Author Topic: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking  (Read 16622 times)

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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2024, 02:53:24 AM »

Offline ozgod

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First player in NBA history to lead a champion in playoff points, rebounds, and assists and not win Finals MVP since the award was implemented.

That?s tough. Let him get it next year!
or they never get back and Tatum is forever shafted. The Finals MVP is a legacy award. Tatum is the player that will have the better legacy.  Giving it to anyone other than him, unless it isn't close hurts Tatum's legacy and it cheapens the award for the future. The leading scorer, rebounder, and assist generator who also happens to be the best player on the team, who takes the main focus of opposing defenses, and is asked to do so much, doesn't win. Might as well just not give the award out. It just doesn't mean anything.  Tatum drives the entire team and was better statistically.  Feel bad for him. He didn't get the legacy award he needed and this seems like 2015 all over again i.e. worse statistical player gets credit for holding other team best player to 30 ppg, while the guy most responsible for the team even being there and with the better stats, doesn't win.

Yeah, Iguodala winning it was wild. I mean, the Warriors don?t win it without his defense on Lebron and I wanted Iggy to win it because of that. But in retrospect, I was a prisoner of the moment.

I thought JT deserved it, but I?m not upset that JB won it. I would?ve been fine too if Jrue won it, TBH

I just hope that JT's not upset. He did get All-NBA first team at least.
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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2024, 02:57:34 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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TBH I wanted Jrue to win Finals MVP aka Andre Iguodala style (not one of the leading stars on the team, but a guy who is figuratively your utility man)


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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2024, 04:03:49 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Felt Brown edged out Tatum just slightly. Tatum only out played Brown one game (game 5). Game 4 everyone was bad so I throw that game out.

I disagree.  I would evaluate it as:

- Porzingis was the MVP of game 1 (Brown played better then Tatum)
- Jrue was the MVP of game 2 (Tatum played better then Brown with the near triple double)
- Brown was the MVP of game 3 (Brown played better then Tatum)
- Tatum was the best player in the bloodbath that was game 4 (Tatum played better then Brown)
- Tatum was the MVP of game 4 (Tatum played better then Brown)

1: That means Brown was the best player on the team in one game (game 3) and Tatum was the best player on the team in two games (game 4 and 5)

2: Tatum played better then Brown in 3 out of 5 games with two of those games (3 and 5) being critical closeout games

3: Tatum led the team in points, rebounds and assists in the finals and through the entire playoffs 

4: In the game 5 victory that actually sealed the deal and secured the title, Tatum was by far the best player on the court, scoring half of the Celtics 4th quarter points on his own and outduelling Luka - on of the greatest offensive players on the planet - to fight off the Mavs attempt at a 4th quarter comeback.

I do acknowledge that Jaylen's defence in this series was huge and increased his contribution to more than just what is shown in the box scores, but I do feel that is also the case for Tatum who's mere presence on the court draws so much defensive attention that it makes every other Celtic's job easier on the offensive end. 

To me the two were very close overall, but the key points that really clearly pushed it in Tatum's favour for me were game 4 and game 5. These were two potential closeout games that the team really needed, and Tatum was very clearly the best player on the team in both of those games.  In game 4 he was pretty much the only starter who actually showed up, and in game 5 he was just playing at an MVP level all night long.

At the end of the day though I'm so happy we won the chip that the debating all day over who should have won FMVP seems insignificant and petty.  If anything we should be happiest that we have two players who are great enough to even make that the FMVP such a debate to begin with. 

I feel a little bad for Tatum knowing that he brought so much more energy then everybody else over the last two days and didn't get personally rewarded for it.  But then if Tatum won I would feel bad for Brown knowing that he played so hard defensively the entire series and made so many big plays and didn't get rewarded for it.  Yet at the end of the day I doubt either of them really cares all that much, given that both players will look at their championship rings as being well and truly all the reward they could ever possibly ask for.

Plus Tatum has been in the spotlight getting the recognition from the day he entered the league, while Jaylen really does gets ignored and treated like an afterthought far more then he should - of the two of them I feel like Jaylen kinda did need it more.  His reaction to the ECF MVP (the look of genuine gleeful shock on and his "I never win XXX" comment) actually got me pretty emotional and made me really feel for the guy. 

Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2024, 05:56:22 AM »

Online Roy H.

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First player in NBA history to lead a champion in playoff points, rebounds, and assists and not win Finals MVP since the award was implemented.

That?s tough. Let him get it next year!
or they never get back and Tatum is forever shafted. The Finals MVP is a legacy award. Tatum is the player that will have the better legacy.  Giving it to anyone other than him, unless it isn't close hurts Tatum's legacy and it cheapens the award for the future. The leading scorer, rebounder, and assist generator who also happens to be the best player on the team, who takes the main focus of opposing defenses, and is asked to do so much, doesn't win. Might as well just not give the award out. It just doesn't mean anything.  Tatum drives the entire team and was better statistically.  Feel bad for him. He didn't get the legacy award he needed and this seems like 2015 all over again i.e. worse statistical player gets credit for holding other team best player to 30 ppg, while the guy most responsible for the team even being there and with the better stats, doesn't win.

Yeah, Iguodala winning it was wild. I mean, the Warriors don?t win it without his defense on Lebron and I wanted Iggy to win it because of that. But in retrospect, I was a prisoner of the moment.

I thought JT deserved it, but I?m not upset that JB won it. I would?ve been fine too if Jrue won it, TBH

Iguodala getting it that year was the right call.  His entry into the starting lineup and defense on Lebron changed the series.

I would have given it to JT because it was close and JT had a big game in the clincher.  But, through the first three games, JB was the MVP, and voters recognized that.


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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2024, 05:57:53 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Felt Brown edged out Tatum just slightly. Tatum only out played Brown one game (game 5). Game 4 everyone was bad so I throw that game out.

I disagree.  I would evaluate it as:

- Porzingis was the MVP of game 1 (Brown played better then Tatum)
- Jrue was the MVP of game 2 (Tatum played better then Brown with the near triple double)
- Brown was the MVP of game 3 (Brown played better then Tatum)
- Tatum was the best player in the bloodbath that was game 4 (Tatum played better then Brown)
- Tatum was the MVP of game 4 (Tatum played better then Brown)

1: That means Brown was the best player on the team in one game (game 3) and Tatum was the best player on the team in two games (game 4 and 5)

2: Tatum played better then Brown in 3 out of 5 games with two of those games (3 and 5) being critical closeout games

3: Tatum led the team in points, rebounds and assists in the finals and through the entire playoffs 

4: In the game 5 victory that actually sealed the deal and secured the title, Tatum was by far the best player on the court, scoring half of the Celtics 4th quarter points on his own and outduelling Luka - on of the greatest offensive players on the planet - to fight off the Mavs attempt at a 4th quarter comeback.

I do acknowledge that Jaylen's defence in this series was huge and increased his contribution to more than just what is shown in the box scores, but I do feel that is also the case for Tatum who's mere presence on the court draws so much defensive attention that it makes every other Celtic's job easier on the offensive end. 

To me the two were very close overall, but the key points that really clearly pushed it in Tatum's favour for me were game 4 and game 5. These were two potential closeout games that the team really needed, and Tatum was very clearly the best player on the team in both of those games.  In game 4 he was pretty much the only starter who actually showed up, and in game 5 he was just playing at an MVP level all night long.

At the end of the day though I'm so happy we won the chip that the debating all day over who should have won FMVP seems insignificant and petty.  If anything we should be happiest that we have two players who are great enough to even make that the FMVP such a debate to begin with. 

I feel a little bad for Tatum knowing that he brought so much more energy then everybody else over the last two days and didn't get personally rewarded for it.  But then if Tatum won I would feel bad for Brown knowing that he played so hard defensively the entire series and made so many big plays and didn't get rewarded for it.  Yet at the end of the day I doubt either of them really cares all that much, given that both players will look at their championship rings as being well and truly all the reward they could ever possibly ask for.

Plus Tatum has been in the spotlight getting the recognition from the day he entered the league, while Jaylen really does gets ignored and treated like an afterthought far more then he should - of the two of them I feel like Jaylen kinda did need it more.  His reaction to the ECF MVP (the look of genuine gleeful shock on and his "I never win XXX" comment) actually got me pretty emotional and made me really feel for the guy.

Why should anybody get credit for Game 4?


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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2024, 06:31:23 AM »

Online Moranis

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First player in NBA history to lead a champion in playoff points, rebounds, and assists and not win Finals MVP since the award was implemented.

That?s tough. Let him get it next year!
or they never get back and Tatum is forever shafted. The Finals MVP is a legacy award. Tatum is the player that will have the better legacy.  Giving it to anyone other than him, unless it isn't close hurts Tatum's legacy and it cheapens the award for the future. The leading scorer, rebounder, and assist generator who also happens to be the best player on the team, who takes the main focus of opposing defenses, and is asked to do so much, doesn't win. Might as well just not give the award out. It just doesn't mean anything.  Tatum drives the entire team and was better statistically.  Feel bad for him. He didn't get the legacy award he needed and this seems like 2015 all over again i.e. worse statistical player gets credit for holding other team best player to 30 ppg, while the guy most responsible for the team even being there and with the better stats, doesn't win.

Yeah, Iguodala winning it was wild. I mean, the Warriors don?t win it without his defense on Lebron and I wanted Iggy to win it because of that. But in retrospect, I was a prisoner of the moment.

I thought JT deserved it, but I?m not upset that JB won it. I would?ve been fine too if Jrue won it, TBH

Iguodala getting it that year was the right call.  His entry into the starting lineup and defense on Lebron changed the series.

I would have given it to JT because it was close and JT had a big game in the clincher.  But, through the first three games, JB was the MVP, and voters recognized that.
the last 2 games of that series, Lebron had 40, 14, 11 and 32, 18, 9. That is pparently mvp winning defense.  Now game 4 was Lebron's worst output of the series and that is the first game Iggy first started. That is probably the game he won the award and then they didn't care anymore. Seems similar to this series. Brown was great in game 3 and the voters made up their minds at that point. 

I did find it interesting thst the guy from Boston and 3 of the 4 ESPN voters were the ones that voted for Tatum.  The other guys/gals including the Dallas writer all voted for Brown.
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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2024, 06:35:12 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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First player in NBA history to lead a champion in playoff points, rebounds, and assists and not win Finals MVP since the award was implemented.

That?s tough. Let him get it next year!
or they never get back and Tatum is forever shafted. The Finals MVP is a legacy award. Tatum is the player that will have the better legacy.  Giving it to anyone other than him, unless it isn't close hurts Tatum's legacy and it cheapens the award for the future. The leading scorer, rebounder, and assist generator who also happens to be the best player on the team, who takes the main focus of opposing defenses, and is asked to do so much, doesn't win. Might as well just not give the award out. It just doesn't mean anything.  Tatum drives the entire team and was better statistically.  Feel bad for him. He didn't get the legacy award he needed and this seems like 2015 all over again i.e. worse statistical player gets credit for holding other team best player to 30 ppg, while the guy most responsible for the team even being there and with the better stats, doesn't win.

Yeah, Iguodala winning it was wild. I mean, the Warriors don?t win it without his defense on Lebron and I wanted Iggy to win it because of that. But in retrospect, I was a prisoner of the moment.

I thought JT deserved it, but I?m not upset that JB won it. I would?ve been fine too if Jrue won it, TBH

Iguodala getting it that year was the right call.  His entry into the starting lineup and defense on Lebron changed the series.

I would have given it to JT because it was close and JT had a big game in the clincher.  But, through the first three games, JB was the MVP, and voters recognized that.
the last 2 games of that series, Lebron had 40, 14, 11 and 32, 18, 9. That is pparently mvp winning defense.  Now game 4 was Lebron's worst output of the series and that is the first game Iggy first started. That is probably the game he won the award and then they didn't care anymore. Seems similar to this series. Brown was great in game 3 and the voters made up their minds at that point. 

I did find it interesting thst the guy from Boston and 3 of the 4 ESPN voters were the ones that voted for Tatum.  The other guys/gals including the Dallas writer all voted for Brown.

But, as you and Roy have both alluded to, FMVP is a fairly minor award that is largely driven by narrative. The 50/50 split in voting also reflects that.
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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2024, 06:39:37 AM »

Online Roy H.

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First player in NBA history to lead a champion in playoff points, rebounds, and assists and not win Finals MVP since the award was implemented.

That?s tough. Let him get it next year!
or they never get back and Tatum is forever shafted. The Finals MVP is a legacy award. Tatum is the player that will have the better legacy.  Giving it to anyone other than him, unless it isn't close hurts Tatum's legacy and it cheapens the award for the future. The leading scorer, rebounder, and assist generator who also happens to be the best player on the team, who takes the main focus of opposing defenses, and is asked to do so much, doesn't win. Might as well just not give the award out. It just doesn't mean anything.  Tatum drives the entire team and was better statistically.  Feel bad for him. He didn't get the legacy award he needed and this seems like 2015 all over again i.e. worse statistical player gets credit for holding other team best player to 30 ppg, while the guy most responsible for the team even being there and with the better stats, doesn't win.

Yeah, Iguodala winning it was wild. I mean, the Warriors don?t win it without his defense on Lebron and I wanted Iggy to win it because of that. But in retrospect, I was a prisoner of the moment.

I thought JT deserved it, but I?m not upset that JB won it. I would?ve been fine too if Jrue won it, TBH

Iguodala getting it that year was the right call.  His entry into the starting lineup and defense on Lebron changed the series.

I would have given it to JT because it was close and JT had a big game in the clincher.  But, through the first three games, JB was the MVP, and voters recognized that.
the last 2 games of that series, Lebron had 40, 14, 11 and 32, 18, 9. That is pparently mvp winning defense.  Now game 4 was Lebron's worst output of the series and that is the first game Iggy first started. That is probably the game he won the award and then they didn't care anymore. Seems similar to this series. Brown was great in game 3 and the voters made up their minds at that point. 

I did find it interesting thst the guy from Boston and 3 of the 4 ESPN voters were the ones that voted for Tatum.  The other guys/gals including the Dallas writer all voted for Brown.

Now do Lebron's FG% when guarded by Iguodala.

Quote
http://When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports. Those are steller defensive numbers.

But, Curry scored 58 more points on 51 more shots, so crown him?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 07:22:17 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2024, 06:48:52 AM »

Offline jambr380

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It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2024, 06:57:32 AM »

Offline Who

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LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.

Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2024, 07:00:47 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.
This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?
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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2024, 07:03:40 AM »

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LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.
This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?
No. I don't think Luka was that far ahead of everyone else. He was ahead but not as far ahead.

What LeBron did in that Finals run was incredible leading Cleveland without Kyrie or K-Love and making CLE competitive against GSW. Luka had a lot more help around him in this series. He wasn't able to elevate his team the way LeBron did.

Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2024, 07:19:38 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.
This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?
No. I don't think Luka was that far ahead of everyone else. He was ahead but not as far ahead.

What LeBron did in that Finals run was incredible leading Cleveland without Kyrie or K-Love and making CLE competitive against GSW. Luka had a lot more help around him in this series. He wasn't able to elevate his team the way LeBron did.
I think I agree with this - just think it's an interesting thought experiment, especially since it's essentially an unwritten rule at this point that you can't win Finals MVP if your team loses the series.
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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2024, 07:23:30 AM »

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It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

I agree with this and it always gets lost in the shuffle. Like yo, the C?s were sleepwalking in that first half and Tatum carried. In the 2nd half, things started to click but Tatum sustained the C?s until the team woke up with a barrage

Also, sure, Jaylen hit a huge jumper at the end of game 3. But you know who also scored? Tatum with the monster dunk on Kyrie and someone else (great but risky pass from White too)

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Re: FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2024, 07:25:41 AM »

Online Roy H.

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It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments. 


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