Posey to the Hornets (Boston Globe Reporting)

[The Walker Wiggle]

It has nothing to do with a 20 year rebuilding project.  It is about a reloading project in 3 years, which is a relevant thing to worry about.

My point was that a three year reload easily turns into a ten year drought...turns into a twenty year disaster. That, and cap space is over-rated. It played little to no role in the construction of any Championship winning team I can think of - dating back to Chicago, except the O'Neal Lakers.

O'Bryant is a useful flyer to take for the minimum salary.  Is he a dropoff from Scot Pollard?

Until Ainge signs another back-up center it's premature to qualify O'Bryant as Scott Pollard's replacement. But otherwise I agree. If can we also agree that he fits LarBrd33's definition of "scraps."

I am intrigued more by Josh Childress though, although that will take time...

The fact that most of the workable replacements being mentioned are pipe dreams is just good evidence that Ainge has made a mistake. I'm willing to wager my Tommy Points that Atlanta won't let Childress walk for an MLE offer.

[winsomme]

winsomme... obviously they aren't going to head into the season without making further signings...

And obviously they had a problem with overpaying Posey when other options were available.

Don't worry about it.  Lets look at this in a few months when we see what we use the MLE on and what we ultimately "traded" Posey for.

i mean, i'm with you mostly.....i just think that some of the reasoning being given here for not giving Posey the 4 years doesn't make sense to me....

like i said in the other thread, at this point, as for filling Posey's role now, i'd rather just let the "youngs" go at it because they're more interesting to me and they have a higher ceiling than what appears to be out there.

but, yeah, let's see what happens. Danny is pretty creative. so i can't see him being willing to put a team out there next season that isn't as potent as last year's.....i just kinda hope that the moves are further down the road than the next couple of days...

[Brendan]

Most of the wailing around here is absed on two assumptions:

1. Posey was indispensable - or close to it - to the 2009 title run.
2. Posey's decline will coincide with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and KG's.
3. No matter what we will be bad in two or three years (or at least in an inevitable decline.)

1. I don't really agree with any of these. Posey's contributions this year were about as good as he gets, I expect him to be somewheer from marginally to significantly worse next year. His contributions were also at the SF and PF spots. So we can easily replace his minutes at PF, and we can use Scal and/or Ray Allen at SF to cover that gap with the current roster. This would mean the more critical position to fill is the biggest weakness from last year: backup guard. Now we can get after finding an option that provides depth at the guard spots.

2. Posey should decline earlier and further than any of the big 3, especially KG and PP. I fully expect these guys to be able to play another 5 years at elite or near elite levels, barring a fluke injury (i.e. not regular wear and tear). I think they'll need to play less minutes, but the minutes they play will still be elite. Ray Allen - not so much, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him resigned for a cheaper ammount or moved or let go at the end of his deal anyways.

3. This feeds into the other ones, but I thought we had a solid window with Pierce and KG as the starts of five plus years. Beyond that I want a GM who doesn't have to relottery to stay competitive and rebuild.

[celticmaestro]

it's been a while since i last posted, but all i will say is this - our main concern this off-season was keeping hold of tom thibodeau. so far, so good.

good luck, big game james, hopefully we'll see you next june.

[zerophase]

it's been a while since i last posted, but all i will say is this - our main concern this off-season was keeping hold of tom thibodeau. so far, so good.

good luck, big game james, hopefully we'll see you next june.

true that TP. if you look at it now, we're looking pretty good this offseason.

[Jon]

Most of the wailing around here is absed on two assumptions:

1. Posey was indispensable - or close to it - to the 2009 title run.
2. Posey's decline will coincide with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and KG's.
3. No matter what we will be bad in two or three years (or at least in an inevitable decline.)

1. I don't really agree with any of these. Posey's contributions this year were about as good as he gets, I expect him to be somewheer from marginally to significantly worse next year. His contributions were also at the SF and PF spots. So we can easily replace his minutes at PF, and we can use Scal and/or Ray Allen at SF to cover that gap with the current roster. This would mean the more critical position to fill is the biggest weakness from last year: backup guard. Now we can get after finding an option that provides depth at the guard spots.

2. Posey should decline earlier and further than any of the big 3, especially KG and PP. I fully expect these guys to be able to play another 5 years at elite or near elite levels, barring a fluke injury (i.e. not regular wear and tear). I think they'll need to play less minutes, but the minutes they play will still be elite. Ray Allen - not so much, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him resigned for a cheaper ammount or moved or let go at the end of his deal anyways.

3. This feeds into the other ones, but I thought we had a solid window with Pierce and KG as the starts of five plus years. Beyond that I want a GM who doesn't have to relottery to stay competitive and rebuild.

Well, that may be partly true, but you neglect two points.  First, salary.  Pierce and Garnett consume about 40 million by themselves.  Thrown in a Rondo extension, Perk, and the contracts of some of the young guys, and you're already pushing 60 million, and that's not counting Ray Allen.  So I don't see exactly how Posey is going to financially handicap them.  If anything, they're already financially handicapped. 

The other point is totally independent of the C's.  What happens with the rest of the league?  The C's can continue to be good, but what happens if Bynum emerges to be a star or LeBron finally gets a surrounding cast.  I like the C's chances now, but if guys like Kobe or LeBron find a way to improve their teams, it isn't going to matter what the C's do in a couple years.  So I'd like to see more of an emphasis on the now, when we definitely have a chance to win. 

That said, I too think that all members of the Big Three will hold on longer than many think and I hope they can be competitive a long time. 

[crownsy]

Most of the wailing around here is absed on two assumptions:

1. Posey was indispensable - or close to it - to the 2009 title run.
2. Posey's decline will coincide with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and KG's.
3. No matter what we will be bad in two or three years (or at least in an inevitable decline.)

1. I don't really agree with any of these. Posey's contributions this year were about as good as he gets, I expect him to be somewheer from marginally to significantly worse next year. His contributions were also at the SF and PF spots. So we can easily replace his minutes at PF, and we can use Scal and/or Ray Allen at SF to cover that gap with the current roster. This would mean the more critical position to fill is the biggest weakness from last year: backup guard. Now we can get after finding an option that provides depth at the guard spots.

2. Posey should decline earlier and further than any of the big 3, especially KG and PP. I fully expect these guys to be able to play another 5 years at elite or near elite levels, barring a fluke injury (i.e. not regular wear and tear). I think they'll need to play less minutes, but the minutes they play will still be elite. Ray Allen - not so much, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him resigned for a cheaper ammount or moved or let go at the end of his deal anyways.

3. This feeds into the other ones, but I thought we had a solid window with Pierce and KG as the starts of five plus years. Beyond that I want a GM who doesn't have to relottery to stay competitive and rebuild.

Well, that may be partly true, but you neglect two points.  First, salary.  Pierce and Garnett consume about 40 million by themselves.  Thrown in a Rondo extension, Perk, and the contracts of some of the young guys, and you're already pushing 60 million, and that's not counting Ray Allen.  So I don't see exactly how Posey is going to financially handicap them.  If anything, they're already financially handicapped. 

The other point is totally independent of the C's.  What happens with the rest of the league?  The C's can continue to be good, but what happens if Bynum emerges to be a star or LeBron finally gets a surrounding cast.  I like the C's chances now, but if guys like Kobe or LeBron find a way to improve their teams, it isn't going to matter what the C's do in a couple years.  So I'd like to see more of an emphasis on the now, when we definitely have a chance to win. 

That said, I too think that all members of the Big Three will hold on longer than many think and I hope they can be competitive a long time. 

because if you give a player the full MLE for 4 years, it means you can't replace useful bench players.

its really not that complicated, if you keep the MLE offers short, you can bring in good players every year. if you don't, your over cap with no MLE and you cant do anything outside the vet minimum.

I love posey, but i'd rather have the MLE free for a bunch of 1 year contracts (like say, splitting it between house, TA, and another player) than have it gone for 4 years in one player.

[dirtyeggs]

Just makes me sad.  He is a great professional and really seems to be a standup guy.  Played the game the way it is supposed to be.

I wish him luck.

[half manbot]

Just saw the news on TV.  Congrats to James, he'll be a tough one to replace.  And thanks.

[fan33]

As a huge supporter of James, I'm sorry to have him leave because he needed and deserved to have his big pay day. Best regards James and thanks for the contributions and memorys!

I agree with Ainge, 4 yrs @ 25mil over the L. tax is just something that shouldn't be done when there are so many other ways this core and bench and available signings will be able to find ways to win; Added lenth atheletisim and development of our yout, for a few references, while allowing for further flexability such as the Champion draw for financialy situationaly similar players as was James here for...

Time to move on, as James would say... 

[Kwhit10]

Best of luck to Big Game James, I'm sure he will help with the nice young core that the Hornets have.

[nickagneta]

1.) Not signing Posey or signing Posey to a two year, five dollar a year deal or a 5 year full MLE deal all guarantees the exact same thing. Nothing! And there's no way to prove that having him here makes it more likely than not that they would win another title. It can't be done, no one can prove the future or guarantee it.

2.) Ten months ago the Celtics players 4-12(including such players as Rondo, Perk, Powe, House and Posey) were being called the worst 4-12 in the league by at least one, long-time, well respected basketball pundit. By the end of the year it was being discussed that the Celtics might have had one of the best 4-12 player groups in the league and easily the best defensive 4-12 group in the league. Most of that group will return.

3.) It has been assumed, from I would say 75% of this board or more, that the Celtics would be willing to pay luxury well into the next 4-5 years to assure future championships. They still may be. But not to the extent some believe. It seems based on this report and the action on the Celtics transactions board that the entire concept that ownership is willing to go into the luxury tax is a fairy tale.

In the previous 6 years the Celtics didn't do it. They were very close to not going over it last year and then went over it and then further into it with the Brown and Cassell deals. It could be that Danny has very, very stringent financial guidelines to be working within. I said from the get go that there was no proof of Wyc's continued willingness to go into the luxury tax area and that Danny's approval to do so could be pulled at anytime, so thinking giving Posey a long contract(one over 2 years) was a mistake. Maybe that approval was never given.

4.) I don't begrudge any man trying to make as much money as he possibly can. Players and owners alike. I have no ill will for James taking care of his family by taking the big bucks. I have no ill will towards Wyc Grousbeck if he wants his team to be as profitable as possible. he knows his P & L a lot better than we do and not every owner is Mark Cuban or george Steinbrennar. In fact, most aren't.

5.) There are still a lot of interesting scenarios that could go down with very good players. The following are all still in play even if some RFA's seem like no brainer matches, anything is possible:

Josh Childress
Josh Smith
Andre Iduodala
Eddie House
Emeka Okafor
Luol Deng
Ben Gordon
Delonte West
Jamaal Magliore(if healthy)
Tyrone Lue
J R Smith
Mart Barnes
Dikembe Mutombo
Juan Carlos Navarro
Ryan Gomes
Craig Smith
Jannero Pargo
Bonzi Wells
Carlos Arroyo
Michael Finley
Kurt Thomas

It is quite possible with the money left ove that the Celtics can attain three players that as a unit are as good as the three players that will not return of Posey, House, and Allen. (O'Bryant having already replaced Pollard, some might say Giddens has already replaced Allen).

6.) I expect larger contributions from Rondo, Perk, Powe, and Davis that may well offset some of the loss of quality playing time that we lose in Posey. Less so for Davis since his situation could rely heavily on his physical conditioning. But the others have shown continued growth for at least two years and I don't think it out of the question to think further improvement and more PT is unheard of.

7.) I believe regardless of who fills out this roster, and I still believe we will be surprised as to who is on the opening day roster, this team is the favorite to win it all next year because of the players who remain and the fact that they will be playing together for another year. This team still has growing to do together. The remaining players still have not reached their peak as a collective unit yet. IMO.

8.)It's July, not November.

9.) The sky is not falling.

[greg_kite]

I wouldn't be shocked to see Danny not sign anyone until after the trade deadline.  Someone with a big expiring contract could be traded and then bought out after the deadline.  The midlevel would be very appealing in February when some big names could be popping up.  Much bigger names than James Posey.

I loved Posey but Danny still offered 3 years, which is all he really should have offered.  Even that much was probably overpaying, considering he wasn't even starting.  

It's going to be hard enough to rebuild after the KG/Pierce/Allen era.  With a bench player earning $8 million a year it would have been tough to begin rebuilding.  They spent the money this year and won it all.  There are no guarantees that it would happen again.  

This is probably the last year they can win.  Portland is going to be a monster in two years, if not this year.  The Lakers too if Bynum gets healthy.  The C's window might be over already.  Now they have to look to get better, not just stay pat.  Maybe they can get two guys for what they would have had to pay for Posey.

[crownsy]

1.) Not signing Posey or signing Posey to a two year, five dollar a year deal or a 5 year full MLE deal all guarantees the exact same thing. Nothing! And there's no way to prove that having him here makes it more likely than not that they would win another title. It can't be done, no one can prove the future or guarantee it.

2.) Ten months ago the Celtics players 4-12(including such players as Rondo, Perk, Powe, House and Posey) were being called the worst 4-12 in the league by at least one, long-time, well respected basketball pundit. By the end of the year it was being discussed that the Celtics might have had one of the best 4-12 player groups in the league and easily the best defensive 4-12 group in the league. Most of that group will return.

3.) It has been assumed, from I would say 75% of this board or more, that the Celtics would be willing to pay luxury well into the next 4-5 years to assure future championships. They still may be. But not to the extent some believe. It seems based on this report and the action on the Celtics transactions board that the entire concept that ownership is willing to go into the luxury tax is a fairy tale.

In the previous 6 years the Celtics didn't do it. They were very close to not going over it last year and then went over it and then further into it with the Brown and Cassell deals. It could be that Danny has very, very stringent financial guidelines to be working within. I said from the get go that there was no proof of Wyc's continued willingness to go into the luxury tax area and that Danny's approval to do so could be pulled at anytime, so thinking giving Posey a long contract(one over 2 years) was a mistake. Maybe that approval was never given.

4.) I don't begrudge any man trying to make as much money as he possibly can. Players and owners alike. I have no ill will for James taking care of his family by taking the big bucks. I have no ill will towards Wyc Grousbeck if he wants his team to be as profitable as possible. he knows his P & L a lot better than we do and not every owner is Mark Cuban or george Steinbrennar. In fact, most aren't.

5.) There are still a lot of interesting scenarios that could go down with very good players. The following are all still in play even if some RFA's seem like no brainer matches, anything is possible:

Josh Childress
Josh Smith
Andre Iduodala
Eddie House
Emeka Okafor
Luol Deng
Ben Gordon
Delonte West
Jamaal Magliore(if healthy)
Tyrone Lue
J R Smith
Mart Barnes
Dikembe Mutombo
Juan Carlos Navarro
Ryan Gomes
Craig Smith
Jannero Pargo
Bonzi Wells
Carlos Arroyo
Michael Finley
Kurt Thomas

It is quite possible with the money left ove that the Celtics can attain three players that as a unit are as good as the three players that will not return of Posey, House, and Allen. (O'Bryant having already replaced Pollard, some might say Giddens has already replaced Allen).

6.) I expect larger contributions from Rondo, Perk, Powe, and Davis that may well offset some of the loss of quality playing time that we lose in Posey. Less so for Davis since his situation could rely heavily on his physical conditioning. But the others have shown continued growth for at least two years and I don't think it out of the question to think further improvement and more PT is unheard of.

7.) I believe regardless of who fills out this roster, and I still believe we will be surprised as to who is on the opening day roster, this team is the favorite to win it all next year because of the players who remain and the fact that they will be playing together for another year. This team still has growing to do together. The remaining players still have not reached their peak as a collective unit yet. IMO.

8.)It's July, not November.

9.) The sky is not falling.

nice post nick, TP

only thing i disagree with is that house and tony are gone, this in fact lends it self to eddie getting a slight raise and coming back i think, now we have the whole MLE to split up.

[rmcc4444]

as some of you know, i live in louisiana. quite a few people down here aren't happy with this move.  they'll be singing a different tune after they see him play 20-30 games.