Celticsblog fantasy bball keeper league (Draft Thread)

[indeedproceed]

Second, next time you discover something... like the scoring system advantages / disadvantages, please keep it to yourself until after the draft.

tx, Mk

Why keep it to myself?

Because it makes guys like Carmelo Anthony look a whole lot more awesome than most other leagues.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Simple.

If u have just looked at the scoring system then I am sure others have yet to look at it.

This is a distinct advantage to those of us who have looked it.

- Mk

Alright, but assuming you looked at the scoring system before the draft, as opposed to joining mid-draft like me, why wouldn't you mention that it's flawed? Especially if this is going to be a keeper league? Who wants to play for four years in a league that undervalues point guards?

I can go either way on this. I've still got two of last year's top-20 guys, and there are 60,000 other Fantasy Leagues I can join anyway.

And to any other knuckleheads like me, baskteballmonster.com has a feature where you can input your leagues scoring system and see players 06-07 total and per game Fantasy values. Probably more valuable than the current best available list?

Edit: Link

[The Walker Wiggle]

Alright, moving on, I select Corey Maggette.

[CelticsDynasty5]

I told everyone MULTIPLE times to check the scoring system.

It does not overvalue fgm. Remember that each fg attempt is -.5 pts so even if you make a fg you only get .7 + the pts scored, but if you miss, you lose -.5 pts. It comes out to average out at like .455 which is roughly the league percentage. It rewards players who score efficently.

It doesn't punish bad ft shooters because even if a poor ft shooter shoots 50 percent from the line, that is like shooting 50 percent from the field which is good. However it rewards players who shoot well from the ft line, which in effect does punish bad ft shooters since they don't get bonus points off ft shots.

Also in terms of 3's it evens out because you get an extra point per 3 pt shot attempt due to the fact 3's are worth 1 more pt than 2 pt attempts. Just like in real NBA it's a risk/reward to shoot 3's.

An assist basacally equals a 2 pt shot when you consider that you don't get any negative points off for assists that dont turn into baskets but you do get off negative points off for a missed shot.

I feel like the system is much more realistic than other fantasy leagues. Players like Carmello Anthony ARE top 10-15 players in the NBA, yet in other fantasy leagues he isn't that good.

It does slightly undervalue PG's to some extent, but there are still PG's in the top 10 such as Arenas. Nash/Chris Paul still score a good amount of points too.

Looking back on it the only thing I might change would be to bring assists up from 1.75 to 2. If everyone wants to do this I will do it. However I don't think anything else is wrong with the system at all.

Basacally if you draft on who is good in real life, you will do well in this league.

[Green17]

Alright, moving on, I select Corey Maggette.

Great.  I'll take.....GINOBILI!!!!!! (to quote the Chuckster). 

[AllabouttheGREEN]

I have no words to describe Walker Wiggle's pick.   Man, I'm so irritated and was just waiting to pounce on him on my next pick.  His #'s should be excellent as the Clips greatest scoring threat until EB returns.  Arrgh

[The Walker Wiggle]

I told everyone MULTIPLE times to check the scoring system.

Absolutely, and that's fair. I guess that, because I joined in mid-first round, I was late to the conversation, But I wanted to make sure no one else was caught unawares. I hope that's not poor etiquette.

I feel like the system is much more realistic than other fantasy leagues. Players like Carmello Anthony ARE top 10-15 players in the NBA, yet in other fantasy leagues he isn't that good.

But I respectfully disagree with a lot of your points, if you look at the Top 20 by your scoring system there are only five guards. This league is going to slant heavily towards F/C play. (And centers already have inflated value simply because we're starting two of them.) There aren't point guardS in the Top 10. There is one, Arenas - a score first point (because FGM are too heavily valued). (Do you think A.I. was the 2nd best PG in the league last year?) Maybe (maybe) Melo is a top 10 player, but so are Nash and Kidd. They're both sub-Top 20 by your count. (Deron Williams and Billups are sub-Top 40.)

But I don't want to come off as sour: as I'm really not. So that's the last I'll say on the subject. I would like to know where the "Best Available" list posted on the first page comes from? Is it Roto league?

P.S. Go Sox!!!!!!!

P.P.S. Sorry to poach your pick AllabouttheGREEN. But please accept a TP as condolence.

[indeedproceed]

I took it off of ESPN somwhere (the BPA)

[iRONLiON]

For what it's worth, I think we should increase assists from 1.75 to 2.  Walker makes some good points.  I really think that the scoring system is a good one, and it's a more accurate model of the actual NBA.  That said, if Kidd and Nash and sub-20 players, than the re has to be a flaw in the scoring system.  It's a small one, but it is there.  Now there's a million reasons to not make this change.  I know that the system was clearly stated from the start.  I wonder though if anyone would have drafted any different had assists been worth slightly more from the start.  I think the benefit of a more accurate system outweighs the cost.

Or I can just shut my [dang] mouth. 

Sorry if it's bad form to bring this up mid-draft. 

[CelticsDynasty5]

I told everyone MULTIPLE times to check the scoring system.

Absolutely, and that's fair. I guess that, because I joined in mid-first round, I was late to the conversation, But I wanted to make sure no one else was caught unawares. I hope that's not poor etiquette.

I feel like the system is much more realistic than other fantasy leagues. Players like Carmello Anthony ARE top 10-15 players in the NBA, yet in other fantasy leagues he isn't that good.

But I respectfully disagree with a lot of your points, if you look at the Top 20 by your scoring system there are only five guards. This league is going to slant heavily towards F/C play. (And centers already have inflated value simply because we're starting two of them.) There aren't point guardS in the Top 10. There is one, Arenas - a score first point (because FGM are too heavily valued). (Do you think A.I. was the 2nd best PG in the league last year?) Maybe (maybe) Melo is a top 10 player, but so are Nash and Kidd. They're both sub-Top 20 by your count. (Deron Williams and Billups are sub-Top 40.)

But I don't want to come off as sour: as I'm really not. So that's the last I'll say on the subject. I would like to know where the "Best Available" list posted on the first page comes from? Is it Roto league?

P.S. Go Sox!!!!!!!

P.P.S. Sorry to poach your pick AllabouttheGREEN. But please accept a TP as condolence.

First off your math is wrong. Nash averaged 43.26 fantasy points per game last year. Jermaine O'neal averaged 43.2 fantasy points per game last year.

Remember you are comparing fowards+centers to guards, so obviously there will be more fowards+centers than guards because it's 2x more.

There were 7 guards in the top 20 last year, Wade, Kobe, Arenas, Tmac, Iverson, Baron, Nash. Also VC played Guard/Foward in the league so he could be counted as 8. Josh Smith, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, Ray Allen, and Jermaine O'neal were all in the next 5 spots as well and 4 of those 5 play guards (Josh Smith is listed as a sg/sf).

Arenas was actually hurt by the fgm stat because he shot a poor percentage. He did balance it out because he shot a lot of 3's, so it wasnt as bad as his fg percentage indictated (like in real life) but it still did not help him. Arenas was helped by the ft stat because he shoots well from the ft line, just like in the real nba.

Kidd was not sub 40, he was ranked 24th, and Deron Williams was bearly sub 40, he was 41st overall (he had a good year but far from great, remember he exploaded in the playoffs even more than he did in the regular season).

Like I said, looking back on it, assists were slightly undervalued, but that is the only fault I see in the system. Aside from that it is pretty much perfect. Remember that Big men are the players who are the most important to a team not guards. Just like in real life, this system shows that as well (granted there are plenty of guards who are very valueable as well, which shows up just because in general right now there are more great guards than big men.)

[The Walker Wiggle]

First off your math is wrong. Nash averaged 43.26 fantasy points per game last year. Jermaine O'neal averaged 43.2 fantasy points per game last year.

I didn't do the math for the Top 20 I posted; I used basketballmonster.com. But I went back and did the scores for O'Neal and Nash out by hand, and my original results look good. (If this is a philosophical difference that's fine, but I'd like to be clear about the facts and numbers.)

J. O'Neal

Points 1,339 x 1 = 1, 339
REB 661 x 1.5 = 991.5
AST 167 x 1.75 = 292.25
BLK 182 x 2.5 = 455
STL 50 x 2.75 = 137.5
FGA 1,141 x -.5 = -570.5
FGM 498 x 1.2 = 597.6
FTA 447 x -.5 = -223.5
FTM 343 x 1 = 343
TO 203 x -1.5 = 304.5

Total = 3,057.35

/69 = 44.31

S. Nash

Points 1,412 x 1 = 1,412
REB 269 x 1.5 = 403.5
AST 884 x 1.75 = 1,547
BLK 6 x 2.5 = 15
STL 57 x 2.75 = 156.75
FGA 971 x -.5 = -485.5
FGM 517 x 1.2 = 620.4
FTA 247 x -.5 = -123.5
FTM 222 x 1 = 222
TO 287 x 1.5 = -430.5

Total= 3,337.15

/76 Games played = 43.9 Fantasy Points per Game

If the top 20 you've been referencing this whole time is wrong, would you want to reconsider the scoring system?

P.S.

Kidd was not sub 40, he was ranked 24th

I never said he was. I did say he was sub-Top 20. And IMO, he should be top 10 and Nash and Kidd ought to rank ahead of Bosh, Anthony, Davis and Iverson. Do you disagree?

[CelticsDynasty5]

First off your math is wrong. Nash averaged 43.26 fantasy points per game last year. Jermaine O'neal averaged 43.2 fantasy points per game last year.

I didn't do the math for the Top 20 I posted; I used basketballmonster.com. But I went back and did the scores for O'Neal and Nash out by hand, and my original results look good. (If this is a philosophical difference that's fine, but I'd like to be clear about the facts and numbers.)

J. O'Neal

Points 1,339 x 1 = 1, 339
REB 661 x 1.5 = 991.5
AST 167 x 1.75 = 292.25
BLK 182 x 2.5 = 455
STL 50 x 2.75 = 137.5
FGA 1,141 x -.5 = -570.5
FGM 498 x 1.2 = 597.6
FTA 447 x -.5 = -223.5
FTM 343 x 1 = 343
TO 203 x -1.5 = 304.5

Total = 3,057.35

/69 = 44.31

S. Nash

Points 1,412 x 1 = 1,412
REB 269 x 1.5 = 403.5
AST 884 x 1.75 = 1,547
BLK 6 x 2.5 = 15
STL 57 x 2.75 = 156.75
FGA 971 x -.5 = -485.5
FGM 517 x 1.2 = 620.4
FTA 247 x -.5 = -123.5
FTM 222 x 1 = 222
TO 287 x 1.5 = -430.5

Total= 3,337.15

/76 Games played = 43.9 Fantasy Points per Game

If the top 20 you've been referencing this whole time is wrong, would you want to reconsider the scoring system?

P.S.

Kidd was not sub 40, he was ranked 24th

I never said he was. I did say he was sub-Top 20. And IMO, he should be top 10 and Nash and Kidd ought to rank ahead of Bosh, Anthony, Davis and Iverson. Do you disagree?

Yahoo has slightly different totals for both. Jermaine O'neal scored 2997.6 fantasy points last year not 3,057 and Nash scored 3287.9 not 3,337.15.

And I would say Anthony/Bosh were better than Jason Kidd last year. I do think Nash was better than both Anthony/Bosh though, you can't have everything perfect. Like I said I wouldn't mind putting assits up from 1.75 up to 2 as long as everyone agreed.

BTW there is no way Jason Kidd is a top 10 nba player anymore.

[RIPRED]

For what it's worth, I think we should increase assists from 1.75 to 2.  Walker makes some good points.  I really think that the scoring system is a good one, and it's a more accurate model of the actual NBA.  That said, if Kidd and Nash and sub-20 players, than the re has to be a flaw in the scoring system.  It's a small one, but it is there.  Now there's a million reasons to not make this change.  I know that the system was clearly stated from the start.  I wonder though if anyone would have drafted any different had assists been worth slightly more from the start.  I think the benefit of a more accurate system outweighs the cost.

Or I can just shut my [dang] mouth. 

Sorry if it's bad form to bring this up mid-draft. 

I would have taken Ricky Davis over Mike Miller if assists were 2 points.

[The Walker Wiggle]

First off your math is wrong. Nash averaged 43.26 fantasy points per game last year. Jermaine O'neal averaged 43.2 fantasy points per game last year.

Actually, Jermaine O'Neal averaged 43.44 points per to Nash's 43.26 (22nd best).

Yahoo has slightly different totals for both. Jermaine O'neal scored 2997.6 fantasy points last year not 3,057 and Nash scored 3287.9 not 3,337.15.

You're right totals are slightly different, my mistake, didn't realize at some point you changed FTM to .5 from 1 and FTA to -.25 from .-.5?  (Which means two made FTs are worth 2.5 points while a FG is worth 2.7 points?)

[mkogav]

For what it's worth, I think we should increase assists from 1.75 to 2.  Walker makes some good points.  I really think that the scoring system is a good one, and it's a more accurate model of the actual NBA.  That said, if Kidd and Nash and sub-20 players, than the re has to be a flaw in the scoring system.  It's a small one, but it is there.  Now there's a million reasons to not make this change.  I know that the system was clearly stated from the start.  I wonder though if anyone would have drafted any different had assists been worth slightly more from the start.  I think the benefit of a more accurate system outweighs the cost.

Or I can just shut my [dang] mouth. 

Sorry if it's bad form to bring this up mid-draft. 

I would have taken Ricky Davis over Mike Miller if assists were 2 points.

We are 4+ rounds into the draft. It's too late to tweak the scoring system

There are no scoring systems which are perfect. It's impossible to truly develop a point representation of a player's value. There is no way to represent intangibles.

This is fantasy basketball, just deal with the system we have.


- Mk