The Tony Allen Bandwagon

[cordobes]

I like Tony Allen. I mean, I guess... I have no idea how are these conversations framed like like/dislike; lovers/haters; etc. That only hurts the chances of a rational debate about basketball; as people get way too emotionally invested with players and they stop seeing evident things they'd otherwise catch.

Tony Allen's biggest problem is not exactly a skill-set issue, strictus sensus. I agree with lots of positive stuff written here. His jumper, ball-handling and court vision are suspect for a NBA guard but one could live with those flaws.

But I'm a big Bobby Knight fan. And Coach Knight, in his videos and books, used to talk about the fundamentals of concentration and of the inflammation of personal expectations. And that's the problem with Tony Allen - those are the factors that lead to his astonishing unreliability. And be sure of one thing: reliability and consistency, from game to game, week to week, month to month, are one of the most important traits of winning basketball.


If Tony Allen could play more focused, smart and not try to do so much, if he was able to play within his role from game to game, I think 2 things would happen:
- he wouldn't have so many passionate fans and a bandwagon (and so many high-quality, high-scoring games on his record).
- he would be a better basketball player, a bigger contributor for team wins.

[KungPoweChicken]

"Say what you have to say, not what you ought.
Any truth is better than make-believe." - Henry David Thoreau

[Big_Matt34]

Back to the point of the thread, enjoy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=puMJxcmqYbg

[Change]

Do you guys think TA will comeback better then ever? I really hope so, but I don't expect it.

[EJPLAYA]

I think what everyone needs to realize, no matter who you like on the bench, is that none of them are all that good, and no one on the bench is going to make us regret trading them. 

The consequences of such a realization are twofold:

1) We need to upgrade the bench pretty badly.

2) Trading any of our "young talent" (which is grossly overrated by some on this board) to acquire better bench players should not be bemoaned.  The chances of anyone on this bench being anything more than a role player is fairly remote and the chances of anyone ever being a star is almost nonexistent. 

True. Which is exactly the reason we haven't made any trades to this point. No one wants anyone on that bench, or at least bad enough to give something back to us of value. If TA was as good as this thread is trying to insinuate, we would have been able to make a deal by now.  There are 4 guys on here that I don't want to see leave. Eddie and Powe. They are dependable and fill a needed role. Then Walker and POB. Walker has glimpses of big potential, and you won't get anything for POB and a 7 footer with that wingspan and offensive ability is more valuable than anything we'd get in return. Take anyone else and get whatever you can for them. No one else is that good. Especially not TA.

Nobody in this thread said TA is anymore than a roleplayer, so thats a baseless comment. Maybe its possible Danny isnt trying to shop TA, thats why he hasnt been dealt, unless you are in on the meeting with Danny then you have no idea.

Eddie and Powe fill roles and are dependable? Eddie the guy who ruins our offensive tempo every game, he is really dependable if you expect him to slow to game down and get abused on defense. TA averages more ppg than House without a 3 point shot, he also shoots 47% from the field. TA has scored in double figures 14 times in 33 games, House has scored in double figures 14 times in 41 games. amd dont even say House brings other things because all he can do is shoot. TA has 3 or more assists 6 times in 33 games, House has 3 or more assists 7 times in 41 games, so House certainly does get more assists and dont even bring defense into it.

Len Powe, the "loveable" hard worker so far this year has been a huge disappointment too, his minutes are up from last year yet his ppg, fg%,Ft% are down while his rebounds are the same in 1 more minute a game. He has scored in double figured 13 times in 42 games while being bad on defense, especially on rotations. He has been just as inconsistent as TA on offense and not even close as good defensively, what is so dependable about him?

So please, tell me what they bring that we need so bad. People are living off of last year with Powe and House, they both have regressed and if we got something of value theyd be gone. Powe has been as good as TA this year, those two are close but House hasnt even been close to as good as TA, this fallacy of those two being so important to us while TA isn't is a joke, much like House and Powe's defense/passing. And POB, lol, the guy over the last few weeks who is averaging 15 fouls per 48 minutes and 9 TO's per 48 playing against scrubs. Nevermind not trading him, he is getting released as soon as the Celts add another player.

It is obvious that you aren't interested in being serious about discussing the facts if you state the only thing that Eddie brings is shooting. Tearing down Eddie and Powe does not make TA look better. You have no legitimate argument as far as TA's worth other than he scores a few points and plays solid defense. I stated the guy is an above average defender, however it is not due to him being a smart defender. Watch the guy play defense. He is not fundamentally sound. Watch Scal and there you will see a very good defender that has NO athletic ability. I still give him the credit though for being above average.

The point is simple. Look at the games that we have not had him and the production of the second unit. There has been no drop off at all. Gabe has filled his role very well, along with contributions from House and Walker and Scal, and all this without the maddening turnovers. You are really reaching to try and say that the guy is a good player.  No one wants the guy or else he would have already been gone in a trade. Inconsistent. That is what TA is. That's why he is as good as he will ever be.

[Big_Matt34]

I was not tearing them down to make TA look better, you said those two are dependable and we need them and i showed why TA has been as important as either of them. Im sure if we had no Powe or House other people would step up and itd be the same thing. Gabe as much as i like him has averaged 3.6 ppg/2 asp/ 1 TO a game on 5-17 shooting over the last 5 games. Walker? Please, the guy has played in 2 games and in non garbage time once so thats a weak example, Scal has been starting so of course he looks better playing with the other starters.

Tell me what House brings other than shooting, he is a subpar ballhandler, passer, and defender, he hits shots and brings some energy but so does every bench player. TA has scores in double figures as much as House and Powe in less games while being at worst an above average defender, He also averages the same assists a game as House even though he isnt the backup pg, so what exactly makes them more dependable than him? Also, are you friends with Danny and have inside access to other GM's, because if not you have NO clue if TA would be traded by now, also show me how he has been more inconsistent than anyone else on the bench, back up your arguement.

[BudweiserCeltic]

EJ, the production comparisons are really of little consequence at the moment. For all we know, the production has been because House is no longer our PG, and for all we know TA playing alongside Gabe would be even more productive than Gabe with House.

Let's forget about Perk while we're at it. Our starters haven't missed him at all with Scal in there.

[Andy Jick]

looks like the wagon is a few players short of an orchestra...

[2short]

If Tony was 6'7" I think we would all have different ideas and be able to overlook ball handling and turnovers.  Pruitt is the same height I believe, better ball handler range and defender.  Eddie really does make things happen on the defensive end mainly through busting his ass, and has a very good outside shot.  Ray obviously is ray, so to me that is 3 players who can play sg (not even counting Pierce).  Tony is a sg who can give us some minutes at sf.  He really has no time spot with pruitts play.  So an undersized sf....we have PP, scal at times and honestly bill walker ready for 5-10 minutes against ANY competition.  Put him in for PP against the other teams starters but with rondo, garnett etc.  The kid can play.
thanks Tony but put him in a trade to get smith or another c/pf which is what we need.

[ACF]

[EJPLAYA]

I was not tearing them down to make TA look better, you said those two are dependable and we need them and i showed why TA has been as important as either of them. Im sure if we had no Powe or House other people would step up and itd be the same thing. Gabe as much as i like him has averaged 3.6 ppg/2 asp/ 1 TO a game on 5-17 shooting over the last 5 games. Walker? Please, the guy has played in 2 games and in non garbage time once so thats a weak example, Scal has been starting so of course he looks better playing with the other starters.

Tell me what House brings other than shooting, he is a subpar ballhandler, passer, and defender, he hits shots and brings some energy but so does every bench player. TA has scores in double figures as much as House and Powe in less games while being at worst an above average defender, He also averages the same assists a game as House even though he isnt the backup pg, so what exactly makes them more dependable than him? Also, are you friends with Danny and have inside access to other GM's, because if not you have NO clue if TA would be traded by now, also show me how he has been more inconsistent than anyone else on the bench, back up your arguement.

If you think House can't play defense then you really don't understand the game. House is one of the better ball denial defenders there is out there and uses passing lane denial to keep the ball away from his man. No he isn't tall enough to double down on the low post player as effective as some guys, but the guy fights through every screen, flies out on guys shooting from the outside, and most often doesn't even let his guy get the ball in the first place.  It's no wonder you think TA is a great player...

As far as Danny goes, there is no secret that they want to get bigger and tougher at the wing and at the center spot. Wyc stated as much the other night in the broadcast. No way he says that unless he and Danny have had multiple conversations about it. If you think that a GM is content with a shooting guard that is turnover prone on the drive, and can't shoot the ball, then I repeat. You may not understand enough about the game to argue with.

The only people content with TA are in three categories. They don't understand the game, they just want to be contrarian, or they are commenting based on what they hope he COULD become.

[Edgar]

more like

[ACF]

more like

Or maybe:

[Edgar]

[/quote]

man this is a first timer for me
this is perfect for the super off topic thread!!!

[ACF]

man this is a first timer for me
this is perfect for the super off topic thread!!!

That's me, on my way to work.