Author Topic: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter  (Read 30326 times)

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Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2008, 10:31:57 AM »

Offline MattD

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Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.
Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I'm saying Powe might have helped, because a lot of the ways he contributes do help his teammates play better.  People have already listed team stats, but here are some of the factors that go into those stats:

- Powe draws more fouls than BBD, which can be crucial.  In game 7 against the Cavs, for example, Powe drew two fouls early in the 2nd quarter; as a result, the Cavs were over the limit from about the 6:30 mark of the 2nd quarter, the Celtics started going to the basket rather than settling for jump shots, and in the second half of that quarter they built the lead that they hung on to in the 2nd half to win the game and the series.  And of course, a player like McDyess, Maxiel or Rasheed can't hurt us if they're on the bench in foul trouble.

- Powe draws charges -- related to the above, of course, but worth noting separately because of the way it energizes his teammates and demoralizes the opponent, often making them settle for jumpshots more readily.

- Powe gets offensive rebounds and put-backs.  Beyond how this impacts the stat-sheet, it means that the opponent's players have to pay more attention to boxing out and are less free to leak out for easy transition baskets.  How many times, with Powe not in there, have you seen our guys take jumpshots with nobody under the basket, the Pistons get the rebound uncontested, and go on the fast break?

- Powe commits fewer fouls than BBD.  Basically the inverse of the above; BBD seems good for 1-3 silly fouls per game, moving screens and such, that get us over the limit that much faster.  And Powe seems to be a better one-on-one defender than BBD, which means when he does rotate, he's able to actually guard the player he rotates to better, without fouling.

- Powe works better within our offense, especially the half-court offense that's typified this series.  Powe is probably the best guy on the team at finding open spaces for easy buckets, and at making himself available when players like Pierce or KG get surrounded under the basket -- in the past few games, when those players haven't had that outlet, those plays have resulted in turnovers, which encourages us to settle for jumpshots.  The pick and roll with Powe was one of our more reliable plays in the second half of the season; once that is run a few times, teams have to respect Powe rather than doubling our shooters.  Also, the play where Powe hands off to Posey who's driving the baseline is a good way to get Posey involved, which is so key with Ray Allen struggling.

- The other guys seem to respond to Powe a bit better.  Contrast the energy he brought to the team with his dunk in the Atlanta series against the discord BBD's selfish play brought at the end of the last game.

Look, I'm not blind to Powe's faults.  But the truth is, every player is a compromise.  With Pierce you get the turnovers, the hero shots, the not rotating to cover outside shooters.  With KG you get the fact that he draws few fouls because of his outside play, the next time he steps up to take a charge will be the first, etc.  I'm not saying that the upside to playing Powe is as great as these players, either.  But I am suggesting that the team-wide benefits his play results in overweigh the 5-6 points that may result from his botched rotations when he's given ~15 minutes of playing time.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2008, 10:42:12 AM »

Offline Chris

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I think on this and the "Doc Rivers" thread, people have put together some compelling data, bother for the regular season and playoffs.  I will poke around after work tonight and see if I can put together more.  I suspect we may have to agree to disagree though.

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.
Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I am saying it is nowhere near valid.  Feel free to run some statistical analysis though, and prove me wrong.

I think there is a crossup here.  I was saying that there is no validity to the argument that because the C's lost two of the 3 games where Davis played more minutes than Powe against Detroit, it means that the defense performs better when Powe is in the game.

The Data shows that against other teams, the team performs better when Powe is in there than Davis.  I am saying that Detroit is different than most teams.  Right now, there is not nearly enough data to argue this in either direction, so we have to make the argument based on what we see.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2008, 10:59:30 AM »

Offline expobear

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I think on this and the "Doc Rivers" thread, people have put together some compelling data, bother for the regular season and playoffs.  I will poke around after work tonight and see if I can put together more.  I suspect we may have to agree to disagree though.

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.
Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I am saying it is nowhere near valid.  Feel free to run some statistical analysis though, and prove me wrong.

I think there is a crossup here.  I was saying that there is no validity to the argument that because the C's lost two of the 3 games where Davis played more minutes than Powe against Detroit, it means that the defense performs better when Powe is in the game.

The Data shows that against other teams, the team performs better when Powe is in there than Davis.  I am saying that Detroit is different than most teams.  Right now, there is not nearly enough data to argue this in either direction, so we have to make the argument based on what we see.


Chris,

Powe played 2 minutes in three games against Detroit during the regular season.  He's played 12 minutes in 4 games against Detroit during the playoffs.  And in the first game against Detroit, Powe played 8 of those 12 minutes grabbed 2 boards and scored 4 points, not missing a shot or a free throw in a Celtics victory.  I don't think even a Powe basher could conclude that the stats prove that the team plays better without Powe against Detroit because Powe hasn't been given a chance to prove anything.

The bottom line is a stat that Roy brought up.  The Celtics are 8-3 in the playoffs when Powe plays fairly substantial minutes.  Powe is a winner, ironically, because of the intangibles he brings to the team.  Here, the ardent Powe fans are trying to justify more playing time for Powe by bringing out the stats (which overwhelmingly favor Powe) when the things Powe does for a team can't be measured by stats. Like I've said, the Celtics can win without Powe, but the road to victory would be made easier with Powe playing at least 10-12 minutes a game minimally and more if he's playing well.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2008, 11:12:32 AM »

Offline Chris

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Chris,

Powe played 2 minutes in three games against Detroit during the regular season.  He's played 12 minutes in 4 games against Detroit during the playoffs.  And in the first game against Detroit, Powe played 8 of those 12 minutes grabbed 2 boards and scored 4 points, not missing a shot or a free throw in a Celtics victory.  I don't think even a Powe basher could conclude that the stats prove that the team plays better without Powe against Detroit because Powe hasn't been given a chance to prove anything.


Have you ever heard the term "correlation does not equal causation"?  Maybe, just maybe the reason isn't that Doc is just an idiot who is holding Powe back, but he happens to know that putting Powe against Detroit is putting him into a situation to fail.

Everyone says after a player gets in and does well "why wasn't he playing earlier", but they don't think about the fact that sometimes a coach can actually determine what is a good matchup for a certain player, and can therefore wait to put them in a position to succeed.


The bottom line is a stat that Roy brought up.  The Celtics are 8-3 in the playoffs when Powe plays fairly substantial minutes.  Powe is a winner, ironically, because of the intangibles he brings to the team.  Here, the ardent Powe fans are trying to justify more playing time for Powe by bringing out the stats (which overwhelmingly favor Powe) when the things Powe does for a team can't be measured by stats. Like I've said, the Celtics can win without Powe, but the road to victory would be made easier with Powe playing at least 10-12 minutes a game minimally and more if he's playing well.

And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2008, 11:16:36 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?



I am on board with this.  Scali ahead of both of them. 

(not making a joke)



Get the guy whose career is being a 10 minute or less PF that plays good team defense. 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2008, 11:19:44 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?



I am on board with this.  Scali ahead of both of them. 

(not making a joke)



Get the guy whose career is being a 10 minute or less PF that plays good team defense. 

Scal hurts us rebounding and on offense.  We play 4-on-5 when he's out there.  However, if McDyess continues to kill us, frankly, Scal isn't the worst choice in the world.  The *only* time Scal is justified is when the other team has a high-scoring power forward, and this may be one of those times (although part of me knows that if we start game-planning around Antonio McDyess, we're screwed).

I'd play Powe and P.J.  Powe has consistently been the best big man all year, and P.J. brings a different dimension to the team.  BBD can sit.

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Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2008, 11:22:40 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?



I am on board with this.  Scali ahead of both of them. 

(not making a joke)



Get the guy whose career is being a 10 minute or less PF that plays good team defense. 

Scal hurts us rebounding and on offense.  We play 4-on-5 when he's out there.  However, if McDyess continues to kill us, frankly, Scal isn't the worst choice in the world.  The *only* time Scal is justified is when the other team has a high-scoring power forward, and this may be one of those times (although part of me knows that if we start game-planning around Antonio McDyess, we're screwed).

I'd play Powe and P.J.  Powe has consistently been the best big man all year, and P.J. brings a different dimension to the team.  BBD can sit.


Neither Powe or Davis are pulling defenders much either. 


My point is that we are talking about a role that is a 2-7 minutes each game. 

Do Davis' or Powe's game really give you much during that amount of time?  Neither is grabbing a lot of rebounds.  Neither is a main part of the offense.

But Scali's game is a plus in short minutes.



If we were talking about a 15-20 minute roll, then Powe (or Davis) would be you man. 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2008, 11:25:06 AM »

Online Redz

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And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?



I am on board with this.  Scali ahead of both of them. 

(not making a joke)



Get the guy whose career is being a 10 minute or less PF that plays good team defense. 

Scal hurts us rebounding and on offense.  We play 4-on-5 when he's out there.  However, if McDyess continues to kill us, frankly, Scal isn't the worst choice in the world.  The *only* time Scal is justified is when the other team has a high-scoring power forward, and this may be one of those times (although part of me knows that if we start game-planning around Antonio McDyess, we're screwed).

I'd play Powe and P.J.  Powe has consistently been the best big man all year, and P.J. brings a different dimension to the team.  BBD can sit.

I'm on board.  Suit up Scals! 

For the ultimate effect (affect?  - [dang it] ??? ) he should have his uniform on under street clothes then tear out of them when McDyess starts heating up.  I'm sure NBA has some sort of rule against this, but for entertainment purposes maybe they'd make an exception.

Who do you make inactive for Scals?  Big Baby?
Yup

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2008, 11:48:39 AM »

Offline expobear

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Chris,

Powe played 2 minutes in three games against Detroit during the regular season.  He's played 12 minutes in 4 games against Detroit during the playoffs.  And in the first game against Detroit, Powe played 8 of those 12 minutes grabbed 2 boards and scored 4 points, not missing a shot or a free throw in a Celtics victory.  I don't think even a Powe basher could conclude that the stats prove that the team plays better without Powe against Detroit because Powe hasn't been given a chance to prove anything.


Have you ever heard the term "correlation does not equal causation"?  Maybe, just maybe the reason isn't that Doc is just an idiot who is holding Powe back, but he happens to know that putting Powe against Detroit is putting him into a situation to fail.

Everyone says after a player gets in and does well "why wasn't he playing earlier", but they don't think about the fact that sometimes a coach can actually determine what is a good matchup for a certain player, and can therefore wait to put them in a position to succeed.


The bottom line is a stat that Roy brought up.  The Celtics are 8-3 in the playoffs when Powe plays fairly substantial minutes.  Powe is a winner, ironically, because of the intangibles he brings to the team.  Here, the ardent Powe fans are trying to justify more playing time for Powe by bringing out the stats (which overwhelmingly favor Powe) when the things Powe does for a team can't be measured by stats. Like I've said, the Celtics can win without Powe, but the road to victory would be made easier with Powe playing at least 10-12 minutes a game minimally and more if he's playing well.

And the C's were 19-4 in the regular season when Scalabrine played more than 10 minutes.  Does that mean that he is responsible for that?


<<<Have you ever heard the term "correlation does not equal causation"?  Maybe, just maybe the reason isn't that Doc is just an idiot who is holding Powe back, but he happens to know that putting Powe against Detroit is putting him into a situation to fail.

Everyone says after a player gets in and does well "why wasn't he playing earlier", but they don't think about the fact that sometimes a coach can actually determine what is a good matchup for a certain player, and can therefore wait to put them in a position to succeed.>>>


If Garnett hadn't gotten hurt during the regular season, Rivers would not have played Powe period.  He had coached Powe for a year and a half and Rivers still didn't know what Powe was/is capable of doing.  As far as how Rivers is handling Powe during the playoffs.....he's screwing up Powe and I don't think Rivers has a clue.  Powe is not the answer to the Celtics winning the whole thing but he can certainly contribute.  If Powe fails, fine but he's not doing any worse than anybody else. All I'm asking is a chance for Powe to either succeed or fail.  I think he's at least earned that given what he's done during the regular season and even the playoffs when given some time and how the Celtics' bench has faired recently. 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2008, 12:31:20 PM »

Offline Chris

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If Garnett hadn't gotten hurt during the regular season, Rivers would not have played Powe period.  He had coached Powe for a year and a half and Rivers still didn't know what Powe was/is capable of doing.  As far as how Rivers is handling Powe during the playoffs.....he's screwing up Powe and I don't think Rivers has a clue.  Powe is not the answer to the Celtics winning the whole thing but he can certainly contribute.  If Powe fails, fine but he's not doing any worse than anybody else. All I'm asking is a chance for Powe to either succeed or fail.  I think he's at least earned that given what he's done during the regular season and even the playoffs when given some time and how the Celtics' bench has faired recently. 


Actually, Powe joined the rotation 4 games before Garnett went down.  Garnett getting hurt just upped his playing time from about 15 minutes per game to 30 minutes per game, but Doc was playing him before then.

Did you ever think that maybe, Powe just improved in practice over the first few months to earn his playing time?


Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2008, 12:54:51 PM »

Offline jimmyt

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If Garnett hadn't gotten hurt during the regular season, Rivers would not have played Powe period.  He had coached Powe for a year and a half and Rivers still didn't know what Powe was/is capable of doing.  As far as how Rivers is handling Powe during the playoffs.....he's screwing up Powe and I don't think Rivers has a clue.  Powe is not the answer to the Celtics winning the whole thing but he can certainly contribute.  If Powe fails, fine but he's not doing any worse than anybody else. All I'm asking is a chance for Powe to either succeed or fail.  I think he's at least earned that given what he's done during the regular season and even the playoffs when given some time and how the Celtics' bench has faired recently. 


Actually, Powe joined the rotation 4 games before Garnett went down.  Garnett getting hurt just upped his playing time from about 15 minutes per game to 30 minutes per game, but Doc was playing him before then.

Did you ever think that maybe, Powe just improved in practice over the first few months to earn his playing time?



I think Powe definitely earned his playing time, which is why I think he should be in the game before Davis. We havent seen enough of Powe to determine if its a bad matchup or not, so I'm not sure why you claim Doc just knows he is a bad matchup against these Pistons. If Davis was playing well, I wouldn't be calling for Powe, but the bottom line is that we have lost two out of the last three games and Glen Davis hasen't done anything in my opinion to continue to get minutes over Powe.

The Pistons have numerous flaws too, it might take a banger like Powe to expose them.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2008, 01:14:51 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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This thread is disgusting.

We all know Leon should have seen more PT last night, but if we win the game this thread doesn't exist IMO.

Nobody cuts Doc ANY slack.

Remember when BBD came up huge for us vs. the pistons in the regular season?

I didn't hear anybody complaining for more Powe then.

Don't get me wrong, I"m the biggest Leown Powe fan out here, but I stand by Doc and his decisions NO MATTER WHAT!

Baby looked lost last night so I expect Doc to bounce back with Leon at home tomorrow night, but whatever he decides i stand by his decision and i suggest you all do as well.

And dont call yourself the biggest leon powe fan out there if you dont get mad at Doc for not playing during a game in which he could have made a difference.

Ya we remember the game when Big Baby played well against the Pistons, the only reason people werent calling for Powe then is because he never saw a solid amount of minutes until january 16, 11 days after davis' game against detroit. Since then, he has done enough to earn playing time especially when we need energy off the bench. Doc failed to do that last night.

Did you even read what you wrote?

COULD have made a difference! COULD HAVE!

You second guess Doc for not making a move which carried no guarantee.

And you wanted him in for whom? BBD? Baby didn't even play that poorly....4 rebounds in 11 minutes.

Stop 2nd guessing your coach just because you are highly opinionated! It makes me want to throw up in my own mouth and I believe Leon Powe was this year's Most Improved Player!

Again, if we win that game you most likely stay mute and don't praise DOC for going with BBD, but BBD didn't have his best performance, so you call out Doc for not putting in Leon. You're simply no better than the media.

You've got to understand that a con for being such a deep team is that Doc has a lot of options. Since he has so many options he can't be right all the time. What's important is that he's right when it counts (i.e. in every swing game this post-season).

Feel free to call out:

Rondo - for not showing up/making poor decisions/turning down open shots
Posey - for throwing up that prayer (which Rip blocked) late in the 4th in crunch time - there were 9 seconds on that shot clock when he tossed that prayer up!
Ray Ray - for being afraid to shoot/missing 2 free throws in crunch time
Cassell - for showing us all how to successfully NOT hit a shot while at the same time not having a single assist in 16 minutes playing with 3 hall-of-famers to be

...but PLEASE for the love of Zeus' beard please don't call out Doc for playing these guys

Also, not to go all stat boy on you but Leon Powe didn't see a single second of PT on Jan 16th...His first 14+ minute game came on Jan 18th  ;)


16th..18th.. you get the point...

obvious it is "could have"... its called second guessing because you dont know for sure. Some day when Doc makes a decent in-game decision, we may find out. I dont believe that I was the only one screaming to give Powe some minutes during the game though. Last time I checked 4 rebounds in 11 minutes dont win games.
I do want to go stat boy on you right now though so here we go.

During the regular season Powe averaged more minutes per game (14.5 to 13.7), points (7.9 to 4.5), rebounds (4.1 to 3.0), better ft% (.710 to .660), better fg% (.572 to .484)

Glen Davis played 942 minutes in the regular season and Powe played 810 = Davis played 132 more minutes than Powe did.

So how is it that Powe hit 137 free throws and Davis took a combined 150 hitting only 99 of them?

How is it that Powe has 18 more blocks than Davis did?

How is it that Powe has 442 rebounds to Davis' 208?

And finally, How is it that Powe has scored almost 400 more points than Davis?

The answer is simple really. He is better and should be in the game more often than Glen Davis. ;)

Is that a joke?

Did you seriously get your original stat wrong, then come back saying you're going to go stat boy on me, only to provide stats from the REGULAR SEASON?  ???

Perhaps you are not aware that the regular season and Eastern Conference Finals (or playoffs for that matter) are a completely different game/beast.

You're not even comparing apples and oranges (they are at least both fruits), you're comparing apples with basketballs!  ;D

Even if you're going to talk about the regular season, how did you fail to mention that Glen Davis won the game for us in the 4th quarter in the regular season vs. Detroit.  

I suppose it's fun to bring up meaningless stats which APPEAR to support your case (your case/point in case you forgot is Leon "could have" changed things in game 4), but actually have no bearing on current reality.  I also suppose the fact that we beat teams by an average of 10.2 (i think, didn't look that up) during the regular season didn't play any role in Powe's very impressive stats. Are you realizing that the majority of the season (seeing as how he only saw 14+ minutes half way through January) he was playing against the opposition's bench? The bench is generally of a weaker skill level than the starters. Detroit has a 2/3 man bench....Maxiel, Stuckey, and if need be....Lindsay Hunter...aka they barely have a bench at all.

Meaning Powe has to play against Sheed/McDyess/Prince....none of which he matches up well against. At least Baby can use his 316 lbs. to move them around, and if BBD isn't picking up fouls I don't see how he is a liability on the floor at all.

Also, whomever said that 4 rebounds in 11 minutes doesn't get wins is crazy IMO. Just an FYI but 4 rebounds in 11 minutes is equivalent to 17.5 rebounds in 48 minutes ;)

Please do not personalize, no need for this.
To conclude and come full circle, Powe or Davis.....I support the Doc's choice 100%.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 09:56:19 AM by Edgar »
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Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2008, 01:28:11 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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That's fair.

I think on this and the "Doc Rivers" thread, people have put together some compelling data, bother for the regular season and playoffs.  I will poke around after work tonight and see if I can put together more.  I suspect we may have to agree to disagree though.

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.
Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I am saying it is nowhere near valid.  Feel free to run some statistical analysis though, and prove me wrong.

I think there is a crossup here.  I was saying that there is no validity to the argument that because the C's lost two of the 3 games where Davis played more minutes than Powe against Detroit, it means that the defense performs better when Powe is in the game.

The Data shows that against other teams, the team performs better when Powe is in there than Davis.  I am saying that Detroit is different than most teams.  Right now, there is not nearly enough data to argue this in either direction, so we have to make the argument based on what we see.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2008, 01:43:51 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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That seems a little much, to say you lack respect for someone and go off on their life, etc.

To try to shift the conversation back to a less personal note, in what situations would you not support Doc 100%?  If Doc was, in fact, a bad coach, or if you were trying to figure out if he was a good coach or a bad coach, what metrics would you use to figure that out?

Wins and losses are only part of it.  You could have a great coach with a bad team that does poorly and a bad coach with a great team that does very well.  The question is the contribution of the coach in comparison to the contribution of an average coach in that situation.

So how do you arrive at the conclusion that Doc is doing a good job?  If you thought Doc was wrong, how would you arrive at that conclusion?

This thread is disgusting.

We all know Leon should have seen more PT last night, but if we win the game this thread doesn't exist IMO.

Nobody cuts Doc ANY slack.

Remember when BBD came up huge for us vs. the pistons in the regular season?

I didn't hear anybody complaining for more Powe then.

Don't get me wrong, I"m the biggest Leown Powe fan out here, but I stand by Doc and his decisions NO MATTER WHAT!

Baby looked lost last night so I expect Doc to bounce back with Leon at home tomorrow night, but whatever he decides i stand by his decision and i suggest you all do as well.

And dont call yourself the biggest leon powe fan out there if you dont get mad at Doc for not playing during a game in which he could have made a difference.

Ya we remember the game when Big Baby played well against the Pistons, the only reason people werent calling for Powe then is because he never saw a solid amount of minutes until january 16, 11 days after davis' game against detroit. Since then, he has done enough to earn playing time especially when we need energy off the bench. Doc failed to do that last night.

Did you even read what you wrote?

COULD have made a difference! COULD HAVE!

You second guess Doc for not making a move which carried no guarantee.

And you wanted him in for whom? BBD? Baby didn't even play that poorly....4 rebounds in 11 minutes.

Stop 2nd guessing your coach just because you are highly opinionated! It makes me want to throw up in my own mouth and I believe Leon Powe was this year's Most Improved Player!

Again, if we win that game you most likely stay mute and don't praise DOC for going with BBD, but BBD didn't have his best performance, so you call out Doc for not putting in Leon. You're simply no better than the media.

You've got to understand that a con for being such a deep team is that Doc has a lot of options. Since he has so many options he can't be right all the time. What's important is that he's right when it counts (i.e. in every swing game this post-season).

Feel free to call out:

Rondo - for not showing up/making poor decisions/turning down open shots
Posey - for throwing up that prayer (which Rip blocked) late in the 4th in crunch time - there were 9 seconds on that shot clock when he tossed that prayer up!
Ray Ray - for being afraid to shoot/missing 2 free throws in crunch time
Cassell - for showing us all how to successfully NOT hit a shot while at the same time not having a single assist in 16 minutes playing with 3 hall-of-famers to be

...but PLEASE for the love of Zeus' beard please don't call out Doc for playing these guys

Also, not to go all stat boy on you but Leon Powe didn't see a single second of PT on Jan 16th...His first 14+ minute game came on Jan 18th  ;)


16th..18th.. you get the point...

obvious it is "could have"... its called second guessing because you dont know for sure. Some day when Doc makes a decent in-game decision, we may find out. I dont believe that I was the only one screaming to give Powe some minutes during the game though. Last time I checked 4 rebounds in 11 minutes dont win games.
I do want to go stat boy on you right now though so here we go.

During the regular season Powe averaged more minutes per game (14.5 to 13.7), points (7.9 to 4.5), rebounds (4.1 to 3.0), better ft% (.710 to .660), better fg% (.572 to .484)

Glen Davis played 942 minutes in the regular season and Powe played 810 = Davis played 132 more minutes than Powe did.

So how is it that Powe hit 137 free throws and Davis took a combined 150 hitting only 99 of them?

How is it that Powe has 18 more blocks than Davis did?

How is it that Powe has 442 rebounds to Davis' 208?

And finally, How is it that Powe has scored almost 400 more points than Davis?

The answer is simple really. He is better and should be in the game more often than Glen Davis. ;)

Is that a joke?

Did you seriously get your original stat wrong, then come back saying you're going to go stat boy on me, only to provide stats from the REGULAR SEASON?  ???

Perhaps you are not aware that the regular season and Eastern Conference Finals (or playoffs for that matter) are a completely different game/beast.

You're not even comparing apples and oranges (they are at least both fruits), you're comparing apples with basketballs!  ;D

Even if you're going to talk about the regular season, how did you fail to mention that Glen Davis won the game for us in the 4th quarter in the regular season vs. Detroit.  

I suppose it's fun to bring up meaningless stats which APPEAR to support your case (your case/point in case you forgot is Leon "could have" changed things in game 4), but actually have no bearing on current reality.  I also suppose the fact that we beat teams by an average of 10.2 (i think, didn't look that up) during the regular season didn't play any role in Powe's very impressive stats. Are you realizing that the majority of the season (seeing as how he only saw 14+ minutes half way through January) he was playing against the opposition's bench? The bench is generally of a weaker skill level than the starters. Detroit has a 2/3 man bench....Maxiel, Stuckey, and if need be....Lindsay Hunter...aka they barely have a bench at all.

Meaning Powe has to play against Sheed/McDyess/Prince....none of which he matches up well against. At least Baby can use his 316 lbs. to move them around, and if BBD isn't picking up fouls I don't see how he is a liability on the floor at all.

Also, whomever said that 4 rebounds in 11 minutes doesn't get wins is crazy IMO. Just an FYI but 4 rebounds in 11 minutes is equivalent to 17.5 rebounds in 48 minutes ;)

Edited no need to personalize.


To conclude and come full circle, Powe or Davis.....I support the Doc's choice 100%.


« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 09:54:06 AM by Edgar »

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2008, 04:56:45 PM »

Offline jimmyt

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This thread is disgusting.

We all know Leon should have seen more PT last night, but if we win the game this thread doesn't exist IMO.

Nobody cuts Doc ANY slack.

Remember when BBD came up huge for us vs. the pistons in the regular season?

I didn't hear anybody complaining for more Powe then.

Don't get me wrong, I"m the biggest Leown Powe fan out here, but I stand by Doc and his decisions NO MATTER WHAT!

Baby looked lost last night so I expect Doc to bounce back with Leon at home tomorrow night, but whatever he decides i stand by his decision and i suggest you all do as well.

And dont call yourself the biggest leon powe fan out there if you dont get mad at Doc for not playing during a game in which he could have made a difference.

Ya we remember the game when Big Baby played well against the Pistons, the only reason people werent calling for Powe then is because he never saw a solid amount of minutes until january 16, 11 days after davis' game against detroit. Since then, he has done enough to earn playing time especially when we need energy off the bench. Doc failed to do that last night.

Did you even read what you wrote?

COULD have made a difference! COULD HAVE!

You second guess Doc for not making a move which carried no guarantee.

And you wanted him in for whom? BBD? Baby didn't even play that poorly....4 rebounds in 11 minutes.

Stop 2nd guessing your coach just because you are highly opinionated! It makes me want to throw up in my own mouth and I believe Leon Powe was this year's Most Improved Player!

Again, if we win that game you most likely stay mute and don't praise DOC for going with BBD, but BBD didn't have his best performance, so you call out Doc for not putting in Leon. You're simply no better than the media.

You've got to understand that a con for being such a deep team is that Doc has a lot of options. Since he has so many options he can't be right all the time. What's important is that he's right when it counts (i.e. in every swing game this post-season).

Feel free to call out:

Rondo - for not showing up/making poor decisions/turning down open shots
Posey - for throwing up that prayer (which Rip blocked) late in the 4th in crunch time - there were 9 seconds on that shot clock when he tossed that prayer up!
Ray Ray - for being afraid to shoot/missing 2 free throws in crunch time
Cassell - for showing us all how to successfully NOT hit a shot while at the same time not having a single assist in 16 minutes playing with 3 hall-of-famers to be

...but PLEASE for the love of Zeus' beard please don't call out Doc for playing these guys

Also, not to go all stat boy on you but Leon Powe didn't see a single second of PT on Jan 16th...His first 14+ minute game came on Jan 18th  ;)


16th..18th.. you get the point...

obvious it is "could have"... its called second guessing because you dont know for sure. Some day when Doc makes a decent in-game decision, we may find out. I dont believe that I was the only one screaming to give Powe some minutes during the game though. Last time I checked 4 rebounds in 11 minutes dont win games.
I do want to go stat boy on you right now though so here we go.

During the regular season Powe averaged more minutes per game (14.5 to 13.7), points (7.9 to 4.5), rebounds (4.1 to 3.0), better ft% (.710 to .660), better fg% (.572 to .484)

Glen Davis played 942 minutes in the regular season and Powe played 810 = Davis played 132 more minutes than Powe did.

So how is it that Powe hit 137 free throws and Davis took a combined 150 hitting only 99 of them?

How is it that Powe has 18 more blocks than Davis did?

How is it that Powe has 442 rebounds to Davis' 208?

And finally, How is it that Powe has scored almost 400 more points than Davis?

The answer is simple really. He is better and should be in the game more often than Glen Davis. ;)

Is that a joke?

Did you seriously get your original stat wrong, then come back saying you're going to go stat boy on me, only to provide stats from the REGULAR SEASON?  ???

Perhaps you are not aware that the regular season and Eastern Conference Finals (or playoffs for that matter) are a completely different game/beast.

You're not even comparing apples and oranges (they are at least both fruits), you're comparing apples with basketballs!  ;D

Even if you're going to talk about the regular season, how did you fail to mention that Glen Davis won the game for us in the 4th quarter in the regular season vs. Detroit.   

I suppose it's fun to bring up meaningless stats which APPEAR to support your case (your case/point in case you forgot is Leon "could have" changed things in game 4), but actually have no bearing on current reality.  I also suppose the fact that we beat teams by an average of 10.2 (i think, didn't look that up) during the regular season didn't play any role in Powe's very impressive stats. Are you realizing that the majority of the season (seeing as how he only saw 14+ minutes half way through January) he was playing against the opposition's bench? The bench is generally of a weaker skill level than the starters. Detroit has a 2/3 man bench....Maxiel, Stuckey, and if need be....Lindsay Hunter...aka they barely have a bench at all.

Meaning Powe has to play against Sheed/McDyess/Prince....none of which he matches up well against. At least Baby can use his 316 lbs. to move them around, and if BBD isn't picking up fouls I don't see how he is a liability on the floor at all.

Also, whomever said that 4 rebounds in 11 minutes doesn't get wins is crazy IMO. Just an FYI but 4 rebounds in 11 minutes is equivalent to 17.5 rebounds in 48 minutes ;)

Simply put I have zero respect for people (like you) who constantly second guess, and second guessing Doc is certainly no exception. You might as well be consistant...Do you second guess your choice of spouce? Your job/career path? Your choices in life? Possibly, but probably not. You (much like I do) probably stand behind your choices (right or wrong) with no regrets.

To conclude and come full circle, Powe or Davis.....I support the Doc's choice 100%.



wow this topic is clearly going nowhere now.
 
To answer your points, if you want to call them that, I am not second guessing myself at all, I'm second guessing Doc, which totally eliminates the entire last paragraph you wrote. Somewhere along the line you took what I said about Powe vs. Davis and compared it to me second guessing my "choices in life". Thats hilarious stuff right there.

I dont expect Doc to second guess himself playing Davis over Powe. That being said, I can second guess that all I want, along with many other people. Just look at the poll on the main page to see how many people would rather see Powe in there instead of Davis.

Basically what you are saying is as a fan I should just sit there and not get angry/upset or question decisions if i see something I don't agree with, but instead just accept it, keep my mouth shut, and trust a coach who hasent given me any reason to trust him yet. I trust the players, not the coach, and I know I don't stand alone in that statement. That being said, once Doc proves to me that he can coach a team to a championship, then I'll have some trust.

All the stats I listed about Powe and Davis are relevent, you would be ignorant to look at those stats and say that they are meaningless. Yes its the playoffs, and its higher intensity, but who is to say that Powe cannot step up in this series in contribute more than Davis can? It is worth a shot when you are down the ENTIRE GAME.

For you to say that Powe only played against other teams' benches is so totally inaccurate I won't even comment on that any further. You are really reaching now.

Powe is much more mobile on the floor than Davis is, and he can keep up with energy guys like Maxiell and put a body on McDyess. I havent seen Davis do that yet in the playoffs, so I'm not sure why everyone thinks hes a better matchup... I dont see him using his 316 lbs to move anyone around out there, especially McDyess who had his best game of the playoffs so far.

Powe played 8 minutes in Game 1 (a game we won)... his numbers per 48 = 24 points and 12 rebounds. obviously going by numbers per 48 minutes are never accurate so its pointless to use.

Edited.


You can sit on your hands and watch the game and after we lose say, "oh well, we tried our best and had fun out there. Get em next year Doc."
 
I'll watch the game and after we win I'll say, "Thank God they gave Leon Powe some minutes."

Please excuse me while I go second guess my choice of spouse. ;)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 09:54:46 AM by Edgar »