and Cassell and PJ, if they came back, would be a year older and most likely worse than they were last year. Doc switched back and forth between Eddie and Sam last year because neither of them nailed down the job, Eddie has been playing more like a sg all year and Sam would be even slower than he was last year (how many teams tried to sign him this year?) yet you think that we don't our needs don't shift when player's roles and skill levels change.

As specifically for Baby (since that is the position we are talking about), the question isn't is he better, the question is "is he enough better?"

PJ played something like 14 MPG, so all the improvements and changes in PT that you mentioned aside, the role of replacing PJ from last season is essentially the same.

  Your statement is that aside from the changes in playing time, the role is the same? What does that even mean?

It means that the role of backup C is still looking to be around 15 MPG. Same as it was last year.

  In that case the role of whoever we signed to "replace PJ" will have his minutes reduced unless Davis only averages about a minute a game. Is that the scenario that you're pushing?

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

[winsomme]

BBall, if Mikki was just supposed to be roster filler, then what was the big risk in not signing him?

 Maybe they wanted more depth? Are you saying they should have just not signed anyone? Or that we should have passed on him and waited for Smith to get bought out and still watch him sign with the Cavs? What exactly is the value in not signing him?

Look, I'm not getting back into the whole "Smith would only have signed with the Cavs" debate. It goes nowhere. but he wasn't the only option...Gooden also came available as did Stromile. It wasn't necessarily Smith or nuthin'...

I think it's kinda strange that you thought there was a need at backup PG even though we had the two players from last years team already on the roster, but don't seem to think there was a need at backup C..

Anyway, I hope you're right about Baby because he has a big job on his shoulders with no real alternative.

  You don't seem to have any concept of the fact that even if we had the same roster as last year we aren't the exact same team. Rondo's better, Perk's better, Davis is better and Cassell and PJ, if they came back, would be a year older and most likely worse than they were last year. Doc switched back and forth between Eddie and Sam last year because neither of them nailed down the job, Eddie has been playing more like a sg all year and Sam would be even slower than he was last year (how many teams tried to sign him this year?) yet you think that we don't our needs don't shift when player's roles and skill levels change.

As specifically for Baby (since that is the position we are talking about), the question isn't is he better, the question is "is he enough better?"

PJ played something like 14 MPG, so all the improvements and changes in PT that you mentioned aside, the role of replacing PJ from last season is essentially the same.

  Your statement is that aside from the changes in playing time, the role is the same? What does that even mean?

It means that the role of backup C is still looking to be around 15 MPG. Same as it was last year.

  In that case the role of whoever we signed to "replace PJ" will have his minutes reduced unless Davis only averages about a minute a game. Is that the scenario that you're pushing?

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

what i think is that they wanted to bring in a guy to legitimately battle for those minutes...

and remember, KG played more minutes at C last year also....

Last year down the stretch there was battle for the backup C minutes. This year it is essentially on Baby's shoulders.

[BballTim]

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

what i think is that they wanted to bring in a guy to legitimately battle for those minutes...

and remember, KG played more minutes at C last year also....

Last year down the stretch there was battle for the backup C minutes. This year it is essentially on Baby's shoulders.

  Of course they wanted to bring in the best player that they could get. Who wouldn't?

  Last year they had a void at backup C until they signed PJ. This year Perk is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. Davis is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. To me, that would indicate that they are a lot less desperate for someone to come in and play a big role in the playoffs than they were a year ago. I don't see why you disagree with this. If we'd started the playoffs last year with this year's versions of Perk and Davis then PJ would have played fewer minutes.

[winsomme]

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

what i think is that they wanted to bring in a guy to legitimately battle for those minutes...

and remember, KG played more minutes at C last year also....

Last year down the stretch there was battle for the backup C minutes. This year it is essentially on Baby's shoulders.

  Of course they wanted to bring in the best player that they could get. Who wouldn't?

  Last year they had a void at backup C until they signed PJ. This year Perk is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. Davis is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. To me, that would indicate that they are a lot less desperate for someone to come in and play a big role in the playoffs than they were a year ago. I don't see why you disagree with this. If we'd started the playoffs last year with this year's versions of Perk and Davis then PJ would have played fewer minutes.

again, i think the relative need between last year and this year is pretty much the same.

Perk is better and will get more minutes this year, but like i said, KG got more minutes at C last year.

They did have a backup C last year. It was Baby. Just like it is this year. They brought PJ in, they battled it out and PJ got the minutes.

This year there is no battle for the minutes. So now the only question is "Is Baby enough better?"

because there really is no alternative at this point.

[BballTim]

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

what i think is that they wanted to bring in a guy to legitimately battle for those minutes...

and remember, KG played more minutes at C last year also....

Last year down the stretch there was battle for the backup C minutes. This year it is essentially on Baby's shoulders.

  Of course they wanted to bring in the best player that they could get. Who wouldn't?

  Last year they had a void at backup C until they signed PJ. This year Perk is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. Davis is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. To me, that would indicate that they are a lot less desperate for someone to come in and play a big role in the playoffs than they were a year ago. I don't see why you disagree with this. If we'd started the playoffs last year with this year's versions of Perk and Davis then PJ would have played fewer minutes.

again, i think the relative need between last year and this year is pretty much the same.

Perk is better and will get more minutes this year, but like i said, KG got more minutes at C last year.

They did have a backup C last year. It was Baby. Just like it is this year. They brought PJ in, they battled it out and PJ got the minutes.

This year there is no battle for the minutes. So now the only question is "Is Baby enough better?"

because there really is no alternative at this point.

  Who's to say KG won't get 5-8 minutes a game at backup C this year, especially if Powe is healthy?

[Edgar]

immaterial!!!

if scal is healthy, mikki will join giddens and pruitt in street clothes for the playoffs

scal will NOT be in game shape ( lol..like if he ever was)
even if hes healthy

[cordobes]

If we had missed Moore, we could have signed Gooden, Smith, Pops Mensah-Bonsu, Stromile Swift, Foyle, etc, etc. Moore is not significantly better than the worst of those guys. However, this is all a consequence of not signing someone serviceable like Skinner or Elson in the pre-season, entering the season with a roster full of interrogation points - with the hope that a better player would be available in March. Although some seem to be unable to understand the difference between "needless risk" and "inability to fight for a title", I hope Ainge does a more cautious job next off-season.

[cordobes]

pass, he cant even find the floor for a terrible tornto team.

now, if we had the way back machine, i pick

Well, I pass him too. I used the picture to prove that Moore is very, very far away from being the worst defensive big in the NBA.

[cordobes]

I'll never get EJ Playa reasoning about how one should set the expectations, and therefore the validity of criticism, for bench players.

On the one hand, it's fair game to criticize BBD because he's supposed to be a contributor and a rotation player. On the other hand, his reaction to Moore is exactly the same he had on every single thread where POB was criticized (with the exception that he guaranteed that POB was a 2 years project and that would be here next season  ).

However, BBD is the 2nd rounder sophomore. POB was the lottery pick in his 3rd season and Moore a veteran who started for playoff teams. Plus, Davis makes the less money of the 3.

It's puzzling.

[winsomme]

who got the majority of PJs minutes last year before we signed him? It was Baby, was it not....

  Fine. If you think that the Celts had no intention of giving Davis any minutes in the postseason this year then I'll disagree but there's no point in arguing about it.

what i think is that they wanted to bring in a guy to legitimately battle for those minutes...

and remember, KG played more minutes at C last year also....

Last year down the stretch there was battle for the backup C minutes. This year it is essentially on Baby's shoulders.

  Of course they wanted to bring in the best player that they could get. Who wouldn't?

  Last year they had a void at backup C until they signed PJ. This year Perk is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. Davis is playing better and should play more minutes in the playoffs. To me, that would indicate that they are a lot less desperate for someone to come in and play a big role in the playoffs than they were a year ago. I don't see why you disagree with this. If we'd started the playoffs last year with this year's versions of Perk and Davis then PJ would have played fewer minutes.

again, i think the relative need between last year and this year is pretty much the same.

Perk is better and will get more minutes this year, but like i said, KG got more minutes at C last year.

They did have a backup C last year. It was Baby. Just like it is this year. They brought PJ in, they battled it out and PJ got the minutes.

This year there is no battle for the minutes. So now the only question is "Is Baby enough better?"

because there really is no alternative at this point.

  Who's to say KG won't get 5-8 minutes a game at backup C this year, especially if Powe is healthy?

Sure, it's possible, but again, any way you slice it, the backup C position is going to be checking in at around 15 MPG which is exactly what PJ gave us last year....

Leon could get more minutes than last season, but we also lost Posey too...

By the way, PJ wasn't handed the minutes last season. he was given an opportunity to compete with Baby for the minutes.

but now, we don't have much of a backup plan if the match up doesn't work to our advantage with Baby.

what we need to happen now is for Leon and Baby to lock their spots so Mikki can settle into a niche role and not be asked to do more than he is really ready for...

[EJPLAYA]

I'll never get EJ Playa reasoning about how one should set the expectations, and therefore the validity of criticism, for bench players.

On the one hand, it's fair game to criticize BBD because he's supposed to be a contributor and a rotation player. On the other hand, his reaction to Moore is exactly the same he had on every single thread where POB was criticized (with the exception that he guaranteed that POB was a 2 years project and that would be here next season  ).

However, BBD is the 2nd rounder sophomore. POB was the lottery pick in his 3rd season and Moore a veteran who started for playoff teams. Plus, Davis is the most underpaid of the 3.

It's puzzling.

Funny how there have been tons of comments since I posted last in here and you single me out cordobes...

Let me try to explain it to you. In the offseason we made attempts to upgrade the backup center spot since BBD had basically gotten himself pushed to the bench and Ainge knew that PJ was likely going to stay retired. There was no one that he liked as an upgrade, so he decided to take a project in POB that may or may not pan out. Obviously they felt it wasn't going to.

With BBD stepping it up and Powe also being able to contribute, they felt that they could either sign a vet that would give them something like Zo, or Mutombo, or Joe Smith and battle BBD getting backup minutes. When none of those panned out they decided to sign instead a backup to the backup who had a few skills they could use if BBD didn't continue to progress. They did not ever intend Mikki to get 17 minutes a game, and you know this because Perk is going to get more minutes, BBD is getting more minutes, as well as Powe. Where do you think Mikki's minutes are going to come from?! He will get a few here and there when they are in foul trouble, and if he is playing well or there is a specific need then he will stay a little longer.

How hard is that to understand? I don't think ripping a 11th man that is doing exactly what he was thought to provide is very useful. Especially when he is providing the same stats as PJ, and what he can't provide in physical play like PJ did he provides in heart and energy.

[CoachBo]

If we had missed Moore, we could have signed Gooden, Smith, Pops Mensah-Bonsu, Stromile Swift, Foyle, etc, etc. Moore is not significantly better than the worst of those guys. However, this is all a consequence of not signing someone serviceable like Skinner or Elson in the pre-season, entering the season with a roster full of interrogation points - with the hope that a better player would be available in March. Although some seem to be unable to understand the difference between "needless risk" and "inability to fight for a title", I hope Ainge does a more cautious job next off-season.

I, too, hope Ainge does a more thoughtful, informed job of assembling a bench next summer, not just a collection of "11th men" and gambles who everyone in and around the league except Danny know can't play.

[cordobes]

I'll never get EJ Playa reasoning about how one should set the expectations, and therefore the validity of criticism, for bench players.

On the one hand, it's fair game to criticize BBD because he's supposed to be a contributor and a rotation player. On the other hand, his reaction to Moore is exactly the same he had on every single thread where POB was criticized (with the exception that he guaranteed that POB was a 2 years project and that would be here next season  ).

However, BBD is the 2nd rounder sophomore. POB was the lottery pick in his 3rd season and Moore a veteran who started for playoff teams. Plus, Davis is the most underpaid of the 3.

It's puzzling.

Funny how there have been tons of comments since I posted last in here and you single me out cordobes...

Let me try to explain it to you. In the offseason we made attempts to upgrade the backup center spot since BBD had basically gotten himself pushed to the bench and Ainge knew that PJ was likely going to stay retired. There was no one that he liked as an upgrade, so he decided to take a project in POB that may or may not pan out. Obviously they felt it wasn't going to.

With BBD stepping it up and Powe also being able to contribute, they felt that they could either sign a vet that would give them something like Zo, or Mutombo, or Joe Smith and battle BBD getting backup minutes. When none of those panned out they decided to sign instead a backup to the backup who had a few skills they could use if BBD didn't continue to progress. They did not ever intend Mikki to get 17 minutes a game, and you know this because Perk is going to get more minutes, BBD is getting more minutes, as well as Powe. Where do you think Mikki's minutes are going to come from?! He will get a few here and there when they are in foul trouble, and if he is playing well or there is a specific need then he will stay a little longer.

How hard is that to understand? I don't think ripping a 11th man that is doing exactly what he was thought to provide is very useful. Especially when he is providing the same stats as PJ, and what he can't provide in physical play like PJ did he provides in heart and energy.

You completely miss the point. What's hard to understand is why you are so dismissive of any criticism towards POB and Moore and yet you start threads ripping on Glen Davis. It doesn't make sense whatsoever.

In fact, I'd say that BBD is doing even more than what he was thought to provide. It's the double-standard that puzzles me.