Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter

[Chris]

Just to confirm what I was saying, here is Doc talking about Powe's trouble with the rotations, and how good Perk, Garnett, PJ, and even Baby are at rotating compared to Powe (start listening at about the 12 minute mark).

http://audio.weei.com/m/19948987/doc_rivers.htm

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Thanks for passing that along -- I very much like when these discussions involve actual evidence.  I totally believe you on the rotations -- I side with John Hollinger of ESPN in believing the other upsides to Powe outweigh his rotation troubles.

EDIT Part 1: Doc also said we will see more of BBD in Detroit.  He gets out to shooters "quicker".

EDIT Part 2: Doc recognized that the rotation "thing" about him started "years ago" but he "could care less about it".  He said "it's the knowledge of the coach.  Half the time you don't have the time to explain, or don't care to".  Here is the difference here between Doc and someone like Francona.  Doc said in his discussion on WEEI, "What I know that *clearly* the fans don't, and that's defensive rotations".  Seriously?  Yes, we are not experts the way Doc is.  Obviously.  He is a professional.  But that is a bit condescending.  You don't hear someone like Francona directly insulting the Boston fans.  Francona recognizes that some Boston fans are really pretty knowledgeable and it is their passion, rather than their ignorance, that is often the problem.

Just to confirm what I was saying, here is Doc talking about Powe's trouble with the rotations, and how good Perk, Garnett, PJ, and even Baby are at rotating compared to Powe (start listening at about the 12 minute mark).

http://audio.weei.com/m/19948987/doc_rivers.htm

[Chris]

Thanks for passing that along -- I very much like when these discussions involve actual evidence.  I totally believe you on the rotations -- I side with John Hollinger of ESPN in believing the other upsides to Powe outweigh his rotation troubles.

Just to confirm what I was saying, here is Doc talking about Powe's trouble with the rotations, and how good Perk, Garnett, PJ, and even Baby are at rotating compared to Powe (start listening at about the 12 minute mark).

http://audio.weei.com/m/19948987/doc_rivers.htm

I agree with this in general...except that for some reason, his "other upsides" have been lacking.  In the majority of the games he has not been nearly as effective on the offensive side of the ball, or rebounding as he was in the regular season.

There are lots of theories for why, but I personally just think it is because interior defense steps up about 5 notches in the playoffs, so it makes it so much tougher to get anything done in there...especially when you are undersized.  He did much of his damage in the regular season, when the defenses weren't rotating to him off of plays by perimeter players.  So far in the playoffs, those rotations have been there.

So if he is not giving you a lot more offensively, than the defense stands out that much more.

I also would argue that because every time up the court is so much more important, that changes the philosophy.  Defense is MUCH more important than offense in the playoffs.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

That's very reasonable.  But while I very much think teams that follow Hollinger-like philosophies are better-off, basketball is not exactly paint-by-numbers.  Sometimes you need energy and someone who will get you loose balls.  Now that may not be Powe every night, but my one concern with the emerging Big 3 + Brown and Rondo lineup is that in the 4th quarter, when all have been playing quite a bit, it is a really SLOW lineup.

But if Brown is outplaying Perkins for those minutes. . and it is not like Perkins is Mr. Speedy anyways. . . .

Thanks for passing that along -- I very much like when these discussions involve actual evidence.  I totally believe you on the rotations -- I side with John Hollinger of ESPN in believing the other upsides to Powe outweigh his rotation troubles.

Just to confirm what I was saying, here is Doc talking about Powe's trouble with the rotations, and how good Perk, Garnett, PJ, and even Baby are at rotating compared to Powe (start listening at about the 12 minute mark).

http://audio.weei.com/m/19948987/doc_rivers.htm

I agree with this in general...except that for some reason, his "other upsides" have been lacking.  In the majority of the games he has not been nearly as effective on the offensive side of the ball, or rebounding as he was in the regular season.

There are lots of theories for why, but I personally just think it is because interior defense steps up about 5 notches in the playoffs, so it makes it so much tougher to get anything done in there...especially when you are undersized.  He did much of his damage in the regular season, when the defenses weren't rotating to him off of plays by perimeter players.  So far in the playoffs, those rotations have been there.

So if he is not giving you a lot more offensively, than the defense stands out that much more.

I also would argue that because every time up the court is so much more important, that changes the philosophy.  Defense is MUCH more important than offense in the playoffs.

[vinnie]

I also think, outside of Powe, to many bench guys have to long of a leash.



Specifically Tony Allen and Davis. 

I wouldn't agree with that in general...but for last night, it seemed to be the case.

I would also throw Eddie House in there as well.  He has been completely useless in the first two games of this series. 

I know I have been a Doc supporter, and I still am to a point...but he really needs to get a faster trigger finger with some of these guys.

Doc's MO from Day 1 has been to have a slow trigger finger.  Why should that change now?  It took him 12 games to figure out he needed to get a look at House.  How long will it take him to figure out he needs to get back to Sam?  Doc is why it took this team 14 games to win the first two series against inferior competition.

[Chris]

I also think, outside of Powe, to many bench guys have to long of a leash.



Specifically Tony Allen and Davis. 

I wouldn't agree with that in general...but for last night, it seemed to be the case.

I would also throw Eddie House in there as well.  He has been completely useless in the first two games of this series. 

I know I have been a Doc supporter, and I still am to a point...but he really needs to get a faster trigger finger with some of these guys.

Doc's MO from Day 1 has been to have a slow trigger finger.  Why should that change now?  It took him 12 games to figure out he needed to get a look at House.  How long will it take him to figure out he needs to get back to Sam?  Doc is why it took this team 14 games to win the first two series against inferior competition.

Listen to the interview I posted earlier from this morning on WEEI.  He said that Sam would be playing.

[expobear]

I am actually not sure about the short leash thing.  Doc's biggest liability as a coach seems to be his manic substitution patterns.  You are saying he should do *more* of that?

I also think, outside of Powe, to many bench guys have to long of a leash.



Specifically Tony Allen and Davis. 

I wouldn't agree with that in general...but for last night, it seemed to be the case.

I would also throw Eddie House in there as well.  He has been completely useless in the first two games of this series. 

I know I have been a Doc supporter, and I still am to a point...but he really needs to get a faster trigger finger with some of these guys.

I am saying that the roleplayers on this team are in many cases interchangable, with each of them having different strengths and weaknesses.  In the playoffs, when every possession is so important, you cannot stick with someone who is ineffective too long, when there is someone else on the bench who is just as good, and may be able to make a difference.

Now don't get me wrong, this is not the same thing with the main rotation guys (Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Perkins, Rondo, and Posey), who all bring so much to the table, you need for them to play through it, because you simply can't win without them.  But the rest of the guys, all have at least one other person, who can be just as effective, if not more on any given night.

In the playoff games where Powe has played 10 minutes or more, he's averaged about 7.2 and 4 on about 19 minutes per game. These are close to his season average for pts and rebounds. In the other games where he has played less than 10 minutes, Powe has averaged about 4.5 minutes a game over 8 games with 2 DNPs.  If Powe were allowed to play for 10-12 minutes a game without worrying about being pulled for a so-called defensive lapse, he will get you some points, some rebounds and a charge or two. If Powe knew this to be his role, he would play freely and his positives would outweigh any negatives, perceived or otherwise. 

Rivers substitutions reminds me of Don Nelson's many years back with the Warriors during his first coaching stint.  Nelson would put a player in (names escape me at this point), player would miss a shot and Nelson would pull him for 3 or 4 games, literally. If this is River's style, then I don't agree with it. I think Powe has proven what he is capable of doing both during the regular season and in the playoffs when given ample time to do what he can do best....bring energy, points, rebounds and charges off the bench.  I haven't seen too much of the playoffs recently because of Powe not getting off the bench, but if Powe was pulled for picking up the wrong guy on a 2 on 1 break, Rivers is crazy.  There is no right guy to pick up.

If I were Leon, I would look to get traded next season because he can be more than a itty bitty role player in River's rotation elsewhere in the league.  I'm not sure Powe can do anymore that what he's done with his opportunities and yet, see his playing time become non-existent.  If Rivers and the Celtics win the NBA championship, then my hats off to Rivers, for you can't complain about any of his coaching moves during the playoffs, then. But I think playing Powe more would have made the road much easier for him. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

In the playoff games where Powe has played 10 minutes or more, he's averaged about 7.2 and 4 on about 19 minutes per game. These are close to his season average for pts and rebounds. In the other games where he has played less than 10 minutes, Powe has averaged about 4.5 minutes a game over 8 games with 2 DNPs.  If Powe were allowed to play for 10-12 minutes a game without worrying about being pulled for a so-called defensive lapse, he will get you some points, some rebounds and a charge or two. If Powe knew this to be his role, he would play freely and his positives would outweigh any negatives, perceived or otherwise. 

"So-called defensive lapses"? They're quite evident... don't fault a coach for knowing something that you apparently can't see. And wouldn't leaving Powe for big minutes when he's producing and taking him out when he's not actually fairly good coaching from his part? When Powe comes to play, Doc rewards him. That's his role as an end of the bench player. If Powe can't be ready to do the little things consistently, he's of not much use to us.

Rivers substitutions reminds me of Don Nelson's many years back with the Warriors during his first coaching stint.  Nelson would put a player in (names escape me at this point), player would miss a shot and Nelson would pull him for 3 or 4 games, literally. If this is River's style, then I don't agree with it. I think Powe has proven what he is capable of doing both during the regular season and in the playoffs when given ample time to do what he can do best....bring energy, points, rebounds and charges off the bench.  I haven't seen too much of the playoffs recently because of Powe not getting off the bench, but if Powe was pulled for picking up the wrong guy on a 2 on 1 break, Rivers is crazy.  There is no right guy to pick up.

Yet, Rivers is obviously not doing what Don Nelso does. Time and time again Rivers has said that he could care less about players missing shots, as long as they are doing the correct play and doing things the right way. And that's how it should always be. And stop twisting the facts, it wasn't a 2 on 1 break. I guess Pierce is invisible... Powe did a mistake that he has routinely made this year, how can you trust someone that keeps repeating the same mistake in a team that is so reliant on its defense? Powe has gotten PLENTY of chances during the playoffs, he wasted most of them.

[expobear]

In the playoff games where Powe has played 10 minutes or more, he's averaged about 7.2 and 4 on about 19 minutes per game. These are close to his season average for pts and rebounds. In the other games where he has played less than 10 minutes, Powe has averaged about 4.5 minutes a game over 8 games with 2 DNPs.  If Powe were allowed to play for 10-12 minutes a game without worrying about being pulled for a so-called defensive lapse, he will get you some points, some rebounds and a charge or two. If Powe knew this to be his role, he would play freely and his positives would outweigh any negatives, perceived or otherwise. 

"So-called defensive lapses"? They're quite evident... don't fault a coach for knowing something that you apparently can't see. And wouldn't leaving Powe for big minutes when he's producing and taking him out when he's not actually fairly good coaching from his part? When Powe comes to play, Doc rewards him. That's his role as an end of the bench player. If Powe can't be ready to do the little things consistently, he's of not much use to us.

Rivers substitutions reminds me of Don Nelson's many years back with the Warriors during his first coaching stint.  Nelson would put a player in (names escape me at this point), player would miss a shot and Nelson would pull him for 3 or 4 games, literally. If this is River's style, then I don't agree with it. I think Powe has proven what he is capable of doing both during the regular season and in the playoffs when given ample time to do what he can do best....bring energy, points, rebounds and charges off the bench.  I haven't seen too much of the playoffs recently because of Powe not getting off the bench, but if Powe was pulled for picking up the wrong guy on a 2 on 1 break, Rivers is crazy.  There is no right guy to pick up.

Yet, Rivers is obviously not doing what Don Nelso does. Time and time again Rivers has said that he could care less about players missing shots, as long as they are doing the correct play and doing things the right way. And that's how it should always be. And stop twisting the facts, it wasn't a 2 on 1 break. I guess Pierce is invisible... Powe did a mistake that he has routinely made this year, how can you trust someone that keeps repeating the same mistake in a team that is so reliant on its defense? Powe has gotten PLENTY of chances during the playoffs, he wasted most of them.

Powe's defensive "lapses" don't warrant him playing 3 or 4 minutes a game.  Bottom line, he gets very little respect from Rivers and I hope he's gone next year, for the sake of his career.

[BudweiserCeltic]

His rebounding rate is also down, which is really his main purpose when inserted... that tells me it's not purely a "defensive lapse" problem. He has been wildly inconsistent in this regard.

[guava_wrench]

In the playoff games where Powe has played 10 minutes or more, he's averaged about 7.2 and 4 on about 19 minutes per game. These are close to his season average for pts and rebounds. In the other games where he has played less than 10 minutes, Powe has averaged about 4.5 minutes a game over 8 games with 2 DNPs.  If Powe were allowed to play for 10-12 minutes a game without worrying about being pulled for a so-called defensive lapse, he will get you some points, some rebounds and a charge or two. If Powe knew this to be his role, he would play freely and his positives would outweigh any negatives, perceived or otherwise.

"So-called defensive lapses"? They're quite evident... don't fault a coach for knowing something that you apparently can't see. And wouldn't leaving Powe for big minutes when he's producing and taking him out when he's not actually fairly good coaching from his part? When Powe comes to play, Doc rewards him. That's his role as an end of the bench player. If Powe can't be ready to do the little things consistently, he's of not much use to us.

Rivers substitutions reminds me of Don Nelson's many years back with the Warriors during his first coaching stint.  Nelson would put a player in (names escape me at this point), player would miss a shot and Nelson would pull him for 3 or 4 games, literally. If this is River's style, then I don't agree with it. I think Powe has proven what he is capable of doing both during the regular season and in the playoffs when given ample time to do what he can do best....bring energy, points, rebounds and charges off the bench.  I haven't seen too much of the playoffs recently because of Powe not getting off the bench, but if Powe was pulled for picking up the wrong guy on a 2 on 1 break, Rivers is crazy.  There is no right guy to pick up.

Yet, Rivers is obviously not doing what Don Nelso does. Time and time again Rivers has said that he could care less about players missing shots, as long as they are doing the correct play and doing things the right way. And that's how it should always be. And stop twisting the facts, it wasn't a 2 on 1 break. I guess Pierce is invisible... Powe did a mistake that he has routinely made this year, how can you trust someone that keeps repeating the same mistake in a team that is so reliant on its defense? Powe has gotten PLENTY of chances during the playoffs, he wasted most of them.

Powe's defensive "lapses" don't warrant him playing 3 or 4 minutes a game.  Bottom line, he gets very little respect from Rivers and I hope he's gone next year, for the sake of his career.

You might have a point -- his career could be better on a non-championship contender if he can't play the defense needed to win it all.

These Powe threads have become so silly.

I could imagine if we lost a series due to poor PG play. The "Play Pruitt" nut jobs would show their faces again.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

It seems like this all comes down to empirical questions and we tend to argue without data much of the time. 

BudweiserCeltic and other Powe critics -- you argue over and over again that Powe has "gotten his chances", but you never respond to people's submissions of data showing he *has* proven himself when he has gotten the minutes.  I am talking about his top-30 PER in the regular season and a PER higher than the Celtics other bench bigs (and Perkins) in the playoffs.  PER takes into account things like rebounding rate, etc.

Other people (myself included): Playing Powe might not be necessary for the Celtics to win the title.  Given Powe's personal story of triumph and his extraordinary PER, I think if he leaves the Celtics and gets consistent minutes he will have a long and successful career.

On the second point, only time can tell.  On the first point, BudweiserCeltic and other people that don't think Powe should play -- what systematic data would you cite to show that?

In the playoff games where Powe has played 10 minutes or more, he's averaged about 7.2 and 4 on about 19 minutes per game. These are close to his season average for pts and rebounds. In the other games where he has played less than 10 minutes, Powe has averaged about 4.5 minutes a game over 8 games with 2 DNPs.  If Powe were allowed to play for 10-12 minutes a game without worrying about being pulled for a so-called defensive lapse, he will get you some points, some rebounds and a charge or two. If Powe knew this to be his role, he would play freely and his positives would outweigh any negatives, perceived or otherwise.

"So-called defensive lapses"? They're quite evident... don't fault a coach for knowing something that you apparently can't see. And wouldn't leaving Powe for big minutes when he's producing and taking him out when he's not actually fairly good coaching from his part? When Powe comes to play, Doc rewards him. That's his role as an end of the bench player. If Powe can't be ready to do the little things consistently, he's of not much use to us.

Rivers substitutions reminds me of Don Nelson's many years back with the Warriors during his first coaching stint.  Nelson would put a player in (names escape me at this point), player would miss a shot and Nelson would pull him for 3 or 4 games, literally. If this is River's style, then I don't agree with it. I think Powe has proven what he is capable of doing both during the regular season and in the playoffs when given ample time to do what he can do best....bring energy, points, rebounds and charges off the bench.  I haven't seen too much of the playoffs recently because of Powe not getting off the bench, but if Powe was pulled for picking up the wrong guy on a 2 on 1 break, Rivers is crazy.  There is no right guy to pick up.

Yet, Rivers is obviously not doing what Don Nelso does. Time and time again Rivers has said that he could care less about players missing shots, as long as they are doing the correct play and doing things the right way. And that's how it should always be. And stop twisting the facts, it wasn't a 2 on 1 break. I guess Pierce is invisible... Powe did a mistake that he has routinely made this year, how can you trust someone that keeps repeating the same mistake in a team that is so reliant on its defense? Powe has gotten PLENTY of chances during the playoffs, he wasted most of them.

[expobear]

"So-called defensive lapses"? They're quite evident... don't fault a coach for knowing something that you apparently can't see. And wouldn't leaving Powe for big minutes when he's producing and taking him out when he's not actually fairly good coaching from his part? When Powe comes to play, Doc rewards him. That's his role as an end of the bench player. If Powe can't be ready to do the little things consistently, he's of not much use to us.




When it comes to Powe, Rivers doesn't know how or when to use him. Hell, it took Rivers half the season and an injury to Garnett to even consider using Powe.  So, when it comes to Powe, no Rivers, IMHO, doesn't know what he's doing and as far as screwing with Powe's mind, he's doing a great job of that. Is that great coaching...maybe in your playbook, budweiser. The thing is, Powe does do the little things consistently.  You and Chris and the other Powe bashers always toe the Rivers line of Powe not switching on the rotations quickly enough.  Well, Powe draws fouls, takes charges and can score points inside when given the chance. I think the Celtics can win without Powe but I do think it will be easier with Powe than without him.

[BASSTHUMPER]

powe pimpin better see sum floor time

[jimmyt]

I'm sorry Powe critics but Leon Powe should have seen meaningful minutes during last nights game.
Anyone who watched the game saw that we had no firepower or spark at all. Powe is a physical player and can get in there and knock bodies around like Detroit was doing.

Also, am I the only one who thinks he could match up really well against a guy like Maxiell?? Maxiell and Powe seem like kind of the same player. I think Powe can add that hustle and intensity that Maxiell adds to the Pistons.

There is no reason that Glen Davis deserves more playing time than Powe. Glen Davis played a great game against the Pistons in the regular season, maybe Doc is praying that will happen again but he is wasting his time.

I'm not saying bench Davis, but why cant they both play? Why is it one or the other? The same goes for Cassell and House. Go with the hot hand if you have the assets to do so..

But hey, lets go down 10 and then exchange baskets for the rest of the game and not do anything to improve our poor shooting. Thats always fun to watch too. Let me be the first to say Fire Doc if we do not get out of this round.