FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking

[Moranis]

LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.

This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?

No. I don't think Luka was that far ahead of everyone else. He was ahead but not as far ahead.

What LeBron did in that Finals run was incredible leading Cleveland without Kyrie or K-Love and making CLE competitive against GSW. Luka had a lot more help around him in this series. He wasn't able to elevate his team the way LeBron did.

I think I agree with this - just think it's an interesting thought experiment, especially since it's essentially an unwritten rule at this point that you can't win Finals MVP if your team loses the series.

Also, not only was Luka not that far ahead of everyone else, but it was also a barely competitive gentleman?s sweep. I think you can only consider placing a loser as the Finals MVP if they?re both (a) far and away better than anyone on the winning team, and (b) it was an actual competitive series, likely 7 games.

A good example of just how little the point differential matters after the dust settles on the series, perhaps. 

I agree with you - but (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a bit of flu) coming into last night's game, Luka was leading the league in most of the counting stats that people place emphasis on in the post-season: points, rebounds, assists, etc.

for totals Luka was the playoff leader in points, rebounds, assists, and steals (and turnovers) .  He also played the most games (along with all Mavs that played every game).

[scaryjerry]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).

.

The defense is being overblown by a lot?
lol he was phenomenal defensively and the mavericks were hunting out Tatum.
Tatums playmaking and rebounding were good, but super overblown, can?t think of a single tough rebound he had in the series and thought the scorekeepers were pretty generous with his assists and can?t think of many memorable ones

[jpotter33]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).

.

The defense is being overblown by a lot?
lol he was phenomenal defensively and the mavericks were hunting out Tatum.
Tatums playmaking and rebounding were good, but super overblown, can?t think of a single tough rebound he had in the series and thought the scorekeepers were pretty generous with his assists and can?t think of many memorable ones

Simply untrue and has been disproven multiple times already, but keep on with this false narrative.

[tonydelk]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).

.

The defense is being overblown by a lot?
lol he was phenomenal defensively and the mavericks were hunting out Tatum.
Tatums playmaking and rebounding were good, but super overblown, can?t think of a single tough rebound he had in the series and thought the scorekeepers were pretty generous with his assists and can?t think of many memorable ones

Simply untrue and has been disproven multiple times already, but keep on with this false narrative.

It's tough to lead your team in pts, rebounds and assists the entire post season and not win the award.  JB is deserving but it would have been awesome if it was a tie.  JB got the edge because of his D IMO.  Tatum we better at the FT line as well. 

[scaryjerry]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).

.

The defense is being overblown by a lot?
lol he was phenomenal defensively and the mavericks were hunting out Tatum.
Tatums playmaking and rebounding were good, but super overblown, can?t think of a single tough rebound he had in the series and thought the scorekeepers were pretty generous with his assists and can?t think of many memorable ones

Simply untrue and has been disproven multiple times already, but keep on with this false narrative.

Not even meant to be a knock on Tatum, overall he?s a plus defender?the mavericks were targeting him, period.

[ozgod]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).

.

The defense is being overblown by a lot?
lol he was phenomenal defensively and the mavericks were hunting out Tatum.
Tatums playmaking and rebounding were good, but super overblown, can?t think of a single tough rebound he had in the series and thought the scorekeepers were pretty generous with his assists and can?t think of many memorable ones

Simply untrue and has been disproven multiple times already, but keep on with this false narrative.

Not even meant to be a knock on Tatum, overall he?s a plus defender?the mavericks were targeting him, period.

I think they were only hunting him in the sense that he was defending their big which was either Gafford or Lively, because the Cs wanted Horford on Derrick Jones Jr, so that if Luka called for the Dallas big to screen Tatum would be screened on to Luka because they would switch the screen. And if Luka called for Jones Jr to switch to try to get Horford on him Jones Jr isn't a lob threat so Horford would know that Luka would probably go for a stepback.

[ozgod]

Here's what the Jays had to say about the Finals MVP kerfuffle.

The Jays did it together. They should?ve been Finals co-MVPs. Officially, the honor went to Brown, who collected the Bill Russell Trophy after copping the Larry Bird bauble for Eastern Conference finals MVP. He won despite subpar shooting nights in the final two games (3 for 12 for 10 points in Game 4 and 7 for 23 for 21 points, 8 rebounds, and 6 assists in Game 5).

?We?ve been playing together for seven years now,? said Brown. ?We?ve been through a lot ? the losses, the expectations. The media have said all different types of things. We can?t play together. We are never going to win. We heard it all. But we just blocked it out, and we just kept going.

"I can't even put into words the emotions," Brown said. "It's just I'm blessed and I'm grateful. This was a full team effort. We had a great team. My teammates were great. They allowed me to lead us on both ends of ball, and we just came out and performed on our home floor. It's just amazing.

"You know, it could have gone to anybody. It could have gone to Jayson. Jayson, like I can't talk enough about his selflessness. ... I can't talk enough about his attitude. It's just how he approached not just this series or the Finals but just the playoffs in general. And we did it together as a team, and that was the most important thing."

?I trusted him. He trusted me, and we did it together. To get to this point and share that experience with JT is just awesome.?

Tatum seconded that notion.

?The main goal for us was to win a championship. We didn?t care who got Finals MVP,? said JT, who delivered the last rites to Dallas with 11 of his 31 points in the fourth quarter to go along with a final line that featured 11 assists and 8 rebounds.

?I know that I need him through this journey, and he needs me.?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/18/sports/chris-gasper-celtics-nba-championship/?p1=Article_Feed_AuthorQuery

[Roy H.]

Here's what the Jays had to say about the Finals MVP kerfuffle.

The Jays did it together. They should?ve been Finals co-MVPs. Officially, the honor went to Brown, who collected the Bill Russell Trophy after copping the Larry Bird bauble for Eastern Conference finals MVP. He won despite subpar shooting nights in the final two games (3 for 12 for 10 points in Game 4 and 7 for 23 for 21 points, 8 rebounds, and 6 assists in Game 5).

?We?ve been playing together for seven years now,? said Brown. ?We?ve been through a lot ? the losses, the expectations. The media have said all different types of things. We can?t play together. We are never going to win. We heard it all. But we just blocked it out, and we just kept going.

"I can't even put into words the emotions," Brown said. "It's just I'm blessed and I'm grateful. This was a full team effort. We had a great team. My teammates were great. They allowed me to lead us on both ends of ball, and we just came out and performed on our home floor. It's just amazing.

"You know, it could have gone to anybody. It could have gone to Jayson. Jayson, like I can't talk enough about his selflessness. ... I can't talk enough about his attitude. It's just how he approached not just this series or the Finals but just the playoffs in general. And we did it together as a team, and that was the most important thing."

?I trusted him. He trusted me, and we did it together. To get to this point and share that experience with JT is just awesome.?

Tatum seconded that notion.

?The main goal for us was to win a championship. We didn?t care who got Finals MVP,? said JT, who delivered the last rites to Dallas with 11 of his 31 points in the fourth quarter to go along with a final line that featured 11 assists and 8 rebounds.

?I know that I need him through this journey, and he needs me.?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/18/sports/chris-gasper-celtics-nba-championship/?p1=Article_Feed_AuthorQuery

On Instagram, JB responded to JT "we're both MVPs".  Which is true, and something all should accept.

[Vermont Green]

I admit that I am having a hard time with this.  I thought after Game 5, that Tatum would win the MVP award.  I was surprised that Brown won it.  For the series, Tatum had more points, rebounds and assists, while playing against double and triple teams all series.  Brown had a better FG% (worse 3P% and FT%), more steals, fewer TOV, more blocks, and a better overall +/- (many of these were pretty close).  I would say that overall, Brown had more impact on defense.

It is close, no matter how you slice it, but I don't know how you can look at the stats or just watch the games, and conclude that Brown was more valuable than Tatum.  Tatum is the better player, DAL knew this, that is why they focused on stopping him so much, and Tatum was the better player in the finals.  I would love to hear some of the voters explain their thinking.

The only thing that I can say is that relative to expectation, Brown probably exceeded expectation while Tatum probably came up short of expectation.  But MVP shouldn't be a handicapped selection.  The expectation for Tatum based on the season and his career, was higher than the expectation for Brown.  It is like comparing a 5 handicap golfer who shoots 3 over par with a scratch handicap golfer who shoots a 2 over par and saying the 5 handicap golfer did better.

[ozgod]

Here's what the Jays had to say about the Finals MVP kerfuffle.

The Jays did it together. They should?ve been Finals co-MVPs. Officially, the honor went to Brown, who collected the Bill Russell Trophy after copping the Larry Bird bauble for Eastern Conference finals MVP. He won despite subpar shooting nights in the final two games (3 for 12 for 10 points in Game 4 and 7 for 23 for 21 points, 8 rebounds, and 6 assists in Game 5).

?We?ve been playing together for seven years now,? said Brown. ?We?ve been through a lot ? the losses, the expectations. The media have said all different types of things. We can?t play together. We are never going to win. We heard it all. But we just blocked it out, and we just kept going.

"I can't even put into words the emotions," Brown said. "It's just I'm blessed and I'm grateful. This was a full team effort. We had a great team. My teammates were great. They allowed me to lead us on both ends of ball, and we just came out and performed on our home floor. It's just amazing.

"You know, it could have gone to anybody. It could have gone to Jayson. Jayson, like I can't talk enough about his selflessness. ... I can't talk enough about his attitude. It's just how he approached not just this series or the Finals but just the playoffs in general. And we did it together as a team, and that was the most important thing."

?I trusted him. He trusted me, and we did it together. To get to this point and share that experience with JT is just awesome.?

Tatum seconded that notion.

?The main goal for us was to win a championship. We didn?t care who got Finals MVP,? said JT, who delivered the last rites to Dallas with 11 of his 31 points in the fourth quarter to go along with a final line that featured 11 assists and 8 rebounds.

?I know that I need him through this journey, and he needs me.?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/18/sports/chris-gasper-celtics-nba-championship/?p1=Article_Feed_AuthorQuery

On Instagram, JB responded to JT "we're both MVPs".  Which is true, and something all should accept.

Yup! Glad he's not salty about it. Either of them could have won it really.



The bigger prize was the championship, and JT had this to say as well about how Jaylen had always had to put up with having his name in trade rumors whenever the Celtics failed in the postseason:

[Stevens] was the man, sources said, who said no or decided not to pursue trades for Paul George (2017), Jimmy Butler (2018-19), Kawhi Leonard (2019) Anthony Davis (2019) and Kevin Durant (2022).

Occasionally, these trade discussions would become public, forcing Stevens to try to reassure Brown of the organization's commitment to him.

Tatum often wondered how Brown dealt with hearing his name in trade rumors.

"It would bother me," Tatum said. "Not talking from a pedestal, but I didn't necessarily know what that felt like. But I could just imagine all the hard work that he put in. I saw it every day. Even the strongest-minded person, that would affect you at some point. So I always felt for him in that regard.

"I think now that maybe I could have been better. I never said too much. I always have stayed out of that."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40377901/long-awaited-confetti-champagne-boston-celtics-championship-locker-room-wanted-give-us-no

So in context it's easy to see how the team, and JT, would be happy for JB, who didn't even make All-NBA this year, and isn't in consideration for the Olympic team.

[jpotter33]

This playoffs run and these MVPs are going to do wonders for JB?s standing across the league. Hoopshype have JT and JB as 7 and 8 on their ranking of best players going into next year, though they admit that availability weighed heavily in their rankings (knocking Embiid way down).

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-ranking-top-100-players/

[Moranis]

This playoffs run and these MVPs are going to do wonders for JB?s standing across the league. Hoopshype have JT and JB as 7 and 8 on their ranking of best players going into next year, though they admit that availability weighed heavily in their rankings (knocking Embiid way down).

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-ranking-top-100-players/

Brunson ahead of Tatum is total and utter nonsense.

[Phantom255x]

This playoffs run and these MVPs are going to do wonders for JB?s standing across the league. Hoopshype have JT and JB as 7 and 8 on their ranking of best players going into next year, though they admit that availability weighed heavily in their rankings (knocking Embiid way down).

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-ranking-top-100-players/

Brunson ahead of Tatum is total and utter nonsense.

Frankly I think they got the Top-5 spot on, but Brunson should be behind Tatum, Davis AND Brown. We can debate Brown and Brunson but I also factor in defense. Brunson does nothing on that end either, he'll get heavily exposed against superior teams like Luka did in the Finals on that end. In fact he kind of did in the Pacers series particularly the road games. AD is a phenomenal two-way talent when healthy, though idk if the rankings factor health or not.

[ozgod]

Just another sign of how tight these two are, and kind of how JB has become the spiritual leader of the team post-Smartacus. This 8 second video was before Game 5 tipped off.


https://x.com/CelticsUnite18/status/1803488285852832005

And just think, for years JB has always been seen as the Robin to Tatum's Batman, all the talking heads talk about shipping him off instead of Tatum whenever the team fails, it's always Tatum who makes the All-NBA teams and All-Star teams, it's easy to build resentment, especially since he's the guy that was drafted first. Even if on the overall body of work, Tatum has been better, it's still hard for a competitor to accept that. I think once they all accepted that they can't do it alone, they have to be together, that's when this team went to another level.

[Atzar]

Just another sign of how tight these two are, and kind of how JB has become the spiritual leader of the team post-Smartacus. This 8 second video was before Game 5 tipped off.


https://x.com/CelticsUnite18/status/1803488285852832005

We talk plenty about JB's improvement as a basketball player.  His growth as a leader has been just as impressive.  I think his controlled aggression was a defining characteristic of this playoff run, and our whole team played with it.