Posey to the Hornets (Boston Globe Reporting)

[The Walker Wiggle]

The big 3 is this team.

Ubuntu?
 

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.

Count me among those that aren't worrying about the future, which could just as well involve another twenty year rebuilding project, regardless of whether or not we overpay Posey on the back end of his deal. Please nobody trot out that tired anecdote about Ainge wanting to trade a banged up Bird and McHale and a aging Parish.

We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.

Please be more specific, because Patrick O'Byrant is scraps. Darius Miles, Kirk Snyder and Stephon Marbury are scraps.

[crownsy]

pargoisnt, also this should make TA fans estatic, almost gaurntees he's back. theres still a ton of good guys out there for the mid level, and now its more  likely we get eddie house back as part of the mid.

It sucks, and posey will be missed, but to me, thats a bad deal. your basicly paying him for 2 years where he'll be very unlikely to produce like he has (when he's 35 and 36) espically givin the way he throws his body around.

Happy posey got payed, and sucks he's gone, but not super worried about it.

Look on the bright side, now every time we lose next year we can see "this is what happens when you don't pay for james posey!!!" threads 

[LarBrd33]

Congrats to Posey..I thought it would take 4 and that is what he got..I have a feeling that Danny's plan B has really been his plan A all along..we will see. Kind of like Theo in 2004...they both drew the line in the sand and hopefully it will pay dividends for us as well.

Like when Theo let Cabrera and Lowe go, so that he could sign Renteria and Clement? Did that help us repeat? Theo learned from his mistake at least and kept the 2007 champs together. I thought Ainge was learning from his mistakes (like firing Dick Harter and disregarding defense to hiring Thibs and seeing how defense pays). Or trying to be a brain doctor and signing guys like Googs and Scal to making the obvious signings of House, posey, and PJ. But with the O'Blount signing, not offering 3 yrs to Posey, or 2 to House, I don't see tht Ainge has turned the corner. Ainge has no problem biding against no one and signing Scal for 5 yrs or giving Blount 6 yrs or bringing in long term contracts Wally and Raef, but offering Posey and House 3 and 2 yrs respectively to compete once you finally have a good team? No that's too much.

The big 3 is this team.  Perk and Rondo are the other starters.   The bench is the big question.  Last year we made the most of what was left of NBA scraps by bringing in Pollard, House and Posey.  Mid-season we made the most of buyouts by bringing in Sam Cassell ... and eventually convincing PJ Brown to come out of retirement.   Ainge was basically throwing together pieces to fit around the starting 5 and it ended up working.  

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.   Again, this team needs needs a backup big man, a backup point guard, some defense off the bench... and Ainge clearly felt that our best chance of filling those gaps was using the MLE.  We'll see what he does with the MLE now that he has more options and flexibility.  We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.   I'm not worried.  I'm not in a state of panic.  And neither should anyone else on this board.  If we head into the season without signing anyone else... feel free to freak out.  But that's clearly not happening.  Ainge already basically mentioned that he has offers out and he's just waiting to see what happens.  Now that Posey is out of the picture, he can be more aggressive in his attempts to fill this team out (not just relying on vet minimums).

Ainge has said he's NOT signing another big. O'Blount is it. And he doesn't want to go longer than 1 yr on a backup pg. Why do people think he's saving this money to spend on others? He's said as much. This nonmove wasn't about getting someone else or salary cap flexibility. It was about Wyc wanting better profits. Basketball wise, I wouldn't have given Posey 5 yrs, but not offering 3? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a basketball decision. Wyc's trying to buy the LA Kings.

Johnnyrondo... so in a the next month when we end up spending the full MLE (the max Posey was going to get from us this year) will you still be saying silly things like, "this is about Wyc wanting better profits".

Bottom Line:  Posey wasn't worth what he was asking.   Movin on... i look forward to seeing what Ainge does to fill out this roster.

and as for the knocks on the Patrick O'Bryant signing.  We signed some raw 22 year old 7 footer to fill Scott Pollard's role.  I'm oddly fine with that.  Lets see how he does in his Comcast Sportsnet video debuts before we bash that signing, mmmkay?  Way too early to tell.

And my reference to "scraps".  The trade for Garnett happened late in the offseason when pretty much nobody was available.  Posey, House and Pollard were pretty much our only options.   Before we completely trash Ainge shouldn't we at least see what he does?  Do we know if it's Miles?  do we know if it's Gomes?  Do we know if it's Childress?  Nah... we know nothing.  HOld off on the panic.  The starting 5 is still here.

[Celtsfan33/34]

Picked a great day to join the Blog I see.  To be honest, as much as this sucks, I'm not surprised.  I think this makes resigning Eddie House more of a priority.  I also think this makes the combo of TA and Bill Walker crucial to the success of our 08/09 squad.

I'm very sad to see Posey leave, I'll give him an ovation when he comes to town, and at least he didn't go to the Lakers.

[cdif911]

First off, congrats to POZ. I think we would have won the title without him, but I could be very very wrong.  The Hornets may get over the hump with him on board...

Secondly, I think we need to take the approach of creating a logjam at the backup swing spots with minimum vet guys and see who takes the bull by the horns and wins the job.  THat means, if D. Miles wants to come here for the minimum great. Ruben Patterson? Come on board. Kederick Brown? You'll get cut in camp, but come for the ride. Reggie Miller? Last year was fun, still want a piece of this? Etc. Someone will stick. Maybe its a youngster who we already have the rights to (Giddens) maybe its a guy who's bounced around the league a bit and just needs to find himself in the right place. But if we create a competitive atmosphere in practice, which the Big 3 do, we'll be fine.  

[biggs1221]

Congrats to Posey..I thought it would take 4 and that is what he got..I have a feeling that Danny's plan B has really been his plan A all along..we will see. Kind of like Theo in 2004...they both drew the line in the sand and hopefully it will pay dividends for us as well.

Like when Theo let Cabrera and Lowe go, so that he could sign Renteria and Clement? Did that help us repeat? Theo learned from his mistake at least and kept the 2007 champs together. I thought Ainge was learning from his mistakes (like firing Dick Harter and disregarding defense to hiring Thibs and seeing how defense pays). Or trying to be a brain doctor and signing guys like Googs and Scal to making the obvious signings of House, posey, and PJ. But with the O'Blount signing, not offering 3 yrs to Posey, or 2 to House, I don't see tht Ainge has turned the corner. Ainge has no problem biding against no one and signing Scal for 5 yrs or giving Blount 6 yrs or bringing in long term contracts Wally and Raef, but offering Posey and House 3 and 2 yrs respectively to compete once you finally have a good team? No that's too much.

The big 3 is this team.  Perk and Rondo are the other starters.   The bench is the big question.  Last year we made the most of what was left of NBA scraps by bringing in Pollard, House and Posey.  Mid-season we made the most of buyouts by bringing in Sam Cassell ... and eventually convincing PJ Brown to come out of retirement.   Ainge was basically throwing together pieces to fit around the starting 5 and it ended up working.   

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.   Again, this team needs needs a backup big man, a backup point guard, some defense off the bench... and Ainge clearly felt that our best chance of filling those gaps was using the MLE.  We'll see what he does with the MLE now that he has more options and flexibility.  We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.   I'm not worried.  I'm not in a state of panic.  And neither should anyone else on this board.  If we head into the season without signing anyone else... feel free to freak out.  But that's clearly not happening.  Ainge already basically mentioned that he has offers out and he's just waiting to see what happens.  Now that Posey is out of the picture, he can be more aggressive in his attempts to fill this team out (not just relying on vet minimums).

Ainge has said he's NOT signing another big. O'Blount is it. And he doesn't want to go longer than 1 yr on a backup pg. Why do people think he's saving this money to spend on others? He's said as much. This nonmove wasn't about getting someone else or salary cap flexibility. It was about Wyc wanting better profits. Basketball wise, I wouldn't have given Posey 5 yrs, but not offering 3? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a basketball decision. Wyc's trying to buy the LA Kings.

I absolutely agree. This move has nothing to do with maintaining "financial flexibility."  From a purely basketball management perspective, a four year contract for Posey would not have harmed the team.  Any of the mle not used this year is essentially lost, and they wont be under the cap in 4 years anyway.

If the ownership does not end up using the full mle (on who, I don't know), this move can be seen as nothing else but a financial / money saving tactic for them, not the club. 

Also, any comparisons to the Patriots or Red Sox are completely irrelevant.  The Patriots work under a hard cap.  And the Sox vastly outspend all but 1 team in the league.

[Who]

Can we please stop calling O'Bryant "O'Blount"?

It's disrespectful to Blount to be compared to such a crap player. Too far, just too far.

Complimenting a player isn't a put down and that's what a comparison to Blount is for O'Bryant.

[winsomme]

Congrats to Posey..I thought it would take 4 and that is what he got..I have a feeling that Danny's plan B has really been his plan A all along..we will see. Kind of like Theo in 2004...they both drew the line in the sand and hopefully it will pay dividends for us as well.

Like when Theo let Cabrera and Lowe go, so that he could sign Renteria and Clement? Did that help us repeat? Theo learned from his mistake at least and kept the 2007 champs together. I thought Ainge was learning from his mistakes (like firing Dick Harter and disregarding defense to hiring Thibs and seeing how defense pays). Or trying to be a brain doctor and signing guys like Googs and Scal to making the obvious signings of House, posey, and PJ. But with the O'Blount signing, not offering 3 yrs to Posey, or 2 to House, I don't see tht Ainge has turned the corner. Ainge has no problem biding against no one and signing Scal for 5 yrs or giving Blount 6 yrs or bringing in long term contracts Wally and Raef, but offering Posey and House 3 and 2 yrs respectively to compete once you finally have a good team? No that's too much.

The big 3 is this team.  Perk and Rondo are the other starters.   The bench is the big question.  Last year we made the most of what was left of NBA scraps by bringing in Pollard, House and Posey.  Mid-season we made the most of buyouts by bringing in Sam Cassell ... and eventually convincing PJ Brown to come out of retirement.   Ainge was basically throwing together pieces to fit around the starting 5 and it ended up working.   

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.   Again, this team needs needs a backup big man, a backup point guard, some defense off the bench... and Ainge clearly felt that our best chance of filling those gaps was using the MLE.  We'll see what he does with the MLE now that he has more options and flexibility.  We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.   I'm not worried.  I'm not in a state of panic.  And neither should anyone else on this board.  If we head into the season without signing anyone else... feel free to freak out.  But that's clearly not happening.  Ainge already basically mentioned that he has offers out and he's just waiting to see what happens.  Now that Posey is out of the picture, he can be more aggressive in his attempts to fill this team out (not just relying on vet minimums).

Ainge has said he's NOT signing another big. O'Blount is it. And he doesn't want to go longer than 1 yr on a backup pg. Why do people think he's saving this money to spend on others? He's said as much. This nonmove wasn't about getting someone else or salary cap flexibility. It was about Wyc wanting better profits. Basketball wise, I wouldn't have given Posey 5 yrs, but not offering 3? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a basketball decision. Wyc's trying to buy the LA Kings.

I absolutely agree. This move has nothing to do with maintaining "financial flexibility."  From a purely basketball management perspective, a four year contract for Posey would not have harmed the team.  Any of the mle not used this year is essentially lost, and they wont be under the cap in 4 years anyway.

If the ownership does not end up using the full mle (on who, I don't know), this move can be seen as nothing else but a financial / money saving tactic for them, not the club. 

Also, any comparisons to the Patriots or Red Sox are completely irrelevant.  The Patriots work under a hard cap.  And the Sox vastly outspend all but 1 team in the league.

where would it save them money if they were offering him the full MLE?

plus, they must know that the best money maker is getting this team BACK to the Finals......money saving is illogical IMO.

[johnnyrondo]

Johnnyrondo... so in a the next month when we end up spending the full MLE (the max Posey was going to get from us this year) will you still be saying silly things like, "this is about Wyc wanting better profits".

Bottom Line:  Posey wasn't worth what he was asking.   Movin on... i look forward to seeing what Ainge does to fill out this roster.

and as for the knocks on the Patrick O'Bryant signing.  We signed some raw 22 year old 7 footer to fill Scott Pollard's role.  I'm oddly fine with that.  Lets see how he does in his Comcast Sportsnet video debuts before we bash that signing, mmmkay?  Way too early to tell.

And my reference to "scraps".  The trade for Garnett happened late in the offseason when pretty much nobody was available.  Posey, House and Pollard were pretty much our only options.   Before we completely trash Ainge shouldn't we at least see what he does?  Do we know if it's Miles?  do we know if it's Gomes?  Do we know if it's Childress?  Nah... we know nothing.  HOld off on the panic.  The starting 5 is still here.

If we spend the full MLE on someone, no I won't mention Wyc and profits, but who do you see us spending this full MLE on? Childress? Is Childress at 5 yrs and 34 mil  better basketball move than having offered posey 3 yrs/ 18 mil? Basically we have a 2 yr window, so the key is having the best 6th man posible for these next two yrs. But if they do use the full MLE, I'll send you an apology pm.

Regarding O'Bryant, why do people say he only needs to replace Pollard? pollard was a dud. Danny has said he's not signing another big, so o'bryant better be much more efective than Pollard. I could be more effective than pollard I hope O'Bryant shocks the world and does become a serviceable NBA player. i'm just not as goo goo over Ainge as many others are regarding his track record with finding great FA nuggets.

[sk7326]

The big 3 is this team.

Ubuntu?
 

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.

Count me among those that aren't worrying about the future, which could just as well involve another twenty year rebuilding project, regardless of whether or not we overpay Posey on the back end of his deal. Please nobody trot out that tired anecdote about Ainge wanting to trade a banged up Bird and McHale and a aging Parish.

We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.

Please be more specific, because Patrick O'Byrant is scraps. Darius Miles, Kirk Snyder and Stephon Marbury are scraps.

It has nothing to do with a 20 year rebuilding project.  It is about a reloading project in 3 years, which is a relevant thing to worry about.  Posey, like all players who contribute to a title, feels indispensible, but he is not.  Pierce, Garnett, THEY are indispensible.  Most title teams have some turnover on the fringes, and this is no different.

In 2005, Theo let core pieces of the 2004 champs go.  The misconception is that the Sox would have repeated keeping Cabrera and Pedro and Lowe, when Pedro's arm was about to fall off his body.  Would those guys have helped the Sox win it all in 2005?  Who knows?  

It was an organizational decision, and a tough one, but one that is entirely defensible.  Turnover is a fact of life, and most champions DO have some turnover on the fringes.  Repeating in the NBA is tough, and the teams that did had the best player in the league on it.  

O'Bryant is a useful flyer to take for the minimum salary.  Is he a dropoff from Scot Pollard?  Not at all, since Pollard couldn't stay on the floor.  O'Bryant may or may not be any good, who knows.  But he definitely has some ceiling, and a hypercritical assessment of his time in Golden State has to be tempered by the fact that he played for a coach who generally hates big men.  (hell, Nellie has one of the league's best centers now and does not like playing him) O'Bryant's wounds in GS were self inflicted, but he also played in a situation where he simply did not have a chance to succeed anyway.

How to replace Posey?  Well, not counting the trade market, Quinton Ross offers very similar defense.  He is not the same shooter Posey is obviously, but he showed a slightly higher willingness to take the shot a year ago.  He would fit into the defensive scheme quite nicely, and is probably a better man-to-man defender than Posey.  

I am intrigued more by Josh Childress though, although that will take time.  That is a matter of Josh Smith getting resigned by the bumbling Hawks ownership.  With their cap and ownership questions, really they might have to make an either/or decision there.  Childress is younger, and a much lower risk on the backside of a deal, and he is already a more efficient player on the glass and on the offensive end.

I will cheer when Posey returns.  He helped us win a title.  But he made a decision for his career, and I wish it would have been with us.

[rondofan1255]

I feel this move may spur what may give us many doubters (again).

Hopefully, this will make the C's more motivated in 2009, if we sign some people that are not expected to make this team better than last year (they might pan out hopefully). Hopefully, the media will be against us, just like 2008. There's no need to be too satisfied.

Not that this matters any, but I was rooting for the Hornets vs. the Mavs (remember that D. West- Nowitski chin tap?), and wanted them to beat the Spurs too. They were a pretty exciting team, compared to most of the other teams involved, and I didn't dislike any of their players.

So much better than the Cavs or Detroit or Lakers signing him.

[tenn_smoothie]

I would guess the % of people that thought Ainge should sign a 7pt career 6 man to whatever he wants is pretty close to the % of people that openly said Ainge didn't know what he was doing prior to May of 2007.  So in the respect maybe they should rethink their opinions.

i still don't have that much confidence in Danny. he made a myriad of bad trades before this year and kinda lucked into KG and the title ........ and this is one more bad decision.

[LarBrd33]

Johnnyrondo... so in a the next month when we end up spending the full MLE (the max Posey was going to get from us this year) will you still be saying silly things like, "this is about Wyc wanting better profits".

Bottom Line:  Posey wasn't worth what he was asking.   Movin on... i look forward to seeing what Ainge does to fill out this roster.

and as for the knocks on the Patrick O'Bryant signing.  We signed some raw 22 year old 7 footer to fill Scott Pollard's role.  I'm oddly fine with that.  Lets see how he does in his Comcast Sportsnet video debuts before we bash that signing, mmmkay?  Way too early to tell.

And my reference to "scraps".  The trade for Garnett happened late in the offseason when pretty much nobody was available.  Posey, House and Pollard were pretty much our only options.   Before we completely trash Ainge shouldn't we at least see what he does?  Do we know if it's Miles?  do we know if it's Gomes?  Do we know if it's Childress?  Nah... we know nothing.  HOld off on the panic.  The starting 5 is still here.

If we spend the full MLE on someone, no I won't mention Wyc and profits, but who do you see us spending this full MLE on? Childress? Is Childress at 5 yrs and 34 mil  better basketball move than having offered posey 3 yrs/ 18 mil? Basically we have a 2 yr window, so the key is having the best 6th man posible for these next two yrs. But if they do use the full MLE, I'll send you an apology pm.

Regarding O'Bryant, why do people say he only needs to replace Pollard? pollard was a dud. Danny has said he's not signing another big, so o'bryant better be much more efective than Pollard. I could be more effective than pollard I hope O'Bryant shocks the world and does become a serviceable NBA player. i'm just not as goo goo over Ainge as many others are regarding his track record with finding great FA nuggets.

Dude... come on.  I keep explaining how I see management's reasoning.  I'm not going to keep repeating it.  If you care to know, then read what I've already said.  I'm sorry that several of you posters are under the misguided belief that this team has suddenly decided to be cheap.  It has little to do with that.  It's about refusing to overpay a player and get tied down to a bad contract for 4 years when they perceive there are other options available.   I do not expect us to give the full MLE to anyone, honestly.  I think we offered it to Corey Maggette at one point... and offered it to Posey on a short term deal... but at this point I fully expect us to split the MLE to 2 or 3 players who can help us win next year.  

Everyone needs to stop being so dramatic.  And a lot of this overly negative spin is nauseating and exhausting to me.  People who keep saying we have a 2 year window and we should have just thrown Posey whatever he asked.... I think they are just purposely trying to be disagreeable and reactionary.   Don't buy into the hype... we'll find a serviceable replacement, fill out the rest of this roster and we'll be fine.    

[biggs1221]

Congrats to Posey..I thought it would take 4 and that is what he got..I have a feeling that Danny's plan B has really been his plan A all along..we will see. Kind of like Theo in 2004...they both drew the line in the sand and hopefully it will pay dividends for us as well.

Like when Theo let Cabrera and Lowe go, so that he could sign Renteria and Clement? Did that help us repeat? Theo learned from his mistake at least and kept the 2007 champs together. I thought Ainge was learning from his mistakes (like firing Dick Harter and disregarding defense to hiring Thibs and seeing how defense pays). Or trying to be a brain doctor and signing guys like Googs and Scal to making the obvious signings of House, posey, and PJ. But with the O'Blount signing, not offering 3 yrs to Posey, or 2 to House, I don't see tht Ainge has turned the corner. Ainge has no problem biding against no one and signing Scal for 5 yrs or giving Blount 6 yrs or bringing in long term contracts Wally and Raef, but offering Posey and House 3 and 2 yrs respectively to compete once you finally have a good team? No that's too much.

The big 3 is this team.  Perk and Rondo are the other starters.   The bench is the big question.  Last year we made the most of what was left of NBA scraps by bringing in Pollard, House and Posey.  Mid-season we made the most of buyouts by bringing in Sam Cassell ... and eventually convincing PJ Brown to come out of retirement.   Ainge was basically throwing together pieces to fit around the starting 5 and it ended up working.   

Well now Posey wanted 4 years 25 million in a deal that would hamper us for the future AND today.   Again, this team needs needs a backup big man, a backup point guard, some defense off the bench... and Ainge clearly felt that our best chance of filling those gaps was using the MLE.  We'll see what he does with the MLE now that he has more options and flexibility.  We don't have to rely on scraps anymore, because it's still early in the free agency period and there are several directions we can go to fill this team's needs.   I'm not worried.  I'm not in a state of panic.  And neither should anyone else on this board.  If we head into the season without signing anyone else... feel free to freak out.  But that's clearly not happening.  Ainge already basically mentioned that he has offers out and he's just waiting to see what happens.  Now that Posey is out of the picture, he can be more aggressive in his attempts to fill this team out (not just relying on vet minimums).

Ainge has said he's NOT signing another big. O'Blount is it. And he doesn't want to go longer than 1 yr on a backup pg. Why do people think he's saving this money to spend on others? He's said as much. This nonmove wasn't about getting someone else or salary cap flexibility. It was about Wyc wanting better profits. Basketball wise, I wouldn't have given Posey 5 yrs, but not offering 3? That's ridiculous. This wasn't a basketball decision. Wyc's trying to buy the LA Kings.

I absolutely agree. This move has nothing to do with maintaining "financial flexibility."  From a purely basketball management perspective, a four year contract for Posey would not have harmed the team.  Any of the mle not used this year is essentially lost, and they wont be under the cap in 4 years anyway.

If the ownership does not end up using the full mle (on who, I don't know), this move can be seen as nothing else but a financial / money saving tactic for them, not the club. 

Also, any comparisons to the Patriots or Red Sox are completely irrelevant.  The Patriots work under a hard cap.  And the Sox vastly outspend all but 1 team in the league.

where would it save them money if they were offering him the full MLE?

plus, they must know that the best money maker is getting this team BACK to the Finals......money saving is illogical IMO.

It would only save them $ in year 4, which is why this move is hard to fathom (unless Ainge really has something else he is working on - or feels splitting the mle on the likes of House, others, and locking up Walker is more valuable to the club).  I guess my point is the following: when you are going to be over / around the salary cap anyway in 4 years, giving the extra / 4th year to Posey would have in no way hampered the clubs ability to sign / trade for other players at that time or over the next three years.

Thus, it appears to come down to how much ownership is willing to spend (again, unless there is some other plan in place / players they are targeting).

Of course, this does not always mean that ownership is being cheap.  I have no sense of ownership's profit margin or how much the team has increases in value since their purchase.  Perhaps the team is in the red, with no real increase to value.  If that is the case, then cost saving moves are understandable.  But, I doubt that is the case.

[johnnyrondo]

Can we please stop calling O'Bryant "O'Blount"?

It's disrespectful to Blount to be compared to such a crap player. Too far, just too far.

Complimenting a player isn't a put down and that's what a comparison to Blount is for O'Bryant.

But O'Earl or O'Kite or O'Pollard or O'Vrankovic might be seen as compliments too (and they don't sound as catchy)