Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter

[jimmyt]

Ya Powe's numbers were not great during the one game he got his playing time during game 1. But when I'm watching the games and looking at the box score I'm not seeing anything good out of Davis. Why the short leash on Powe but not on Davis? We won the game that Powe got minutes in. We've lost two out of the three that he didnt get real minutes in. Obviously winning and losing doesnt solely depend on whether Powe plays or not, but I mean... Davis is not helping us win here. I'm done talking about this though.. im not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine. Whatever the right decision is, heres hoping Doc makes it.

[Chris]

Ya Powe's numbers were not great during the one game he got his playing time during game 1. But when I'm watching the games and looking at the box score I'm not seeing anything good out of Davis. Why the short leash on Powe but not on Davis? We won the game that Powe got minutes in. We've lost two out of the three that he didnt get real minutes in. Obviously winning and losing doesnt solely depend on whether Powe plays or not, but I mean... Davis is not helping us win here. I'm done talking about this though.. im not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine. Whatever the right decision is, heres hoping Doc makes it.

Again, because it has zero to do with the boxscore.  Doc has decided that neither of them is going to give them a ton of offensive production, but Davis has done a better job in the team defense.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Chris -- with all due respect, how can you argue the data doesn't matter, which you have in previous posts?  We keep track of statistics because they help us more objectively evaluate the game than what we see during the game, which can be biased for many reasons.  Now statistics are not the be all, end all, but you really think statistics can't tell you anything?

This thread is disgusting.

We all know Leon should have seen more PT last night, but if we win the game this thread doesn't exist IMO.

Nobody cuts Doc ANY slack.

Remember when BBD came up huge for us vs. the pistons in the regular season?

I didn't hear anybody complaining for more Powe then.

Don't get me wrong, I"m the biggest Leown Powe fan out here, but I stand by Doc and his decisions NO MATTER WHAT!

Baby looked lost last night so I expect Doc to bounce back with Leon at home tomorrow night, but whatever he decides i stand by his decision and i suggest you all do as well.

And dont call yourself the biggest leon powe fan out there if you dont get mad at Doc for not playing during a game in which he could have made a difference.

Ya we remember the game when Big Baby played well against the Pistons, the only reason people werent calling for Powe then is because he never saw a solid amount of minutes until january 16, 11 days after davis' game against detroit. Since then, he has done enough to earn playing time especially when we need energy off the bench. Doc failed to do that last night.

Did you even read what you wrote?

COULD have made a difference! COULD HAVE!

You second guess Doc for not making a move which carried no guarantee.

And you wanted him in for whom? BBD? Baby didn't even play that poorly....4 rebounds in 11 minutes.

Stop 2nd guessing your coach just because you are highly opinionated! It makes me want to throw up in my own mouth and I believe Leon Powe was this year's Most Improved Player!

Again, if we win that game you most likely stay mute and don't praise DOC for going with BBD, but BBD didn't have his best performance, so you call out Doc for not putting in Leon. You're simply no better than the media.

You've got to understand that a con for being such a deep team is that Doc has a lot of options. Since he has so many options he can't be right all the time. What's important is that he's right when it counts (i.e. in every swing game this post-season).

Feel free to call out:

Rondo - for not showing up/making poor decisions/turning down open shots
Posey - for throwing up that prayer (which Rip blocked) late in the 4th in crunch time - there were 9 seconds on that shot clock when he tossed that prayer up!
Ray Ray - for being afraid to shoot/missing 2 free throws in crunch time
Cassell - for showing us all how to successfully NOT hit a shot while at the same time not having a single assist in 16 minutes playing with 3 hall-of-famers to be

...but PLEASE for the love of Zeus' beard please don't call out Doc for playing these guys

Also, not to go all stat boy on you but Leon Powe didn't see a single second of PT on Jan 16th...His first 14+ minute game came on Jan 18th 

16th..18th.. you get the point...

obvious it is "could have"... its called second guessing because you dont know for sure. Some day when Doc makes a decent in-game decision, we may find out. I dont believe that I was the only one screaming to give Powe some minutes during the game though. Last time I checked 4 rebounds in 11 minutes dont win games.
I do want to go stat boy on you right now though so here we go.

During the regular season Powe averaged more minutes per game (14.5 to 13.7), points (7.9 to 4.5), rebounds (4.1 to 3.0), better ft% (.710 to .660), better fg% (.572 to .484)

Glen Davis played 942 minutes in the regular season and Powe played 810 = Davis played 132 more minutes than Powe did.

So how is it that Powe hit 137 free throws and Davis took a combined 150 hitting only 99 of them?

How is it that Powe has 18 more blocks than Davis did?

How is it that Powe has 442 rebounds to Davis' 208?

And finally, How is it that Powe has scored almost 400 more points than Davis?

The answer is simple really. He is better and should be in the game more often than Glen Davis.

Jimmy,

That's a TP for you. 

I just wanted to add that in the 36 games in which Powe played 10 or more minutes during the season, he averaged 11.1 pts and 5.8 rebs per game on 19.8 minutes per game.

In the games where he's played over 20 minutes (16 games), Powe averaged 16.4 pts and 7.8 rebounds per game on 26.9 minutes per game.

Powe's averages are down from these numbers in the playoffs but more shots should go, and do, to the big three and deservedly so.

This isn't the regular season, and Powe has played too little in the playoffs (especially against Detroit, who are completely different from the other two teams) to make any sort of argument based on stats.

So all we have to go in is speculation based on how he looked in the few minutes he got, and how his skills match up against Detroit. 

Like I have been saying for a long, long time, I don't think they match up well.  I think he is a horrible matchup against Playoffs Detroit (much different team than regular season Detroit).  For the record, I don't think Davis is a good matchup either, but he is a better matchup than Powe is IMO. 

Therefore, my argument is that Doc is not an idiot for not putting Powe in, and he is not holding Powe back.  He is just using his analysis of his player's strength to determine which player gives them the best chance to win.  If you don't agree with it, fine.  Some of us do agree with it though.  And we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Roy Hobbs]

Ya Powe's numbers were not great during the one game he got his playing time during game 1. But when I'm watching the games and looking at the box score I'm not seeing anything good out of Davis. Why the short leash on Powe but not on Davis? We won the game that Powe got minutes in. We've lost two out of the three that he didnt get real minutes in. Obviously winning and losing doesnt solely depend on whether Powe plays or not, but I mean... Davis is not helping us win here. I'm done talking about this though.. im not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine. Whatever the right decision is, heres hoping Doc makes it.

Again, because it has zero to do with the boxscore.  Doc has decided that neither of them is going to give them a ton of offensive production, but Davis has done a better job in the team defense.

As said in another thread, that may be true, but the numbers aren't backing that up.  The team scores more and gives up fewer points when Powe is on the floor, both in the playoffs and the regular season.

I've got to think that Powe is a more mobile defender who matches up better with McDyess.  Powe is also a much better offensive rebounder than Davis; creating extra possessions on offense is naturally going to limit the number of chances Detroit has to score.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Chris - If you were right, than Powe should have played in Game 3.  In Game 2, Powe had 2 rebounds and 0 points in 2:33.  Davis got 6 minutes and had ZERO rebounds and 1 point.

So if your logic about "chances" is correct, shouldn't we have seen Powe in Game 3 since Davis "blew" his chance in Game 2?

I am just using the same logic you used for pulling Powe for Davis. . . .

The reason Powe isn't "earning time over Davis" is because Powe was given his shot, and did not hold on to it (for the time being). 

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 (which is what you would expect someone in that position would play in the ECF, because Garnett should be playing 40 minutes, and Perk and PJ are splitting the Center minutes), and he didn't do much of anything offensively, and missed numerous rotations defensively.  He was then given a chance the next game, and missed a couple assignments right away, so Doc pulled him.

I expect he will get another shot, but it is not accurate to say that he was not given a chance.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Great point. . TP for Hobbs. . .

Ya Powe's numbers were not great during the one game he got his playing time during game 1. But when I'm watching the games and looking at the box score I'm not seeing anything good out of Davis. Why the short leash on Powe but not on Davis? We won the game that Powe got minutes in. We've lost two out of the three that he didnt get real minutes in. Obviously winning and losing doesnt solely depend on whether Powe plays or not, but I mean... Davis is not helping us win here. I'm done talking about this though.. im not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine. Whatever the right decision is, heres hoping Doc makes it.

Again, because it has zero to do with the boxscore.  Doc has decided that neither of them is going to give them a ton of offensive production, but Davis has done a better job in the team defense.

As said in another thread, that may be true, but the numbers aren't backing that up.  The team scores more and gives up fewer points when Powe is on the floor, both in the playoffs and the regular season.

I've got to think that Powe is a more mobile defender who matches up better with McDyess.  Powe is also a much better offensive rebounder than Davis; creating extra possessions on offense is naturally going to limit the number of chances Detroit has to score.

[Chris]

Chris - If you were right, than Powe should have played in Game 3.  In Game 2, Powe had 2 rebounds and 0 points in 2:33.  Davis got 6 minutes and had ZERO rebounds and 1 point.

So if your logic about "chances" is correct, shouldn't we have seen Powe in Game 3 since Davis "blew" his chance in Game 2?

I am just using the same logic you used for pulling Powe for Davis. . . .

The reason Powe isn't "earning time over Davis" is because Powe was given his shot, and did not hold on to it (for the time being). 

Powe played 8 minutes in game 1 (which is what you would expect someone in that position would play in the ECF, because Garnett should be playing 40 minutes, and Perk and PJ are splitting the Center minutes), and he didn't do much of anything offensively, and missed numerous rotations defensively.  He was then given a chance the next game, and missed a couple assignments right away, so Doc pulled him.

I expect he will get another shot, but it is not accurate to say that he was not given a chance.

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

[MattD]

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

[Chris]

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

[WedmanIsMyHero]

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

[Chris]

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I am saying it is nowhere near valid.  Feel free to run some statistical analysis though, and prove me wrong.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

I think on this and the "Doc Rivers" thread, people have put together some compelling data, bother for the regular season and playoffs.  I will poke around after work tonight and see if I can put together more.  I suspect we may have to agree to disagree though.

No -- the point is that the data suggests the Celtics defense actually performs better when Powe is in the game.  Are you saying that data is incorrect?

Doc was looking for one main thing...defensive rotations.  Powe did not make them in game 1 and 2.  Davis has been making them in games 2-4.

Hmm, and we lost two of three in games 2-4.

I'm looking for one main thing, too: wins.

So you are saying Powe would have made the rest of the team actually play decently?

I am saying it is nowhere near valid.  Feel free to run some statistical analysis though, and prove me wrong.

[wdleehi]

Play three big men. 



Use Scali (the best defender and most consistent defender out of the other three) as the 4th/emergency big man.  It is his perfect role.  No more then 10 minutes in a game.  Just play good team defense. 

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Brown's numbers are way down in the Detroit series and he looks tired.  Do you think he can handle the load?

Many other good teams(Pistons with Maxiell, every Lakers bench player is under 30, not the Spurs. . but they are the Spurs) out there goes with youth and energy on their bench for a reason.  Now it might just be the Celtics younger guys are just not good enough for that, mandating playing a guy like Brown. 

Play three big men. 



Use Scali (the best defender and most consistent defender out of the other three) as the 4th/emergency big man.  It is his perfect role.  No more then 10 minutes in a game.  Just play good team defense. 

[wdleehi]

Brown's numbers are way down in the Detroit series and he looks tired.  Do you think he can handle the load?

Many other good teams(Pistons with Maxiell, every Lakers bench player is under 30, not the Spurs. . but they are the Spurs) out there goes with youth and energy on their bench for a reason.  Now it might just be the Celtics younger guys are just not good enough for that, mandating playing a guy like Brown. 

Play three big men. 



Use Scali (the best defender and most consistent defender out of the other three) as the 4th/emergency big man.  It is his perfect role.  No more then 10 minutes in a game.  Just play good team defense. 

This is what we are ignoring.  Those guys are playing better.  They have played the same roll or bigger (when injuries happen) all season. 

Powe's and Davis's rolls have switched and changed all season long.  They are not as well prepared.